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Post by rangeball on Dec 6, 2010 9:59:41 GMT -5
We set up my buddy's dad's CVA accura V1 with BH209, drilled the flash hole to .035 per frontier gander's recommendation, and used the .50 300gr FTX sabotless. Only primers we could get around here were regular CCI, not magnums.
When sighting in, the gun shot perfectly and went boom every time. Temps were probably in the 60's. Dad was happy and all set.
The first deer weekend he did not get a chance to shoot a deer but did try to shoot to unload each evening, and the gun misfired. Primer popped, but the load did not ignite. He had cleaned it with something other than hoppes that had left a good amount of oily residue so we assumed that was the problem, cleaned the heck out of it and the plug and he was back in business. Until this weekend, when he had another misfire, this time at a deer.
Gun is stored in an unheated garage so condensation isn't the issue. Powder seems dry, granules not swelled up or sticking together, shakes easily. Only thing I can think of is the temp difference. Mid 20's to mid 30's while hunting.
Is it possible the regular CCI just isn't enough to ignite BH209 in these temps? Do you think a magnum primer would do it?
Really scratching my head here and this is all I can come up with.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2010 10:31:18 GMT -5
Most likely that oily residue. I use hoppes black powder solvent and its a thick gel type of cleaner. If i dont fire a couple primers to dry it out prior to loading, Pop, fizz. The plug has to be dry.
If you can find the Winchester W209 or better the CCI 209M primers, thats going to be your best bet.
You been cleaning the flash channel with a #32 drill bit? A lot of carbon build up after only a few shots.
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Post by smokepole50 on Dec 6, 2010 10:36:38 GMT -5
It could be temperature Rangeball. I have not had the first misfire with my CVA Accura .50 before doing anything to the breech plug. I have not shot it since I installed a vent liner in the plug. I have however shot the new .45 Accura with the vent liner installed and it did very well, zero blow back, and the temp's were about 30 degrees when I sighted it in last Friday. I was using standard blue box Win. 209 primers. It's probably a combination of primer and temperature that is causing your issue.
You might want to consider a vent liner. I was sceptical about installing them at first but after seeing how easy the primers come out and how there was no blow back after 15 shots of 84gr weighed of BH209 behind a 200gr SST I now think the vent liner is the way to go. I drilled my plug to .156 all the way through and threaded it for 10-32. Recessed the face and screwed in a Lehigh vent liner slightly recessed. It looks like a factory install and it can't do anything but help ignition on cold days.
Smokepole50
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Post by rangeball on Dec 6, 2010 10:53:15 GMT -5
Most likely that oily residue. I use hoppes black powder solvent and its a thick gel type of cleaner. If i dont fire a couple primers to dry it out prior to loading, Pop, fizz. The plug has to be dry. I had thought when he first had the problem you would be right, but my buddy cleaned the heck out of it with hoppes until all patches came through clean and dry and it still misfired. Are the W209s hotter than the regular CCI? Buddy has those he shoots with his savage, so he could try them. I have fed209As and even though you said you found them to by dirty in the accura I know they are about as stout as a primer gets. Yes. At the range, every 2 shots, and after the thorough hoppes cleaning as well. Barrel and breech plug were clean and dry and it still misfired.
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Post by rangeball on Dec 6, 2010 10:55:39 GMT -5
smokepole, thanks. It's disheartening as the reason my buddy got his dad this gun was all the misfires he had previously with his percussion cap cheap in-line. This gun worked so great at the range, it's really a shame. I hope a hotter primer solves the issue. I sold them on BH209 as the best and I'm feeling bad now, thought we had him good to go.
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Post by budga82832 on Dec 6, 2010 12:05:50 GMT -5
Rangeball I have sent an email to Don Luhr of Western Powders asking if he has any testing data he could share with us on this issue.
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Post by rangeball on Dec 6, 2010 15:45:28 GMT -5
Thanks. Someone else at modern mentioned perhaps the cold temp caused the barrel steel and copper jacketed bullet to contract at different ratios, making for a less than tight enough seal to shoot the sabotless bullet. I've asked my buddy to ask his dad if he noticed the bullet loading any easier.
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Post by grouse on Dec 6, 2010 16:54:31 GMT -5
The first deer weekend he did not get a chance to shoot a deer but did try to shoot to unload each evening, and the gun misfired. . BH209 has not been temp sensitive for me. FG is only telling you what western Powders told him. It's wrong information. You need to have a 5/32 flame channel and a .031 or .032 flash hole. A vent-liner is required to achieve this. Or i should say that's the easiest way. The .035 flash channel gets to dirty. It's not a reliable way at all to shoot BH209. I also do not reccomend BH209 in any CVA ML with out having a good custom plug made to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2010 17:47:51 GMT -5
i use the factory flash channel but a .032 "one rifle" and my other 3 rifles use a .035" flash hole. My brother in laws Wolf QRBP is factory. We dont have any trouble.
