Where are you headed?

[ET]

When I first joined this board I struggled for a long time before I started to get decent groups with my 10ML-II. That elusive MOA group haunted me for almost 2-years. Then as my learning curve kept advancing (Yeah I’m a slow learner) and I got more comfortable/braver in investing in some Mods I finally reached that goal.
The funny part is I now want to go even a little further and shrink that group size a little more with my existing 10ML-II.

There was numerous good advice, IMO given me along the way. Some might disagree with this because for me it is the results seen on my previous targets that I am listening too.
1) Establish a base line load.
2) Change 1-variable at a time to see what affect it had.
3) Orientate/align sabots to the bore.
4) Trim sabots to either the edge of the straight wall on the bullet or exceed by a 1/16”.
5) Wait time for barrel cooling is essential for sabot integrity.
6) Trying to keep consistent loading pressure.

Of course there came my first bedding job and had someone else drill/tap my third pillar because of tools I lacked then. Bore has been lightly lapped.
Had my barrel re-crowned 11-degrees with a specific angle & depth of chamfer I chose. And a final item was installing a recoil reducer. I am not including my ramrod retainer Mod because it has not been fully tested.

Through out all this the best powder for me for accuracy wise has been a book load of 4759 and 250gr bullet such as the SW or SST. Now I haven’t given a lot of other powders a try yet and suspect that might change soon as I am looking for a better base line load and possibly with a lighter bullet with a velocity of 2650fps. But no matter what happens I always have my original base line load for either hunting or confirming if a problem exists.

Today from the 10ML-II has spawned different calibers with access of acquiring higher quality barrels along with sabot-less loads. To me that is a great stride for muzzle loading that has given other shooters a selection for the path they want to choose. Not happy with one then try another that may suit you better. No matter which you choose there is a support team waiting here to help you navigate towards your goal.

What sparks my curiosity is the path of what others chose and what they discovered or overcame along the way?
I imagine this will be of interest to any newcomers as well.

Ed

[445supermag]

Ed. I feel the same way as you. I have started with using BP do to NJ (crap) laws that forbid the use of smokeless powder. What they don't know wont hurt them. LOL ( atleast at the range) Well during first year owning it using BP i got my first deer of the year with it and smashed a nice doe.

But started with onlly BP then tried some smokeless and was worried but no problems at all.
I have been trying to get a load right with higher velocities but was unable to get what I wanted with accuracy that I expect from a hunting gun. It was fine for 100 yard shots at deer at where I was hunting, it was fine.3- 4" group with 285 and 290 gr MZ and tmz. But learned that boattail bothered my groupings and found it was hard for others to get good groups also.

So now I have progressed to getting 3 boxes of BO and H4198 and N120 MMP orange sabots and Harvestor BCR sabots too.

I am also trying the 250 gr FB barnes bullets so I can use MMP sabots or Harvestors CR Red and see what I can do and if I can get velocity up to about 2600 fps with 1" groups or less at 100.

Now after all that I want another Savage to mess with. I will probably get a fully rigged up henry ball or someone who does good work with them and makes it the best 50 cal it can be. Then I will change the one I have now and get a Pac Nor 45 cal barrel setup and start more loading.

Lots of fun here just more time needed at the range.

Brian

[youp50]

I am back at the drawing board tying to establish a base line load. I have an excellent hunting load with 250 gr TMZ, I just wince at the thought of sending a buck and a quarter down range at every trigger pull. For the sake of equipment or load changes.

The loading pressure is very key at this point. Cold weather has made this clear to me. This ML of mine seems to require very high pressure for consistent ignition. Excess of 70 pounds is not too much.

Nikon just returned my Monarch, so I believe I will mount the higher power for range testing. This will give me the excuse I need to relieve the front mount. That is right my ML has the front mount resting on the recoil lug. No, it has not adversely affected my groups. It came second hand like that and shoots well enough for me as is, till this point.

I also believe in re-pillar bedding. To my way of thinking the pillars are there so #1 the action screws do not compress the stock material and #2 to remove all stress between the stock and barreled action. Proper pillars should be spotted in to the barrel/action. Then set into the stock. After I develop a baseline load I intend to mess with the torque of the action screws to prove to myself torque has little effect in a synthetic stocked hunting rifle. I do know that I can loosen the rear screw to remove the bolt and re-tighten with no noticeable POI change. I have worked with my hands my life and may have a better feel for torque than most folks.

