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Post by dave d. on Sept 13, 2009 17:46:23 GMT -5
:)guys i was talking to rb and he will be converting 45-70 encore barrels chambers to fit a breechplug.bergara i think sells them for less then $200 and rbs work is right around $80 so for $280 you have a 38" long very nice muzzleloader.the barrel's are 24"s long and i believe 24 twist.so how easy is this you order the barrel have it shipped to him and for $80 plus shipping its back in your hands and ready to shoot.now there's one thing rb is not gauranteeing any accuracy that is up to you.
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Post by Dave W on Sept 13, 2009 19:22:02 GMT -5
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Post by rbinar on Sept 13, 2009 19:49:38 GMT -5
:DAs dave says it's possible. A board member (tslc) asked me if I could convert a 45-70 and I told him possibly. He was brave enough to buy one on the chance I would be able to make it work.
The final product worked out pretty good. I'll provide a picture or three later.
As it stands now the barrels are an after market 45-70 1 in 20 twist. The only draw back is the barrel comes as is. Since the maker makes no promise of accuracy neither will I. However if you happen to have an Encore it's the most economical way to go 45 caliber smokeless.
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Post by squirrelhawker on Sept 14, 2009 4:11:01 GMT -5
:DAs dave says it's possible. A board member (tslc) asked me if I could convert a 45-70 and I told him possibly. He was brave enough to buy one on the chance I would be able to make it work. The final product worked out pretty good. I'll provide a picture or three later. As it stands now the barrels are an after market 45-70 1 in 20 twist. The only draw back is the barrel comes as is. Since the maker makes no promise of accuracy neither will I. However if you happen to have an Encore it's the most economical way to go 45 caliber smokeless. Hey...whats going on here?? Somebody stole my idea?? The only problem with that statement is you posted this stuff two years ago..ha ha. I posted this on Mod Muzz. and DW was quick to show me it was done before  oh well.. Funny how people think alike.. I am not a machinist...my buddy is..but I am an engineer of sorts.. my buddies call me an afro- engineer..whatever that means?? ;D Funny...not that it makes any difference..but I never viewed or heard of those threads til this morn when I read DW's post and links to them ;D I dont think I ever even post anything on this board. Whoever is making these here..EDGE?? We should compare notes!! Check the link DW provided . This is the second design I came up with. The first one had too large of a powder cavity and it seems...accuracy wise..you want to keep the bullet/sabot away from the throat area. I think I read( this morn) in a post DW provided..that you dont want the plug to be able to move easily..why not? Doesnt hurt any thing. I have only shot mine about thirty times but it looks promising. |
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Post by squirrelhawker on Sept 14, 2009 4:50:07 GMT -5
By the way...I am not looking to sell mine! But my machinist buddy will for $79 each..ha ha ..... only kidding!! ;D
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Post by 161 on Sept 14, 2009 7:09:14 GMT -5
Would you be able to do the same thing with a New England Arms/ H&R 45-70 Barrel??
Thanks
161
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Post by squirrelhawker on Sept 14, 2009 7:48:02 GMT -5
Would you be able to do the same thing with a New England Arms/ H&R 45-70 Barrel?? Thanks 161 I will jump in here to say as far as getting any "accessory" barrels for H&R SB2 frames.. they are scarce. Didnt have any last time I checked. Also it is their policy to require the receiver to be sent in for "fitting". price is good..around $100 for 22" 45-70..but as I said availability is poor. As DD mentioned, the Bergara sounds like a good platform... or an actual TC. They have the 20" KATAHDIN like mine or a 24" with sights I think! Also American made FWIW... |
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Post by lwh723 on Sept 14, 2009 8:14:37 GMT -5
I think this could be a huge boost to smokeless muzzleloading...especially 45 shooting. All my friends are really impressed with my 45PCNR setup, but they're not particularly interested in dropping $700+ to get a rig setup.
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Post by rangeball on Sept 14, 2009 9:02:24 GMT -5
If I remember right CVA guarantees MOA with the bergara barrels on their optima elite. I know of one other member who has done this, rebuilt the plug to shoot smokeless, with great results.
Bergara also has several video clips on their website showing the process they go through in their manufacturing to produce quality barrels.
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Post by edge on Sept 14, 2009 11:12:27 GMT -5
The H&R 45-70 barrel leaves something to be desired due to reverse bore taper! The bore is almost always tightest at the breech and larger near the muzzle. It is not impossible to get good ML accuracy, but IMO it will probably require more load testing than a from a barrel tighter at the muzzle. edge. dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=4648 |
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Post by edge on Sept 14, 2009 16:12:00 GMT -5
I did want to add one thing.
