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Post by rexxer on Mar 18, 2009 20:04:24 GMT -5
I'm ready to make be a few sizing dies to reduce the dia. in the -250 and 275 Parkers. Any ideas on how much spring back? Thanks Rex
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Post by smokeeter on Mar 18, 2009 20:09:21 GMT -5
If you have capabilities of making your own sizing dies that's great because most bullets size differently and it'll be a trial and error procedure until you get the size you require for your particular barrel.
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Post by rexxer on Mar 18, 2009 20:39:21 GMT -5
Thanks Smoke
I know it will take some trial and error but there should be some numbers relatively close. The parkers must have some kind or tendencies going through the die.
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Post by smokeeter on Mar 18, 2009 21:05:21 GMT -5
Rex, I haven't seen the parkers but I suspect the jacket is similar to the regular xtp's. For my barrel which is .4505 land to land I down size the regular .452 xtps in a .450 die, the bullet will not go down my barrel tight enough I knurl then run it thru a .4505 die and the bullet seats perfectly. If I use heavier jacketed bullets like xtp mags or noslers I have to go down with a .4493 die then knurl then run them thru the .4505 die, I refer to it as my finish die.I realize that the xtp is starting out bigger than the parker so that accounts for more springback.
How do the stock parkers fit in your barrel and what is the size of your barrel? You may get away with a .450 die and just make the parkers round and luck out, the problem is if it's too big you cannot make it smaller.
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Post by Dave W on Mar 18, 2009 21:20:34 GMT -5
I ran a 250BE through my .4486. Best I can do is give you measurements with my caliper which is not ideal for this. Close to .4504 before sizing, .450 as close as I can tell after sizing, my die was made for the 250 SST. Like Paul said, and from what I have found, different bullets come out different sizes. For sizing and knurling I would think a .448 would cover the Parkers, SST's, XTP's. The thicker jacketed bullets like Hawk or Barnes all coppers might work better in a .449, less spring back with the previous two. Dependent upon bore size of course. If I was making a die I think I would go with something heavier than what I have.  The reason being the bearing surface does not come out uniform from base to ogive, harley posted the same thing with his Lee die. Smokeeter uses a bigger diameter die and gets a uniform size for the length of the bearing surface, from what he wrote in previous posts. This doesn't seem to hurt accuracy, it just annoys me.   He also reports less spring back with the heavier die. I don't know about the Lee dies but my die is tapered on the interior so that you can start a bullet into it all the way before it starts sizing down. |
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Post by edge on Mar 18, 2009 21:43:20 GMT -5
IMO, anyone with a lathe is In Like Flynn I would grab a piece of steel at least 1 inch in diameter if you are using an arbor press....or 7/8 threaded rod if using a Lee reloading press. It must be longer than your longest bullet. Turn the OD to any diameter but make sure it is a good round diameter because you will need it later. Bore a hole with a 1 or 1 1/2 degree taper, and then bore thru 0.0448 Push a bullet through and measure. ( use oil ) If you used an oil hardening steel then harden it as it will last much longer. Adjust the straight section to fit the various bullets that you want to use. I would suggest that you polish the ID with Scotch-Brite at a minimum or the copper may gall too much. edge. PS the harder and smoother you make it the less the bullet will distort and gall in a manner than you don't want! |
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Post by Harley on Mar 18, 2009 21:48:44 GMT -5
Hey, I just got pretty excited, here. If I understand correctly, Smokeeter "finishes" his already knurled bullets in the .4505 die. I never thought of that; I resize thru the .448 die, then knurl for a guestimate at the muzzle. Doing it Smoke's way, if it works for me in my own .450 die, would mean absolute uniformity among my knurled bullets and that can't be bad! I'll check it out in the morning.
Coincidentally, I just came up from the basement where I resized both Parker's and XTP's. Like DaveW says, the .448 die works for both. I, just for luck, run the 275 Parker's first through the .450, then the .448; but, I first use the .450 on the 300 gn XTP's almost out of necessity. After the .450, the XTP's are still a hard press through the .448; I do them a total of three times.
I can't address the springback question; the only time I tried to measure it I recorded nothing significant. I do think it's a non-issue if you knurl. Just resize small enough that any springback is hidden in the knurling.
