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Post by ozark on Mar 8, 2009 20:13:02 GMT -5
Let me preface this by saying that it is directed at no Church or demomination. I write it because it was stamped on my inner being and has remained there many years.
A young woman with an infant child was found dead on the steps of a very nice church. She held a prayer book in one hand and the dead child held with the other arm. Had she tried to reach the alter and found the doors locked? Should the doors have been locked? Would Jesus approve of locking the door? These questions help lead me to question which is more important property or availability to the alter of prayer.
We all reach our personal decisions but this news article read before most of you were born effected me personally deeper than any sermon I have ever heard. It change my life and created within my being a resolve to never join a church that locked the doors to Gods house.
Yes, there would be expensive musical instruments damaged, Yes, there would be things stolen and yes church members would demand that the doors be locked. But, I have to wonder which way Christ would vote on the issue. Ozark
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Post by fowlplay on Mar 8, 2009 23:08:31 GMT -5
Churches IMO should never be locked, but we live in evil times. My own church has been robbed and vandalized several times. I can not blame any church that elected to lock there doors during the night hours. Jesus would not want the house of God to be locked, but IMO he would not want evil to drell in his house in the after hours also. Steve
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Post by sw on Mar 9, 2009 21:26:04 GMT -5
:)Ben, I see pros and cons to this issue. But what we can agree on is: Where is the Temple of God today? - He dwells in the believer's heart. The indwelling of the HS is the believer's assurance. This "temple" should always be open to others. We should always be open to those in need. The curtain has been torn open. God now dwells in His own. Yet, I realize, the physical building/meeting place has special significance to many.
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Post by ozark on Mar 10, 2009 2:56:24 GMT -5
SW, you have exposed the real temple IMO. This is a wonderful viewpoint that brings a new prospective to my understanding. It seperates the physical building from the true church and to my thinking gets things in order. I suppose I could ask why the physical building has special significance to many but since the true temple resisides within the believers heart and mind the building itself is not much of an issue. Thanks for the shot in the arm SW. Ben
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Post by sw on Mar 10, 2009 7:07:19 GMT -5
:)Ben, in the Old Covenant, sins were yet to be attoned for, God's "place" on Earth was thought to be/actually was behind the curtain in the inner sanctum of the Temple called the Holy of Holies. At the end of the Crufixion of Jesus the curtain in the Temple was ripped from top to bottom and God left the Holy of Holies. This was in preparation for his promise that the time would come when His Law would be written on our hearts and now the HS actually lives in our hearts. We are the Temple of God. He lives in us. What an honor! What a responsibility!! While the terms "sancturary", "alter", etc remain, these thoughts are just hold-overs of a past covenant. Do I have special places to me where I go to meditate and spend "special time" with God? Of course. But these are just special to me: the real special place is in my heart where God resides, and I won't share that with any "earthly" place. Your Buffalo River area is as special of a place as I've ever been on this Earth, except maybe visiting you and your "Angel" in Leslie. People are much more special than places or things. Have a great day, Ben.
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Post by Buckrub on Mar 10, 2009 8:39:36 GMT -5
Not sure where you'd go to look for the 'front doors' on some of these obscene 'mega-churches' that have been erected around Little Rock lately. I'm sure they have dozens of entrances.
Not sure you can find even one example of a 'church building' in the New Testament. I've looked. Only meeting I can find is in a private home or on a creekbank. If they were just talking, preaching, many times they did so from the "heart of the opposition", right in the middle of the Jewish Synagogue. But no church buildings that I can find. I could be wrong. Still, Hebrews 10:25 admonishes us to never abandon meeting together.........though it doesn't necessarily imply every single one of us at one time, I don't think. There's some reason He wants us to assemble together, somewhere.
But I'd hate to meet Him and have to answer for choosing to spend millions on a fancy edifice, and try to justify that expenditure of His money to Him.
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 10, 2009 8:47:24 GMT -5
There are some locations that it would be hazardous to leave church doors, or doors to any other structure, open to the public unless there is supervision. Drug dealers and prostitutes could be using the church at night. Granted that isn't the case in all locations.
As said, the children of God are to be a holy priesthood and the temple is to be built with living stones. It is us, who know Christ, that are compelled to reach out to men and women like the one who died on the church steps. But somehow we tend to shield our hearts and minds from some elements of society. Life can get very ugly for some people. And that ugliness is hard to take sometimes. I am reminded that Jesus was harshly critisized for mingling with this type of element. He loved them for the people that they were......not for what they can accomplish. My life is a constant struggle to emulate Jesus and His approach to all people. I fail daily for sure.