Everyone should develop a method to prevent the breech plug and /or vent liner from seizing up. My way is unorthodox.


Finally I plan on taking another Boone and Crocket Black Bear out of Wisconsin. This time with my ML. Unless he is one of those cornfield bears that needs a pistol to safely take. Hopefully I will have the points I need in two more years

[Dave W]

Well since I'm not smart enough to reinvent the wheel, I simply followed the blueprint Ed and others laid out. Found my baseline load with N110 and the 250 SST and pretty much did exactly what Ed mentioned in his post. My only problem was the scope base on the recoil lug, I didn't catch this on any board posts but I figured it out when I ran out of scope adjustment sighting in and then a Search of posts turned up Mikes thread to confirm it.

I went slow and stayed with the book loads for awhile, then went to a slower powder and some Barnes all copper bullets, "a riddle I have never solved to satisfaction", and then progressed to the powders I had my eye on from the beginning, duplex. For lighter bullets, I don't think you can do better when it comes to accuracy and consistency than either book powders or duplex, slower single powders and 250gr bullets have never met my expectations.

My gun has shot great from day one and I owe all the credit to the guys here, so when the .45 bug hit, I didn't want to risk getting rid of a shooter for something that might not play out as planned. With the help of Dave D and Kerry B I was able to get a .45 Ruger #1 to scratch the itch of lighter bullets and sabotless. Took much more work to get the bugs worked out of the #1 than it did for the Savage, but it worked out OK.

What have I learned and what works for me? Listen to good advice and pay attention to details, the former is here in abundance. Use others loads as a guide, nothing is set in stone when it comes to these guns. 300gr .458 jacketed bullets may be the easiest road to finding 1.5 MOA or less in the .50 if you can live with the recoil.

Where am I headed. A Swinglock .40 cal maybe someday. I like sabotless and I enjoy shooting 200gr bullets much more than I do heavier bullets. My only interest is whitetails and those bullets are plenty big enough for those. I have pretty much "arrived" with the MLII, the 250SST and duplex shoot about as good as I can hold and I can't see any modifications making much of an improvement, just need to find a scope that holds up. The .45 and sabotless will see the most of my bench time but I would like to find a usable 2900-3000fps duplex for the 195BX.

[whyohe]

i too have started with BP subs and did great. got 7 deer with them. but started to get rust from subs and decided to give smokeless a try with loads others here have liked.

i have been very lucky and have not had too many troubles. my troubles have been primers not going off which was probably me not getting bolt down all the way and the rear action screw being too long and binding bolt. the other was odd pits in my barrel that was fixed promptly and never did find out why they occurred. i have great accuracy with both of my ML IIs with same load of 65 grns of H-4198 and 295 knight TMZs. sub moa when i do my part.

where am i going? well I'm going to play with some VV N110 and try to get a good load for my dad possibly who has sever osteoporosis and need a light load as to not break any bones. if they shoot good i might give them a try hunting too. for the most part i to have arrived at what I'm VERY happy with.

[wilmsmeyer]

I am going to try and find a really accurate load at the 200 yd line. My very accurate 100 yd loads are so-so at 200.

I will be looking at trying .458 300-400 gr bullets. My goals have always involved having max speeds and these goals may take a back seat to better accuracy.

Also some sabotless .50 cal stuff again. Had some hints of success last year.

As for .45 shooting, I may be a ways from doing this. Cost vs benefits are not favoring this move although I would do it in a heartbeat if someone donated a gun to me ;D.

If I didn't do anyhthing at all, I'd still be in fine shape to be a player next fall in the deer woods....which is what this is really all about to me in the end.

[mike.dawson]

All these have been great reading. I too was bitten by the bug. I left the great state of Ohio back in 1974 and moved to the Tampa area, great place to live by the way. I did not hunt again while down here in 30 years. I gave up the tradition of rabbit hunting on Thanksgiving day, squirrel hunting in the fall, you get the picture.
My brother owns a farm in northern Ohio and in 2005 He invited me to go rabbit hunting. Got my old Fox double 20 out of retirement and went to Ohio for Thanksgiving. While beating the briers and weeds in about 4 in. of snow, I saw plenty of deer on his farm, really big deer!
It bit then, Knight revolution, and plenty of range work the next summer, ready to go, First deer taken during Ohio's gun season with a 250 TMZ and 777 fffg. Several more deer succumbed to this in the next 2 years. but I got tired of dealing with the crud.
This past spring, the savage bug bit, got a blue one on Gunbroker, tupperware stock, had it shipped to Black ice, Teflon job, laminated stock, RW ventliners. I lurked on this board learning, my gun is a shooter, with just about anything i shove down the barrel, haven't tried the sink yet. I am going to keep it a 50cal and will get a PacNor 50 barrel this spring, 26 in, fluted blue have it Black ice coated. I am going to try the book duplex load, 14/61 n110/H322 and go from there.