The Lee die is tapered, I guess; I can drop a bullet into it flush with the top of the die.
Harley
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Post by rexxer on Mar 18, 2009 21:51:58 GMT -5
I'm going to cut a few dies but I started out with one today. I want to play around with knurled and non-knurled bullets. I cut the first die at .4495 with a 1/2 inch lead in taper at .2 degrees.My present bore is .4497. I loaded the 250 Parkers fairly easy to night,guessing 25-30 loading force on the unsized .450 Parker bullets. The 275 Parkers mike 4505 and can't get them loaded. I haven't had a chance to resize the 275s.
Do you think it has less strain on the jacket pushing one direction over the other thru the die?
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Post by Harley on Mar 18, 2009 21:57:33 GMT -5
That's a nice question, Rex, about jacket strain. I've always pushed nose down and had consistently good results on both targets and game; and that direction protects the tip.
Harley
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Post by rexxer on Mar 18, 2009 21:58:10 GMT -5
Lloyd I agree it is a non issue if you knurl. What I used today was a block of hardened 10v, after cutting bore and taper I lapped and polished with a diamond compound. It looks kinda pretty .
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Post by Harley on Mar 18, 2009 21:59:51 GMT -5
I bet "pretty" is an understatement.
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Post by rexxer on Mar 18, 2009 22:25:42 GMT -5
I will just run a few thru this die tomorrow and see what happens. I will post information tomorrow if someone wants to know.
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Post by Dave W on Mar 18, 2009 22:47:15 GMT -5
I will just run a few thru this die tomorrow and see what happens. I will post information tomorrow if someone wants to know. Please do so. Pics would be nice to. |
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Post by screwbolts on Mar 19, 2009 5:57:59 GMT -5
FWIW: LEE markets a press with 1.250 thread for dies, RCBS and Hornidy both market the very same press just different paint with 1.5" thread. I have the LEE Classic Cast w/ 50bmg dies. I also had setting right next to it one of the expensive red ones with 1.5 thread. I like the LEE so much my neightbor now owns the Hornady. I have sized over 4000 surpluse 50bmg projos with the LEE, It has better mecanical advantage than the RCBS/Hornady. FWIW
Ken
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Post by Al on Mar 19, 2009 16:24:11 GMT -5
Can't help on the Parkers, but I just sized some 300gr XTP's, regular and mags, die is 2" od x 1 3/4" long hardened 52100, 61rc, .4505 ID with a 8 micro finish. I honed a .4525 c-bore x 1/2" deep so they would start straight.
Bullets lubed with RCBS case lube on a lube pad (just like doing brass cases) pushed thru nose first with a 7/16" brass rod in a 3 ton arbor press, both sprung back .0008.
I didn't try running them thru twice thou, but that may shrink them another tenth or two, but I have this die nailed pretty for good snug fit in my bore with these XTP's.
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Post by Dave W on Mar 19, 2009 20:01:53 GMT -5
Can't help on the Parkers, but I just sized some 300gr XTP's, regular and mags, die is 2" od x 1 3/4" long hardened 52100, 61rc, .4505 ID with a 8 micro finish. I honed a .4525 c-bore x 1/2" deep so they would start straight. Bullets lubed with RCBS case lube on a lube pad (just like doing brass cases) pushed thru nose first with a 7/16" brass rod in a 3 ton arbor press, both sprung back .0008. I didn't try running them thru twice thou, but that may shrink them another tenth or two, but I have this die nailed pretty for good snug fit in my bore with these XTP's. Al, is the bearing surface uniform top to bottom. Thanks. |
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Post by Al on Mar 20, 2009 1:14:30 GMT -5
Dave, a tenth heavier across the cannuler for some reason, maybe a second pass would eliminate that.
I had fits with inconsistant spring back in the beginning using 3/4" stock, but no problems so far with the heavier stock.
The 3 ton press isn't needed either, just happens to be what we have in the shop.
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Post by rexxer on Mar 20, 2009 9:33:10 GMT -5
Sorry, I had the flu so I couldn't post yesterday. I ran a 275 Parker thru my .4495 die this morning. The Parkers measured from top to bottom-.451-.4505-.451. After running thru die I seen little change or no change. Bullets were still slightly out of round.Top and bottom still slightly larger than middle.I'm going down to a .449 die and try that next!