I too wonder if such large and immaculate structures are neccessary for God's people to assemble. What is it actually that attracts us? Is it church programs? Is it the fact that we have a very handsome place to meet? Are we attracted to the flamboyant and eloquent sermons? Are we attracted to the wonderful music? Has church become a country club of sorts to us? Certainly, our hope is that any person attending church should leave feeling that they have encountered Jesus there. The Spirit of God isn't confined to the temple. He lives within our hearts.
Doug
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Post by ozark on Mar 10, 2009 9:24:59 GMT -5
Some very inspiring and well thought out responses that have given me a boost upward. It leads me to believe that what is most visable isn't what true Christianity amounts to. The last Church that I attended regular was pretty much what I approved of but did have great pride in the building and the grounds where it was located. Music and entertainment was a large part of the services. Next door to the Church lived a young lady that had two or three children (Probably a single Mother). The house where she lived was old and her lawn was cluttered with broken toys, grass that needed mowing and wood for heat scattered in front. Some of the windows had quilts hanging inside to keep the cold away. This eyesore was discussed and a solution sought. I was not a member but my wife and I were regulars and volunteered to remove a dying tree that needed removal. This church gave some sopport to a Mission in one of Central Americas islands where the Pastors son lived. The Church was rewired for sound and much renovation was accomplished. But the eyesore became a sore spot with me. Their solution was to have a survey made of the lines and build a high wooden fence to shield the eyesore from being viewed from Church property. I asked about the situation of the neighbor but it seemed noone knew the story. She was not attending our Church and was not living up to a standard expected. So money was spent and the eyesore shielding wall was erected. Was this right? IMO we should have visited the lady, voulunteered to stack the wood, repair the windows, mow the lawn and bring her place a notch or two upward and invited her to attend the church. I pass the area often because it is only a couple of blocks from our home. My own feelings are that I feel more drawn to help her than to help the Church. But, obviously the thinking of Ozark travels down a different path than a majority of folks. Yes, my remarks are critical and yes, I am not a natural comformist. But I can truthfully say that I love people more than things. Ozark
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Post by Buckrub on Mar 10, 2009 12:17:20 GMT -5
Ben, I don't think that line of thinking is that much different than a lot of folks. But clearly, it wasn't the same thinking as THOSE church members that you mentioned, I'll grant you that. But I wouldn't have put up with that kind of attitude, and I'd have yelled loudly about it. That's just my makeup. I betcha that a BUNCH of folks on here would too. I've gathered more insight into the CHARACTER of some folks on here, from just few heartfelt posts, than I have figured out about most of the members of my own church.
I have to wonder what happened to that lady.......and if her path would have been different had y'all done exactly what you said should have been done? Folks called Jesus a drunk party-goer because he got down with the sinners where he could talk to them (Matthew 11:19). I get a little put out with folks who think that the "Church" is supposed to be a Sanctuary for the Saved instead of a Hospital for Sinners!!! I'm further reminded of James 2:2-9 where we are commanded to give no credence to folks' pretty appearance, but to their Soul. I am convinced that the church folks that you mentioned failed that passage immensely. Verse 5 of that passage clearly says what kind of person God has chosen. Those folks you mentioned were like many I know, and they apparently chose to associate with people vastly different than God chose, or that Jesus ate with daily.
I don't want to denigrate all church going people. Most are not like that. But too many churches care too much about some silver tongued preacher or what the building looks like, or how cool the members are and how they appear and what they wear. I can't stop going because the church has hypocrites in it, that's for God to judge. But it saddens me that "Church" has come to mean some big edifice. The literal meaning of Church, from the Greek, is "Called out Body of People for the Lord". It's people, not bricks.
But it's people without fences, I am convinced.
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Post by sw on Mar 10, 2009 13:50:31 GMT -5
Jesus prayed that his follwers would be "one as You and I are". Denominations may well be inevitable, but having denominational/sectarian attitudes shouldn't exist. Paul stated the same thing --"Some are of Apolis, of Paul, of Christ..." as did Jesus. A "good" church that isn't deeply involved in the lives of those around it and/or is very comfortable for certain members may be a "good" church by many's standards but possibly not Jesus's. Some may not even have candle sticks.