If you are using a non threaded breechplug NEVER open the breech after a misfire, especially if using BP or subs!!!
If it is a hangfire and not a misfire, then the breechplug can easily become the projectile and hit you!!!!
edge.
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Post by mshm99 on Sept 14, 2009 18:50:40 GMT -5
Can it be done on a 45/70 contender barrel?
mshm
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tslc
Forkhorn
Posts: 66
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Post by tslc on Sept 14, 2009 20:16:29 GMT -5
I will post a report when I get a chance to shoot it. I have a lot going on for the next few weeks but will try to get to it soon. What got me thinking about it was Edge talked about converting an 45/70 H&R barrel a few years ago. I do not know if he ever did it though. If you look in the classified section there was a converted Encore 45/70 barrel a few months ago and that got me thinking about it again......Terry
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Post by edge on Sept 14, 2009 22:14:05 GMT -5
SNIP What got me thinking about it was Edge talked about converting an 45/70 H&R barrel a few years ago. I do not know if he ever did it though. SNIP If you follow the link from my post above you can read and see the Handi Rifle breechplug from a couple of years ago...on the old board. edge. |
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Post by edge on Sept 15, 2009 10:57:10 GMT -5
I do have one more concern! A cartridge holds back a lot of pressure by gripping the chamber walls. A solid breechplug MAY transfer most of that pressure to the action, just in the case of a total "head Separation". While it may not be catastrophic, it will stress the action on every shot. I like your design a lot, but if it were hollow with perhaps a 0.010 - 0.015 wall it should expand and take a lot of pressure off of the action. You will know if it is working if it is very hard to remove. I also made a breechplug version from a 45-70 case with a .223 case module, but that one I still have not tried . dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=5865&page=1edge. |
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Post by squirrelhawker on Sept 15, 2009 13:20:19 GMT -5
The H&R 45-70 barrel leaves something to be desired due to reverse bore taper! The bore is almost always tightest at the breech and larger near the muzzle. It is not impossible to get good ML accuracy, but IMO it will probably require more load testing than a from a barrel tighter at the muzzle. edge. dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=4648You are right on the money about these being larger on the muzzle end..this one is. i need to shoot it more..more testing see what it can do. Since I had it bored and threaded..have not had a lot of chance to shoot!! |
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Post by squirrelhawker on Sept 15, 2009 13:29:06 GMT -5
I did want to add one thing. If you are using a non threaded breechplug NEVER open the breech after a misfire, especially if using BP or subs!!! If it is a hangfire and not a misfire, then the breechplug can easily become the projectile and hit you!!!! edge. I am well aware of safety. Of course ,only going to use smokeless in this. Even if a guy was shooting a cartridge in a break-open, if the thing doesnt go off or only the primer...need to use common sense. I can see where a guy would or should have liability concerns as far as selling these..I sure dont plan to!! Dont count on seeing any internet pics of me with a plug sticking out of my head ;D. My H&R ULTRA hunter is threaded and uses a plug..not sure if you saw pics of it yet from the MM forum. I dont see how some of these guys are on all these forums and have time to do anything else..jeese. |
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Post by squirrelhawker on Sept 15, 2009 13:54:50 GMT -5
I do have one more concern! A cartridge holds back a lot of pressure by gripping the chamber walls. A solid breechplug MAY transfer most of that pressure to the action, just in the case of a total "head Separation". While it may not be catastrophic, it will stress the action on every shot. I like your design a lot, but if it were hollow with perhaps a 0.010 - 0.015 wall it should expand and take a lot of pressure off of the action. You will know if it is working if it is very hard to remove. I also made a breechplug version from a 45-70 case with a .223 case module, but that one I still have not tried . dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=5865&page=1edge. I am a little confused... are you speaking of my plug or from the above post from "TSLC"... he is writing as if he is testing a plug?  I am "squirrelhawker" from MM forum. I am experiencing post forum stress disorder..ha ha. I understand your concern about the normal brass case walls pushing outward to the chamber walls.. I have reloaded for 25 yrs.. used to just neck size a lot of my stuff. It is my opinion though..that the pressure sealing effect is going to be mostly just that. The 45-70 headspaces at the rim..thats where the clearance...we have down so it is right on the breech. I will of course..have to keep an eye on everything... you very well could be right about that..I respect your opinion on it. This plug is tapered (obviously)..and I believe is around .050" thick at the .482" forward end and .506" at the breech end. 416 stainless. have only shot it about 30 times.. Will try to post any news on testing..when I get a chance. |
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Post by squirrelhawker on Sept 15, 2009 14:00:14 GMT -5
EDGE et al,
Looking back over what I wrote..wanted to make sure you know what I am talking about. I did two "projects". One was the 45-70
H&R ultra and also the encore prohunter with the 20" 45-70. That is the one with the "threadless" plug. Probably the one you saw pics of?? Wanted to clear that up.