Im still thinking its that cleaner in the plug. Happened to my brother and i a couple times and the next time i went to clean, i skipped the plug, fired the rifles the next day without a hitch of trouble.
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Post by grouse on Dec 6, 2010 19:09:05 GMT -5
i use the factory flash channel but a .032 "one rifle" and my other 3 rifles use a .035" flash hole. My brother in laws Wolf QRBP is factory. We dont have any trouble. Im still thinking its that cleaner in the plug. Happened to my brother and i a couple times and the next time i went to clean, i skipped the plug, fired the rifles the next day without a hitch of trouble. You have been fortunate trust me. Knight, T/C'S, have the same problem. The powder was not designed around today's modern muzzleloaders.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2010 19:11:47 GMT -5
Shot great this evening for me. Video also came out great. Especially showing the filth that a .035 flash hole leaves after 3 shots.
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Post by kenny549 on Dec 6, 2010 21:16:50 GMT -5
I had the same problem with my 700 remington, just glad I was not shooting at a big buck. I will never trust BH209 in a hunting situation again. I have never had 777 hang fire, although I dont like the crud ring, you dont shoot that many times while hunting. Has anyone ever tried a small amount of 3f-777 as an igniter under the BH209? Im going to load mine with BH209 and leave gun set in my shed a couple days and see if it misfires again, and then use 777 as an igniter and see what the results are. I shot this gun a lot before season ( warmer temps but not hot outside and never had a hint of a hang fire) I love the BH209 but I will never have confidence in it after this happened. Good luck hunting .
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2010 21:42:19 GMT -5
ive used 5 grain booster charge of jim shockeys gold 3f and then 80gr BH209 in a cva hawken sidelock. Perfect ignition.
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Post by mountainam on Dec 6, 2010 21:51:34 GMT -5
Kenny549, that's a great Idea that I was thinking of, but didn't want to mention it here. Duplexing solves a lot of problems with smokeless powders that are used in cold temps and low pressure situations. I think T7 FFFG would work fine. I'd try 7grs at first.It will boost pressures to give a clean burn with the BH209.
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Post by budga82832 on Dec 7, 2010 6:38:49 GMT -5
No way would I mix powders, to scary for me. From what I've read its a breech plug issue when trying to use BH209. The distance from the primer to the powder is very very important. Many of the gun makers didn't try to design there breech plugs for BH209, but more and more are starting to offer breech plugs that are design for BH209. Just like Lehigh, they now offer a breech plug for Knight Rifles that will wwork with BH209.
Don of Western Powder Just sent me this message below about BH209.
We do not have any testing data. It's a little more complicated than saying BH209 is or is not temp sensitive. Breech plug design is by far the most important aspect of the cold temperature issue. At any given temperature an Omega breech plug will give you more ignition energy than say a Triumph breech plug. This issue in this case is the powder charge being so far away from the powder. When it is cold the longer flash channel is a large heat sink that robs primer energy. This is another reason why we recommend CCI 209M primers. You start out with more energy. All that being said, we have shot all of our guns at very cold temperatures (-20 F) with no issues.
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Post by Jon on Dec 7, 2010 7:17:30 GMT -5
Rangeball. If you are local I have 2000 cci209 primers that i would not have any problem giving you as many as you want. If I can legally ship them I will. Let me know? Jon
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Post by rangeball on Dec 7, 2010 10:19:25 GMT -5
Thanks all. Breaks my heart that we have to mod the breech plug to shoot the powder I talked them into FG, the plug was not skipped, it was cleaned and dried thoroughly as well as the barrel. I understand what you are saying but it was not the case on the last misfire. Rangeball. If you are local I have 2000 cci209 primers that i would not have any problem giving you as many as you want. If I can legally ship them I will. Let me know? Jon Jon, thanks a ton, but they have the regular CCIs, not the magnums. I don't think you can ship them without a hazard fee, but I have some fed mag primers here they can try to see if it solves the problem. Hopefully it will enough to get him through this season then we can mess with the plug this winter. Thanks again though.
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Post by kenny549 on Dec 8, 2010 12:14:08 GMT -5
Well I loaded the 700 remington with BH209 and let it set out for one whole day and all night in 12 degree temp last night. Went to range this morning a bang no hang fire what so ever. All I can say is maybe BP had some carbon in it, from now on I will run a wire through breach plug after loading to make sure hole is open. Is their any chance winchester primers could have failed in very cold weather?
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Post by rangeball on Dec 8, 2010 12:57:34 GMT -5
Kenny, thanks for the info on your test. He was using cci regular primers, and they fired, the BH just didn't light up.