Mike

[dans]

I have several "wants" but don't know when I will get around to all of them. I want a 50 cal mz built on a 1885 winchester action. It would be blue, have pretty wood and an octagonal barrel. The problem is finding a rifle cheap enough to make this project possible. Another project is a pac nor barrel 50 cal. on a laminated stock so I have a matched pair in 45 and 50. This is doable as soon as Pac Nor is done testing their barrels and made a decision on which one they are going to use. I find the idea of a double d/edge remington conversion intriguing. I saw a picture of one of our member's rifles that had a spiral fluted barrel and bolt and the smith that does it only works on Remington rifles. It was outstanding. I have a 50 cal SMI barrel that I am going to get fitted to an NEF .357 handi rifle. This will make a great combo for the grandkids when they are ready to deer hunt. I really like the looks of the ruger No. 1 conversions. They should give extra performance with the longer barrels. I need to develope a low recoiling load for the coming season just in case my rotator cuff surgery won't allow me to shoot the heavier loads. Hope that someone smarter than me comes up with a 3000 f/s load in the 45 using a sabot that is extremely accurate at 200 yards. Maybe a duplex. Well I guess that is the short list. Of course there is always the upgrades such as better recoil pads, cheekpads, scopes, slings, etc. Also building up the inventory of components is always a goal. Ah to dream!

[dougedwards]

Jan 15, 2009 20:48:49 GMT -5 youp50 said:

The loading pressure is very key at this point. Cold weather has made this clear to me. This ML of mine seems to require very high pressure for consistent ignition. Excess of 70 pounds is not too much.

How are you measuring the pressure exerted by the ramrod?

Doug

[dougedwards]

Jan 16, 2009 6:41:37 GMT -5 mike.dawson said:

This past spring, the savage bug bit, got a blue one on Gunbroker, tupperware stock, had it shipped to Black ice, Teflon job, laminated stock, RW ventliners. I lurked on this board learning, my gun is a shooter, with just about anything i shove down the barrel, haven't tried the sink yet. I am going to keep it a 50cal and will get a PacNor 50 barrel this spring, 26 in, fluted blue have it Black ice coated. I am going to try the book duplex load, 14/61 n110/H322 and go from there.

Mike

Just wondering if anyone has had a fluted barrel Black Ice coated. Wondering about the appearance and also the "wear factor" of the coating on the flutes.

Doug

[mike.dawson]

Give Lee an email , he has a lot of photos, he may have one that is fluted and coated, he will recoat for free if wear becomes aproblem on the flutes

www.blackicecoatings.com/Index.html
Mike

[Chris Champion]

I spent over a year lurking on this board, RW's site, and Modernmuzzleloader.com before getting on board with the 10ML-II. Mrs. Clause bought me a SS/Lam for Christmas 2006 after hearing me talk for months about how I was going to get one after we got out tax return.

I read and studied the Tips and Hints section and old posts on all the abovementioned boards and by the time I was ready to start buying components I felt I had a pretty good idea of how I wanted to start.

I started out with SR4759 (2006 lot #) and N120 as my first powders. Bullets were 250 SST, 300 SST, 300 XTP, and 275 XPB. I got very good accuracy out of the box and felt lucky based on some of the horror stories you hear. I had 4 or 5 load combos that shot right around 1" three shot groups @100 yds the first weekend I shot the gun back in March of 2007. Unfortunately none of these loads would shoot less then 4" at 200 yds when I tried them at that distance later in the year. It very likely was due to my never having shot at that distance before and that I have a hard time waiting for the barrel to cool between shots. I really wanted the 275 XPB to be my bullet but it never shot good at 200. Also, all of the bullets mentioned above never gave me consistent groupings like they did the first outing. Some days nothing would shoot.

