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Post by cowhunter on Nov 24, 2011 16:57:09 GMT -5
I'll understand if no one responds to this, but the members have so much testing and other technical knowledge, I feel compelled to ask. I am very happy with my Savage .50, although I might eventually convert to .45. Lets assume there is a person who has not joined yet, but who has wanted a stainless Savage ML for some time. Lets say this person has a BP only gun, we'll call it an Oncor, made by Tomsun Senter. Despite the warnings, this person intends to shoot smokeless in this BP only gun. His reasoning is as follows: 1. He has never seen any credible evidence of an Oncore barrel (or a smokeless-allowed barrel for that matter -- including Savage, Bad Bull etc.) blown up by use of conservative (or even radical) smokeless or BP loads. His friend, prior to buying a Savage, shot a number of different powders and bullets through his Oncor. 2. He intends to only use an already tested, fairly conservative load with a moderate "single" powder. He only intends to use the Oncor like this for one season, or about 30-70 shots. 3. He intends to use only saboted bullets. He once witnessed an idiot friend of his shoot a ramrod, on top of a loaded 250 gr bullet, on top of 150 grains of pyrodex. the gun kicked like a mule, but apparently the energy went around the sabot, throwing the ramrod about 100 yards down a gravel road (that barrel did not seemed harmed but was never used again). 4. Warnings issued by the makers of the Oncor don't contain any specific scientific facts supporting the warnings. Makers of the Savage also made a BP version of the 10ML but misrepresented its capabilities by explicitly stating BP could not be used. The point is that liability worries, likely created by the many smokeless load variables, may be the motivation for Oncor's warnings. 5. The best article I found on point is written by a person who we will call Wandy Rakeman. Wandy's best arguments are that the Oncor "may or may not" be properly pressure tested, and that the Savage has emergency pressure vents in the event the breech plug fails. These arguments are not too persuasive to this person because it seems that the moderate smokeless load contemplated creates less pressure than 150 grains of pyrodex, so if the Oncor doesn't need pressure vents why should these vents be a factor?
What would you technically experienced members list as reasons not to use the Oncor in this way for a season?
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Post by dannoboone on Nov 24, 2011 17:11:39 GMT -5
I'd have to go to law school prior to answering what could possibly be "baited" questions! ;D ;D
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Post by bush7mmstw on Nov 24, 2011 18:02:19 GMT -5
Sounds like a loaded question and not worthy of reply but just to ask a question, " what's your experience with muzzleloading?"
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Post by ET on Nov 24, 2011 18:04:19 GMT -5
Let’s see now the 10ML-II barrel has proven tests to show it’s pressure capabilities and it’s backing for safe smokeless usage is from a manufacturer who has years of experience. For the Oncore there is no pressure testing statistics or backing from the manufacturer for safe smokeless usage. If anything the manufacturer recommends only using black powder or substitutes. So you want me to believe and go on the word of an individual’s experience with 1-ONCORE BARREL with no technical backing in the field of firearms such as a manufacturer could provide that this is a safe practice for all Oncore barrels? I DON’T THINK SO AND WON’T BUY THAT. Now what if a change occurred with the manufacturer wanting to build this Oncore using a cheaper barrel knowing there recommendation for using black powder is a safe move. No notification will be sent out and made public for this change as it would not be necessary. So anyone believing your suggestion of using smokeless powder in this barrel as a safe practice will learn the hard way.
No I’m not really technically experienced but rely on manufacturer recommendations of types of powders to remain safe.
Ed
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Post by bush7mmstw on Nov 24, 2011 18:10:39 GMT -5
Ed, my post was directed at the person that started the thread not you, sorry for the confusion, no doubt as to your knowledge, I just find it interesting that the person that started the original question didn't even get the correct spelling of the weapons. I concur with your first reply. This sounds like an uninformed fishing expedition.
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Post by ET on Nov 24, 2011 18:27:36 GMT -5
Bush7mmstw I never took your post as directed at me as this was intended for cowhunter. The incorrect spelling was to make it to look like a hypothetical situation for consideration. Now what I would find unsettling is suggesting something to prove a point without consideration or regard to some else’s safety, hypothetically speaking of course. Ed
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Post by tar12 on Nov 24, 2011 18:30:00 GMT -5
He knows how to spell. He wants to know if it is safe to shoot smokeless in a stock Encore barrel. The answer is no as far this board and the manufacturer is concerned.
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Post by Richard on Nov 24, 2011 18:50:00 GMT -5
bush7...........the original poster is actually an attorney hence the incorrect spelling ;D Being a lawyer he does not want to open himself up to a "Law suit! ;D ;D" He is beating around the bush!