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Post by ozark on Mar 10, 2009 14:12:02 GMT -5
Buckrub, I was not a member and officially had no say in the matter. Perhaps belonging to a church and offering leadership regarding such things would be a good route to take. I did make my opinion known but as is usual in such places there are cliques that consider it their duty to decide all issues. My mind keeps going back to what SW mentioned about the temple being within the Christians body. It is difficult to find fault in seperating the property and buildings from the true Church. We stopped going due to my health and not because things didn't go as I would have perferred. My agreement or my disagreements, like my beliefs, are good only to the extent they are in harmony with the truth. I believe in seeking the truth, accepting the truth when it is revealed. I have already said much more than I know so I will look forward to reading some more gems. Ozark
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 10, 2009 14:51:24 GMT -5
The English term "church" which is an translation of the greek word "ekklesia" (from "ek" meaning OUT, Kaleo meaning CALL) is found one hundred and fourteen times in the New Testament. Not one time is there any reference to a building when this term was used. It always refered to either a believer in Christ (called out one) or an assembly of the believers. There is a church of the Living God today but they don't all meet in the same place and they all love Jesus Christ. The assembly of the saints is a wonderful thing. In fact we are commanded to assemble in love. We also read from the New Testament that "where two or more are gathered in His Name, He is there with them."
Today we have denominations.......Church of God, Baptist Church, Assembly of God, Methodist Church, Roman Catholic Church, Lutheran Church and so on and so on and so on. Within those assemblies there is a universal "catholic" church ("catholic" used in the universal sense). I surely doubt that when we die and reach the judgement seat that anyone will get a reprieve because of their denomination. The sheep will be separated from the goats and the wheat separated from the weeds. Those who love and follow Jesus will become adopted sons and joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8). No love......no salvation according to the scriptures. We all have opportunity to love Christ and to love our neighbor......and Jesus said that all of the commandments and all of the words of the prophets are wrapped up in those two commandments. Love doesn't have a denomination......it is freely received and freely given.
Doug
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Post by ozark on Mar 10, 2009 16:09:38 GMT -5
Keep it coming. I am getting more from this than attending church. Even this is an assembly and there are more than two gathered here. What surprises me is that no one had come to the defense of the demoninations and the establishment as it is practiced today. So many good points have been made that I will not attempt to identify the makers. All are interesting and IMHO a blessing to truth loving people. Ozark
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Post by huntingmike on Mar 10, 2009 22:38:59 GMT -5
I have previously tried to pastor churches for the better part of 24 years. They are made up of not perfect people. As a matter of fact some are called tares which look good but are of the enemy. I am glad to say there are some who are what they are supposed to be and it has been my honor to serve them and work with them in the service of our Lord. Even the good ones are not perfect but they are forgiven and dedicated in service to our Lord.
I am also glad to say that I no longer pastor for it is probably the most under appreciated difficult calling there is since in America everyone has an opinion as to how things should be done and are very willing to state it. In fact most will tell you how to do something but are not willing to do anything fix it themselves.
I am glad God has changed my calling to foreign mission. All I do now is leave my family and go to Africa, South America, and India at risk of my life to preach the GOOD NEWS. I have been arrested and jailed at gun point in Nigeria, one man came at me with a knife in India another man came to rob me in Brazil. In contrast I have also seen God do miracles that a lot of you would not believe so I will not share them at this time. I have seen God save many thousands of souls in these countries as well. I have been called to preach for almost 39 years now. I would rather do what I do now than pastor. IT IS EASIER. I have shared all of the above to say; IMO it is not if the doors of the building are locked or unlocked. It is if our hearts are open to the will of God. Our lives are not suppose to be about us. It is suppose to be about HIM and HE is LOVE. IHS
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 10, 2009 23:57:20 GMT -5
I am also glad to say that I no longer pastor for it is probably the most under appreciated difficult calling there is since in America everyone has an opinion as to how things should be done and are very willing to state it. In fact most will tell you how to do something but are not willing to do anything fix it themselves. LOVE. IHS So true Mike. Thank God for courageous men like yourself. Jesus asks us to "count the costs" before we decide to follow Him. There is a cost to stand up and speak "truth" in the face of ridicule and impending danger and pastors have possibly the hardest and most contested job of all.