Vince
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Post by squirrelhawker on Sept 15, 2009 16:13:11 GMT -5
I do have one more concern! A cartridge holds back a lot of pressure by gripping the chamber walls. A solid breechplug MAY transfer most of that pressure to the action, just in the case of a total "head Separation". While it may not be catastrophic, it will stress the action on every shot. I like your design a lot, but if it were hollow with perhaps a 0.010 - 0.015 wall it should expand and take a lot of pressure off of the action. You will know if it is working if it is very hard to remove. I also made a breechplug version from a 45-70 case with a .223 case module, but that one I still have not tried . dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=5865&page=1edge. Concerning the forces on the breech face....If I install the 416 Rigby barrel that I could buy for my TC action...shoot the 400 gr. bullet with 5000 fpe....dont you think the forces there would greatly exceed the forces from my plug. The actual force on the breech face. I think it would. When you fire any c-fire cartridge in the chamber...it does swell out + grab the chamber walls and that is mostly due to the breech face not letting it go anywhere. I understand your logic..using up some of the force to expand the thin brass case against the wall. Thats why i used the 416 for a comparison..or overkill. If TC designed the action for those forces...I should be ok..I will be careful.. |
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Post by edge on Sept 15, 2009 19:31:26 GMT -5
Actually a polished and lubed cartridge will exert about DOUBLE the normal forces against the bolt face! IIRC, a normal load might exert 4-5,000 pounds against the bolt whereas a total head separation may be 9-12,000! IMO, a non-expanding and non threaded plug may act the same. IMO, it would be easy to find out. Drop a range rod down the bore and see if it dislodges the breechplug. If it does then your action is probably taking 100% of the forces. If you are shooting a high quality rifle then the action may not stretch, but a H&R action is very prone to stretching and you may notice that it becomes loose. It probably is not too bad since H&R will repair....I think that you just pay shipping but I am not sure  edge. |
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Post by squirrelhawker on Sept 16, 2009 9:16:03 GMT -5
Actually a polished and lubed cartridge will exert about DOUBLE the normal forces against the bolt face! IIRC, a normal load might exert 4-5,000 pounds against the bolt whereas a total head separation may be 9-12,000! IMO, a non-expanding and non threaded plug may act the same. IMO, it would be easy to find out. Drop a range rod down the bore and see if it dislodges the breechplug. If it does then your action is probably taking 100% of the forces. If you are shooting a high quality rifle then the action may not stretch, but a H&R action is very prone to stretching and you may notice that it becomes loose. It probably is not too bad since H&R will repair....I think that you just pay shipping but I am not sure edge. If you hit me over the head with something enough times, I will finally get it !  I need to keep a real close eye on things as they progress with this plug. My buddy (machinist) is getting one of the H&R 45-70 ultra hunters this week. He wants to make a plug like the one in my TC...(wants to keep the chamber intact for actual cartridge use) Appreciate your thought input here.. it would be foolish to ignore your concerns about this.. Will try to post any thing relevant as I shoot it more.. thanks. And DD..I will try to shoot a string of 63 gr H4198/ 200 sst loads out of that 20" barrel & let you know the velocity I get. (per phone conver.) |
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Post by squirrelhawker on Sept 16, 2009 11:19:33 GMT -5
Actually a polished and lubed cartridge will exert about DOUBLE the normal forces against the bolt face! IIRC, a normal load might exert 4-5,000 pounds against the bolt whereas a total head separation may be 9-12,000! IMO, a non-expanding and non threaded plug may act the same. IMO, it would be easy to find out. Drop a range rod down the bore and see if it dislodges the breechplug. If it does then your action is probably taking 100% of the forces. If you are shooting a high quality rifle then the action may not stretch, but a H&R action is very prone to stretching and you may notice that it becomes loose. It probably is not too bad since H&R will repair....I think that you just pay shipping but I am not sure edge. After a phone conversation with DD and more careful thought... I measured the clearance between the barrel and action/breech. .007" is a go. .008" is no go. Any stresses on this will/ should show up here.. No sense speculating about this...if we can keep a close eye on things, right ? I will have to verify in any changes here by taking measurments.. I am not a Jedi Master..ha ha ha May the Force be with you!! ;D |
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Post by deerdhunter on Sept 30, 2009 10:44:57 GMT -5
I am interested in the T/C conversion. I think I remember reading on some site that sells barrels that their bergara 45/70 barrel is a 1 in 10 twist rate & the T/C barrel is a 1 in 20 twist. Can someone verify this? Or are the barrels available in different twist rates? What twist & barrel length would be recommended for a 45 conversion? Thanks for any help.