Then I bought some Hornady 300g .458 bullets and orange MMP sabots to see how .458 bullets shot in my gun before I spent $50 a box on the Barnes Originals. The Hornady shot well in my gun so I sprung for two boxes of the BO's. These shot well with 58-60g of N120 (even at 200 yds) but every once in a while I would get a flyer when the BO in the orange MMP would load much easier or harder than normal. So I purchased a couple of packs of Harvester Crush Rib sabots and presto...I got consistent POI and loading pressure and found my load.

Now, I shot the BO not because I had visions of 300 yd kills, I shot it because it shot consistently best in my gun. I hunted with it the first year and shot two nice does, one at 165yd and one at 188 yds.

When N120 became hard to find early in 2008 I tried H4198 and was almost instantly hooked. It wasnt too bad on the shoulder, and at 67g was about 100 fps faster than the N120 loads and I can find this powder about anywhere. I killed the best buck of my life this year with that load at about 145 yds but also missed a nice doe (twice) at about 190 yds because I didn't get into my gun as solidly as I should have The drawback of the load I shoot is my gun is very finicky on how you hold it. It shoots good from the bench one of two ways, holding the gun with a death grip with both hands or not holding the forearm at all and letting the gun recoil up off the front rest. Neither are very practical in hunting situations.

So, recently I am rethinking my load. I am leaning toward a lower recoiling load that may be less finicky on how you hold the gun. I had a chance to take a shot this season at a nice doe about 260 yds and could not make myself pull the trigger. This was before the 190 yd miss. It was perfect conditions but it just didn't feel right. I know the load was capable as I had shot several rounds this fall between 250 and 300 yds. So in my head I do not need a 250yd+ capable load because I really don't feel comfortable shooting that far and because of the the recoil that comes with it. My shoulder can handle the recoil of 300g bullets at 2400 fps but I don't like how finicky the rifle is on how you have to hold it.

I've recently tried 250gr bullets with duplex loads at speeds from 2450 to 2675 and with single powders from 2200 up to about 2575 fps. My next try will be 250g bullets with book loads in the 2200-2300 fps range. I really would like to find an accurate load with the new 250g Barnes TEZ flat based bullet but have not had much luck yet. I may well end up with the 300gr Hornady .458 bullet at 2200-2300 fps and call it good. My action is not bedded but I would like to have that done this year along with the 3rd action screw as my POI tends to float around from range session to range session. I also intend to mount my scope on another rifle (again) to verify it holds zero and that the tracking is on.

The 45 Pac-Nor has really got my attention. I like the idea of shooting the 195-200g bullets in the 2600-2700 fps range or 250 gr bullets sabot-less. If somebody will just buy that Ithaca I have on the Trade Blanket I'll place the order for the Pac-Nor the next day .

Right now my focus is on finding a new job. As a couple of you know I lost my job back in October due to the volatile nature of the US automotive industry and our slumping economy as a whole. The job market is extremely competitive right now, my severance package wont last forever, and unemployment is a drop in the bucket. So for now, bullets and sabots and powder and action bedding and a new barrel will have to wait.

[ozark]

Where am I going??? My time to crawl off the field and sit in the bleachers and root for the team happened some time ago. I read about the paths you guys are taking and feel the enthusiasm you have. I owe much to this board. I was trying to learn about the Savage ML asking questions on other boards when one day the telephone rang and SW was on the other end. He felt that I could learn quickly by signing up on this board. He was correct and I owe much to people who have helped me with the Savage here. But for me the real benefit was being accepted by people who had interests in shooting. When I retired after over eleven years as a full time competitive marksman, armorer, coach and instructor with several different military teams, I simply put all that behind me and learned to be a civilian working for a living. I hunted but it was mostly coonhunting.
After the call from SW I discovered folks that were leaders in this field and pioneers who could understand where I had been. Some actually understood what a leg medal was and the steps of going from a tyro to the elite distinguished position. I had rubbed shoulders with the worlds best shooters. Was a personal friend of World Champion Sergeant Joe Benner. So I found it fantastic to again rub verbal shoulders with poineers who understood how the cow eat the cabbage. Being accepted back into the arena even as a fan and spectator means a lot to me now. Take from this sport all you can and accept my sincere thanks for taking me in. No smart remarks from you edge. Spectator isn't a form of dictator. Where am I going??? As long as allowed and able I am going to be right here reading and bothering you folks. Thanks.

[youp50]

dougedwards,

Just saw your question, I used a bathroom scale. It took me some time to find a non-digital model. I am the proud owner of a white Sunbeam spring scale. It has just occurred to me I may camo paint it. I have a rather windy post on the cold weather shooting thread.