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Post by ozark on Mar 11, 2009 13:18:47 GMT -5
This is just a personal opinion formed from observations made during my lifetime. IMO the Pastors duty is to prepare sermons and teach the scriptures. Through these efforts they will succeed or fail to inspire the other elders and members to do their duties. Counciling and leadership are naturally needed to lead but it will ultimately be the work of followers that determines whether the objectives are reached or not. I personally feel that goals and a vision for where the church is directed is needed. But study, preparations, prayers and inspiring is the roadmap to getting there. The pastor may or may not have a talent for admistration. He may or may not be into music, food preparation or know the best solution to a nursery. Nor do I feel it is his duty to supervise all aspects of all activities. Burnout is common because many pastors take on duties that should be those of other elders. I have heard it said that a certain person is a great preacher but not a good pastor. Since I am military to the core I will point out that small untis have leaders while larger units have Commanders. Commanders issue commands or orders and expect the leaders to get the jobs done. Commanders are usually experienced leaders and in commanding use the traits of leadership. Incidently, leadership is forcing others to do willingly what they normally would not do. The key is forcing someone to willingly follow directions and guidance. Successful pastors don't try to micro manage all aspects of the church and may well be weak in such things as administration, food preparation, etc. etc. Pastors are more related to Commanders than leaders. These are just my personal views and I have never been a pastor. The successful pastors I have observed inspired from their sermons and set a good example for others. We go to Church to be fed and if we leave hungry we haven't been fed. I am referring to spiritual food and not filling up on belly stuff. Pastoring is a tough job and there are sure to be obstacles in their paths. I wish all sincere pastors well and my words here are not meant to change anyones direction. Just expressing my opinion only. If I have encouraged some Pastor or some other elder of a church to press on then I am content. If I have offended anyone then I have missed my target completely. Ozark.
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Post by petev on Mar 11, 2009 18:23:42 GMT -5
Ozark, buckrub, if the churches I have gone to in the past did what you are talking about; that is actually getting out and helping people, and then inviting them to the church, I would consider going again. Most of my generation that I know, never really got into it because going to church seemed like the same thing every Sunday, and as far as actually DOING anything, it just didn't seem to happen. Most men such as myself are not inclined to go to after church coffee and donut socials, etc. Anyway, this is good talk, and we are not here (on Earth) that long so it is good that we think about the other mysterious side of life.
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Post by ozark on Mar 11, 2009 19:03:14 GMT -5
Petev, your reply has depth and makes clear the difference between self serving and serving. Church leader would be wise to listen and heed what your message is to the Church. Ozark
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Post by huntingmike on Mar 12, 2009 1:23:57 GMT -5
Ozark, There are some good points of your observations of a pastors duty. There is much study and preparation to be able to preach, teach and inspire. Yes he has to have skills as counselor, confidant, administrator, friend ,and leader. With the ability to feed the sheep. Do remember this fact. In every congregation there are new born lambs that need to be fed the bottle. There are young sheep that need to be warned of danger. There are full grown sheep that should be able to do well with out to much supervision. There are the sheep that seem to always get in to trouble. Most of all there may be the lost sheep who need to find there way to the light of all men The Great Shepherd. It is the preachers directive to present the Love of God especially to that one. It takes The Holy Spirit to take one meal (sermon) to feed everybody that none go away hungry.
IMHO A pastor can not be a commander as in the military. The Commander In Chief is The Lord. The sheep belong to him. An officer in the military gives commands and they are to be obeyed under penalty of law. A pastor has to be on the front line leading as a shepherd. A preacher can not make a person come to the Lord or live for the Lord by command even though there is a penalty in the end. It is not the pastor's to enforce. He is a servant only. He can only be the under shepherd.
While I was a baptist pastor I have seen God take small congregations and make them large but a pastor can not take the credit or the blame. I do not mean to say that being a pastor while hard was not fulfilling. I had great joy for many years in that position. I have seen children come to The Lord and then in later in their life officiate in their marriages and later dedicate their children. There are many blessings as a pastor. MY own children found the Lord while I was their pastor and to baptize them was a blessing beyond measure. My oldest daughter became a missionary to American Samoa for two years. My youngest daughter and her husband are youth leaders in the Church where they now attend. To bring children up in a good Church is it's own reward.
I just know that in my new calling to travel the world. I have seen The Glory Of God to the fullest. Hidden mysteries have been revealed. I have seen God make the lame to walk, the dumb to speak, and the blind to see. ( I told you I had seen God through The Holy Spirit do things most of the people that read this will not believe.) The power of God is real. In my heart I know I am in his will. Where ever he wants me to go I will go without hesitation. I would even pastor again if that were his wish. I just hope he keeps me going to all the world. Your servant, Rev. Mike
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Post by petev on Mar 12, 2009 9:19:25 GMT -5
huntingmike- posts like yours are cheering in these difficult times!
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Post by huntingmike on Mar 12, 2009 11:29:33 GMT -5
Thank you petev, I give the praise to The Lord.
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