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Post by rangeball on Sept 30, 2009 10:47:55 GMT -5
I am interested in the T/C conversion. I think I remember reading on some site that sells barrels that their bergara 45/70 barrel is a 1 in 10 twist rate & the T/C barrel is a 1 in 20 twist. Can someone verify this? Or are the barrels available in different twist rates? What twist & barrel length would be recommended for a 45 conversion? Thanks for any help. Bergara says 1:20. It should do well as a .45 smokeless |
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Post by deerdhunter on Sept 30, 2009 12:27:21 GMT -5
I found the ad. Midway international shows the Bergara 24'' barrel as 1 in 10 twist - maybe its a misprint from the pistol barrel twist rate?
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Post by rangeball on Sept 30, 2009 13:39:40 GMT -5
Posted by RB above-
"As it stands now the barrels are an after market 45-70 1 in 20 twist. "
Since he's seen the barrels and based on bergara's website, I'd go with misprint...
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Post by rbinar on Sept 30, 2009 15:10:31 GMT -5
8-)It seems that Encores are much more popular than the 10ML in general terms, or perhaps all the 10ML owners who wanted conversions to 45 caliber have been supplied. But I've gotten tons of response to Encore conversions and have several in line for completion at this point. It occurs to me that the new TC brake over rifle and even a Knight model or two could also use supplied 47-70 barrels for a muzzle loader setup. Still this is a 10ML board so I'm not here to convert it to a Encore or any other brand session. This board has been most tolerable of any smokeless muzzle loading innovation in the past and I thank those of you for your tolerance if this seems somewhat off subject.   I'm providing these images so one can see that I'm using the standard breech plug method rather than a case. This means loading is like any other rifle and case thrust is a non-issue. I'm providing full disclosure by telling everybody up front that because I have no control of barrel quality I cannot provide an accuracy guarantee. |
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Post by rangeball on Sept 30, 2009 15:48:06 GMT -5
RB, could you do the same conversion on a 45/70 H&R barrel?
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Post by rbinar on Oct 1, 2009 3:57:40 GMT -5
RB, could you do the same conversion on a 45/70 H&R barrel? It's possible depends if the barrel has enough flat surface to chuck into the lathe without center wobble. |
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oh well.. Funny how people think alike.. I am not a machinist...my buddy is..but I am an engineer of sorts.. my buddies call me an afro- engineer..whatever that means?? ;D Funny...not that it makes any difference..but I never viewed or heard of those threads til this morn when I read DW's post and links to them ;D I dont think I ever even post anything on this board. Whoever is making these here..EDGE?? We should compare notes!! Check the link DW provided . This is the second design I came up with. The first one had too large of a powder cavity and
I am "squirrelhawker" from MM forum. I am experiencing post forum stress disorder..ha ha. I understand your concern about the normal brass case walls pushing outward to the chamber walls.. I have reloaded for 25 yrs.. used to just neck size a lot of my stuff. It is my opinion though..that the pressure sealing effect is going to be mostly just that. The 45-70 headspaces at the rim..thats where the clearance...we have down so it is right on the breech. I will of course..have to keep an eye on everything... you very well could be right about that..I respect your opinion on it. This plug is tapered (obviously)..and I believe is around .050" thick at the .482" forward end and .506" at the breech end. 416 stainless. have only shot it about 30 times.. Will try to post any news on testing..when I get a chance.
I need to keep a real close eye on things as they progress with this plug. My buddy (machinist) is getting one of the H&R 45-70 ultra hunters this week. He wants to make a plug like the one in my TC...(wants to keep the chamber intact for actual cartridge use) Appreciate your thought input here.. it would be foolish to ignore your concerns about this.. Will try to post any thing relevant as I shoot it more.. thanks.