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Post by ohioguy314 on Dec 10, 2010 3:14:12 GMT -5
BH has definitely been touchy for me as well to get perfect and dependable ignition every time in any of my 3 ML's. I believe I need to read into this breech plug vent liner install some more, if it's safe and dependable and not too involved to do myself I'm definitely gonna consider doing it on all of my guns. In the meantime, I've shot through 2 jugs of BH within the last year and have came up with a system that works for me in all my guns. Federal primers have helped immensely over any other primer, a really tightly sealed load which I use a wad to help achieve and 10 gr of 777 down the barrel first as a booster. This combination has never misfired and after hundreds of shits has proven accurate and safe. But if a breech plug modification is the answer to reliable BH ignition, that's the way I wanna go. I have been told that the federal primers are the hottest available, idk about that but try do seem a bit better for the Blackhorn. Anyone who could pm some ventliner info would be great. Thanks, happy shootin.
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Post by johnp034 on Dec 10, 2010 3:29:22 GMT -5
My T/C Encore with .035 b/p is loaded on the first day of mz season, stays loaded in my truck all season, does not come out of the truck, killed 2 8 pts. this season, weather has not affected the bh209 one bit. I do use CCI209M primers. Have shot probably 200 rounds, thru the summer, into the hunting season with no issues. Maybe the CVA b/p.
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Post by Jon on Dec 10, 2010 5:40:34 GMT -5
Range ball. Sorry my finger got lazy. All I have is cci209m. It seems funny you can ship fireworks but not primers. Jon
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Post by budga82832 on Dec 10, 2010 6:28:11 GMT -5
ohioguy, Wow hundreds of sh..ts no misfires and very accurate and safe. Sorry, but I lost it when I saw your typo error. We need a good laugh every now an then. Thanks, Somedays work is very stressful and you need a good laugh. Happy Holidays.....
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Post by rangeball on Dec 10, 2010 9:57:00 GMT -5
Range ball. Sorry my finger got lazy. All I have is cci209m. It seems funny you can ship fireworks but not primers. Jon Thanks Jon. Yeah it's nuts, can't ship primers unless they are in loaded ammo then it's a-ok
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Post by smokepole50 on Dec 10, 2010 16:02:26 GMT -5
It is because primer composition is a primary explosive. It does not just burn fast, it detonates. Crush it and it goes bang. Crush 100 or 1000 of them and they will go BOOM!
Fireworks are not nearly as sensitive. About the worst thing in fireworks is flash powder which is pressure sensitive if you hit it hard enough, that's why there is a federal limit on flash powder volume in a given fire cracker, 50mg. Above this level is a felony. Hence no more real M80's or Cherry Bombs that were around years ago.
How do I know this.........well lets just say I have a interest in chemical interactions and enjoy pryotechnics. I still have all my fingers..... ;D
Smokepole50
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Post by falcon on Dec 11, 2010 16:16:07 GMT -5
"You have been fortunate trust me. Knight, T/C'S, have the same problem. The powder was not designed around today's modern muzzleloaders."
Methinks you are right. Been reading about BH 209 for about one year. Was about to buy some when OK deer and elk season opened. i've heard at least a half dozen hunters complain that their BH 209 loaded gun fizzled when old mossy horns stepped out of the woods.
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Post by Jon on Dec 11, 2010 17:16:35 GMT -5
I have a friend that for lack of a better name is a pyro. I'm amazed at some of the thing he gets shipped to him. Jon
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Post by ohioguy314 on Dec 11, 2010 19:29:40 GMT -5
Lol, the iPhone's auto correct likes to play games and help spell things how it sees fit, if you don't catch it, oh well. But on a serious note, ad long as I use a booster, I never have had a misfire and I never clean the breech plug until I'm done at the range. Accuracy is exceptional for BP guns and it has never yet even swelled a primer. Everybody has their own preferences and each gun likes it's own loads, I spend a fair amount of time shooting all 3 of my BP guns and one thing in common with all 3 is that BH is more dependable with a little help igniting. That's why I'm interested in vent liners, if that will solve the ignition problem of BH209 I'm all for it rather than using a booster. To each his own but I'm thrilled with the results I get, even at 200 yards. Happy hunting/shooting P.s. I have had well over 50 shots out of my Win Apex without cleaning anything other than dryswabbing the barrel between shots, no misfires, no problems. I'd day it's safe.
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Post by midohhntr on Dec 13, 2010 13:38:11 GMT -5
I have been following this thread and decided to give a little feedback. I started using BH209 when it came out and so far I am well pleased, the best groups I got are with a CVA optima pro with 110 gr of BH209 and Harvester 260gr pt gold with black cr sabot. !" @ 100 yds. Dry patch between shots and wet with Hoppes after 3 shots, followed by a dry patch and snap a couple primers. Never had a missfire, the other day I loaded the gun after shooting it and left it in the garage overnite, temp dropped down to 14 that nite, got it out the next morning and it still fired. I would not give a thought to ever going back to any other bp sub. But again, every gun is different and people have their own way of doing things. I'm going to try this load this weekend and see if I can connect on a deer.
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Post by rangeball on Dec 14, 2010 9:59:33 GMT -5
midohhntr, which primer are you using?
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