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Post by craigf on Mar 20, 2009 9:37:50 GMT -5
To those who are making dies, what equipment is needed to do it correctly and how is it done? Is this something that a novice can accomplish?
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Post by rexxer on Mar 20, 2009 10:15:49 GMT -5
Honestly Craig, without a wire e.d.m. ,jig bore , jig grinder ,or lathe its a tuff job to do. Even then the steel should be heat treated and polished when done. The advantages to jig grinder and wire e.d.m. are,they are used to machine hardened steel. You don't have to worry if a hole will grow,shrink.or go egged shaped during heat treat. All you have to do is polish.
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Post by edge on Mar 20, 2009 10:40:00 GMT -5
I just had this idea for someone without a lathe.
Get a flat piece of steel.
Buy a #1 Morse Taper reamer ( $50 - $60 HSS ).
Drill a bunch of holes say 7/16 ( 0.4375 ) diameter thru. and leave 1/2 inch of steel between holes.
Ream a hole till you start to enlarge the bottom and measure the hole.
For every 0.020 deeper you go the bottom will get about 0.001 larger in diameter.
Since you will be using mild steel each hole may not last for more than a hundred bullets, or it may last for 10 or 1,000 I don't know.
But you could make a few of each size going a few thousandths at a time and make any size you want.
edge.
PS CLAMP the steel down, you can't hold this from spinning!
The warning picture on the machine of the finger getting cut off applies to this operation!
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Post by rexxer on Mar 20, 2009 13:44:55 GMT -5
Bullet dia. top to bottom .451-.4505-.451---Die.449---bullet is now .4501-.4504
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Post by rexxer on Mar 20, 2009 14:39:46 GMT -5
If you have capabilities of making your own sizing dies that's great because most bullets size differently and it'll be a trial and error procedure until you get the size you require for your particular barrel. Smoke So far I'm thinking your right on! |
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Post by smokeeter on Mar 20, 2009 18:33:16 GMT -5
If you have capabilities of making your own sizing dies that's great because most bullets size differently and it'll be a trial and error procedure until you get the size you require for your particular barrel. Smoke So far I'm thinking your right on! As my buddy Nacho Libre would say.... Not so eeeeasay. But sure is fun when it comes together. |
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Post by rexxer on Mar 23, 2009 7:56:23 GMT -5
Today-sizing die at .4478 Bullet came out at .449-.4492
Much harder to push thru!
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Post by edge on Mar 23, 2009 9:36:04 GMT -5
I assume that that is still using Parkers.
If you have any XTP's or SST's you might give them a try as I am pretty sure they will come out a little different than the Parkers.
edge.
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Post by rbinar on Mar 23, 2009 19:28:33 GMT -5
8-)All this talk about sizing has put an idea into my head. The new 45 caliber barrel fits the TMZ bullet like this.  The Parker bullet is equally good fitting and this is the reverse of the first image showing the Parker in the barrel and the TMZ on the side.  I then thought that's good two bullets to shoot in one barrel without a lot of trouble but how do some others fit? I tried these:  As you can tell there is a few thousand of the Shockwaves to use so it would be good (and cheap) to try them. Then we could compare three different bullets from one barrel. That might be some useful information. In the barrel they will start but are too hard to push down. Now if someone had a good .450 sizing die maybe we could deal. Anyone need any Shockwaves? |
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Post by Harley on Mar 23, 2009 19:39:44 GMT -5
RB, did you push the TMZ and the Parker that far into the barrel by hand? If so, I'd think they would be too loose.
Harley
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Post by Al on Mar 23, 2009 19:44:37 GMT -5
I have acouple of my dies headed to heat treat in the morning. No problem to hone one out for whatever size you'd need.
pm me your e-mail and I'll snap a pic of one in the morning for you.
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Post by rbinar on Mar 23, 2009 20:18:45 GMT -5
RB, did you push the TMZ and the Parker that far into the barrel by hand? If so, I'd think they would be too loose. Harley Yes I pushed them in by hand the TMZ took some effort the Parker less but both can be knurled to make a perfect fit but the TMZ may not need it. |
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He also reports less spring back with the heavier die.