Cowhunter...........I do know of guys doing it and have had no problem for years but since it is not recommended by the manufacturer, you are on your own! Richard
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Post by zakjak221 on Nov 24, 2011 18:53:46 GMT -5
"I'd have to go to law school prior to answering what could possibly be "baited" questions!"
Amen Brother! ;D
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Post by bush7mmstw on Nov 24, 2011 19:10:10 GMT -5
Ed, I agree totally. Tar12, you hit the nail on the head. Richard, you and I think alike. Cowhunter, shame on you!
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jgar
8 Pointer
Posts: 106
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Post by jgar on Nov 24, 2011 19:51:37 GMT -5
Bush 7 agree with you totally. If it is not made to shoot smokeless, do not chance it!!
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Post by 10ga on Nov 24, 2011 20:56:09 GMT -5
I've been around when things went unintentionally awry and it is very bad. I don't want to be anywhere close to someone doing questionable stuff intentionally. Steer clear of those who do such. Remember that an ounce of prevention is worth way more than any kind of cure. Safety should always be foremost whenever dealing with firearms of any kind. 10 ga
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Post by fishhawk on Nov 24, 2011 21:01:46 GMT -5
Bad topic for this board, I wish the moderators would delete it.
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Post by doc12 on Nov 24, 2011 21:07:56 GMT -5
I hate these posts, reminds me why I dislike ArcheryTalk...No need to discuss this topic, being an anesthesiologist I see people who do stupid things and end up with life changing injuries because of their own mistakes. Don't do it, very simple.
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Post by ET on Nov 24, 2011 21:47:52 GMT -5
There is a sub-board for smokeless safety issues and this thread appears like a good candidate to belong there.
Any further hypothetical discussions could continue there to examine any and all safety issues or aspects for anyone wanting to do so.
Part of me agrees with Fishawk for the need of removing it from the main board.
Ed
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2011 22:02:19 GMT -5
Cowhunter, If your friend is not going to abide by the manufacturer's advice then why ask this board's advice on something that is HIGHLY FROWNED UPON HERE. Tell your buddy to go blow himself up and his oncor on his own and keep you and us out of it. Greenhorn
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2011 22:10:50 GMT -5
Cowhunter, If your friend does not abide by manufacturer warnings then why would he want the advice from us. Let him blow himself and his oncor up on his own and keep us out of it.
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Post by howa on Nov 24, 2011 22:47:03 GMT -5
You gotta give CowHunter some credit here, he did pick an appropriate title for his post. On a side note, what exactly is a cowhunter? It doesn't seem very challenging, they are not exactly elusive creatures.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Nov 24, 2011 23:17:54 GMT -5
Best to adhere to the manufacturer's advice directions and warning's... They are there for safety reason's. Not just disclaimer's. Myself ... I wouldnt want to pull the trigger(or have a friend or loved one) use it and get hurt...just because it didnt blow up in your face today. Dont mean that it wasnt damaged or weakened for an accident down the road Drop
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Post by Jon on Nov 25, 2011 2:31:44 GMT -5
Cowhunter may be from some place where cow hunting is done and I understand they are quite challenging to shoot? In answer to the question if it is not stated safe for smokeless then it is not and really should not be discussed on this board. People here are very safety conscious.
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Post by cowhunter on Nov 25, 2011 3:31:58 GMT -5
Moving this post was right. I'm sorry I put it in the wrong place. Thanks everyone for putting up with newbies. The issue is probably just a nuisance to everyone since no forum members would use an "Oncor". That being said, I think that after someone pays $700 for an "Oncor", that the manufacturer is not entitled to dictate how it is used. I've always believed in freedom of choice after a free exchange of facts, ideas and experience. Manufacturers, other than Savage, won't reveal their pressure testing results, and this may actually cause some to believe they are safe.
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Post by cuda on Nov 25, 2011 5:06:40 GMT -5
Now only if it was a 45-70 barrel with a Savage BP the would be the only safe way to shoot an Oncor. But NOT a regular black powder barrel. If you value your Friend DO NOT let him even try to shoot smokeless in a black powder barrel. Save his life and anyone that would be around him if he did try to do it. Tell him it only takes one time to blow his head off.
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Post by ET on Nov 25, 2011 6:07:49 GMT -5
Cowhunter
Dictate???
I don’t see how that word applies here with firearms. A company designs and builds firearms and supplies instructions for usage as to what their design will safely handle because of many factors we are not immediately aware of because most of us do not possess the knowledge of engineers in this field. They also make recommendations for getting the best usage in a safe manner for what that firearm is capable of. To me that is not dictating but promoting how the firearm should be treated and handled.
In the end the individual who paid the monetary price to own said firearm can do whatever he or she pleases but is made aware of what said firearm can safely handle with guidelines given. If the owner doesn’t want to follow said guidelines that is his right to do so just as any consequences will also be his.
As seen here actions by this Board promotes safety along with any advancements made here. We are not normally judgmental or close minded but when a caution light comes on many of us will react where a question of safety is concerned.
Ed
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Nov 25, 2011 6:11:46 GMT -5
Cowhunter writes......"I think that after someone pays $700 for an "Oncor", that the manufacturer is not entitled to dictate how it is used. I've always believed in freedom of choice after a free exchange of facts, ideas and experience."
The manufacturer doesn't "Dictate" anything. Simply advises how to use and limits liability in the event of mis-use. Simple....like any other product sold. And you are in luck....you have the freedom of choice to do whatever you'd like.
However, if you think a responsible forum is acting responsible by recommending, entertaining and promoting doing something that is exactly what a manufacturer says not to do......you found the wrong forum/board.
Anyone who thinks they have all the facts are free to do whatever they want at their own risk, expense and exposure to their own liability for their actions.
No intent here to get under your craw Cowhunter....just not sure you are looking at this the right way.
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Post by mountainam on Nov 25, 2011 8:54:57 GMT -5
I think Richard put it most concisely and I agree with him. Sadly the rest makes me wonder if this is what "MR. BALL" had to endure when he came up with his revolutionary concept. Let's not forget how we all got here.
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Post by cowhunter on Nov 25, 2011 12:12:11 GMT -5
Thanks to all for the input. I'll express the opinion of the majority to Mr. Hypothetical, and that might help someone be safe. I'm impressed that the members follow the rule about being polite and not swearing at newbies who ask dumb or even offensive questions. This forum is quite informative and entertaining.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Nov 25, 2011 12:56:19 GMT -5
Cowhunter. I have an Encore that I shoot smokeless. It has an aftermarket barrel from PacNor on it. It is a .45 DD 26" barrel. It has been sent to Bullberry Barrel works and set up for the Encore frame. It is approved from pacnor for smokeless use. Not cheap by any means but proving to be accurate as all get out. My last 5 shot group had the first 2 about 3" apart at 200 yds. I then paid close attention to what I was doing and indexed the sabot petals with 2 rifle lands.... the next 3 shots went under 3/4 of an inch...this again is at 200 yds. So what you are looking for is achievable. Good Luck Drop
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Post by cowhunter on Nov 25, 2011 14:27:37 GMT -5
12pointdroptine: I like your suggestion. I may do just that so I can keep my Savage shooting .50 cal. I think the Savage barrel is quite good (not that I know anything), and I hate to mess with something shooting well. Then I can always have a backup if I don't get the .45 shooting well by our March season. I may suggest this route to my friend also, then he won't have to keep looking for a Savage or take risks.
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Post by 10ga on Nov 25, 2011 18:36:24 GMT -5
Cowhunter, Hope you don't feel like you are getting flamed but SAFETY is very important. Like I said in my post I have been at the scene when BAD things happened. I hope you never have to go through such as I have had to deal with. I was not involved but was there when it went down. And years ago I had to deal with after the fact stuff that I won't elaborate on. All of these are very bad videos that run through my head from time to time.
Oh yeah, learn to mark your ramrod to check load status of your MLs. There are plenty of us here on the board that have had to deal with "bulged" barrels for one reason or another. Just use the search engine and do a search on bulge or bulged and see what pops up. I can just imagine (a nightmare) of an Oncore having a double load or such with smokeless etc... KAK--BOOM it goes..............
As for the cowhunting, that can be very difficult. My uncle had several cows "go native" on him one year. Well hunting cows that don't want to be found or caught, in the heart of the Blue Ridge Mountains, is quite a hunt to have. Ended up having to shoot all of them, 3, with deer rifles and that weren't easy. However it was really good "range fed" beef, LOL. I imagine the "Vancouver" cattle you have in HI are quite wild and very difficult to bring to bag.
As for the Oncor shooter, I'd just recommend they buy a jug of Blackhorn 209 and shoot the heaviest recommended loads of that. That should make them happy and be much safer for all involved.
Best, 10 ga
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Post by rjhans53 on Dec 4, 2011 17:04:33 GMT -5
Nope its not worth the getting wet contest that I would start if I made a response, so I'll just keep my thoughts to myself
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