Ben,

I wish I were closer to your place. I would like to sit for awhile. Thank you.

[Deleted]

Some of you are relatively new to the scene as I am also, when I bought this gun in the summer of 95 it had one intended purpose, to kill a big Illinois buck during the gun season and that it has accomplished both years I have carried it. Never would I have ever dreamed the MLll bug was this bad. I carried my 7mm08 three times this year, not that I am a big gun hunter anyway but I really enjoy seeing what happens when I trip the trigger on the savage.

My wife thinks im crazy spending the time and money I have on this thing, shes probably right . I have always been what some would call an extremist, whether bowhunting, bodybuilding,taekwondo or just working I tend to get a little carried away, all or nothing, guess thats why god made wives, to pull back on the reins, or the checkbook.

Anyway, IF the 45 thing works out well I might just retire my rifles until the youngest son gets big enough to pull the trigger and maybe by then I will have a NO 1 40 cal conversion built for him to carry, the guys here have some I drool over every time a picture gets posted.
Right now the little brown truck is slowly furnishing me with the necessary 45 stuff and I read over the loads and advice on the 45 every night,maybe it will be a done deal before the gobblers get fired up.

I really look forward to shooting with my buddy when his swinglock arrives in late spring. That will be interesting, both 28" barrels, with two nuts pulling the triggers. Tom Post is suppose to work his load out before it ships, I am anxious to see what combo he uses and just how accurate it is, he paid extra for a kreiger barrel, thats the only way he would guarantee 2" groups @ 400. , I will have to see it for myself.

Hopefully the economy will improve so everyone here can keep all their guns, if things get really bad we can eat more deer meat if we can shoot straight. Good shooting....Bill

[jkruger]

as a newb , i'm headed in the direction of getting the bookloads under my belt w/ accuracy. after that the sky and the wallet are the limit. never thought i'd be expanding to such a degree on a hobby as this.
right now i'm headed to the woodstove to throw more logs on. ( -5 right now). brrr

[Dave W]

Jan 17, 2009 0:21:10 GMT -5 @hillbill said:

I really look forward to shooting with my buddy when his swinglock arrives in late spring. That will be interesting, both 28" barrels, with two nuts pulling the triggers. Tom Post is suppose to work his load out before it ships, I am anxious to see what combo he uses and just how accurate it is, he paid extra for a kreiger barrel, thats the only way he would guarantee 2" groups @ 400. , I will have to see it for myself.

....Bill

Stop saying stuff like that, now I want to blow my bow stash on a Swinglock. 1/2MOA at 400yds. Wow!

[sw]

:)A few thoughts after reading the posts here.1) Any one who visits Ben(Ozark) and his wife will be blessed. He is a very good, wise man. 2)A fairly smooth(either firelapped - if necessary, likely not, or lapped - possibly not) barrel in a Sav 10-ML2 will shoot a 45 or 46g VV-110, 250g bullet with a short MMP or trimmed HPH-12 with a WW under it @ 2430'/sec or so with virtually no temp sensitivity at around 1" 100 yds. This is close to an unbeatable load. 3) 1/2 MOA @ 400 yds with a MLer will be quite a feat! Let's see what the long range champ(Richard) can do with his 45 PacNor. This should prove to be interesting: the comparison of what Tom Post's Swinglock(I suspect an extremely good gun done by obviously a very knowledgable individual) can do as well as what Richard's gun/Richard can do as well as other great shooters will be able to do. 4) My goal? To develope a 400 yd MOA load with both the 40 and 45 cal PacNors and actually harvest a 400+ yd deer(ethically- not a chancy shot) with a smokeless MLer. Harley will likely have a new goal also . He's currently our very own , very modest champ, and well deserved.

[Harley]

As soon as I can find a day with little wind and no rain in the forecast I'm going to set up for some extended 300 yard shooting with my .45. At 100 yards my groups are always sub-MOA, and I have one very long kill with this rifle; but I've never punched paper with it past 100 yards.

Recently, some people have posted criticisms concerning the occasional impressive long range group that appears from time to time. It was, in effect, argued that these mean little, statistically. What is wanted, they say, is a series of such groups to make the point that a particular rifle with a particular load can do this consistently. I agree, although it's always a treat to see those great groups and they do tend to make me ambitious to do more with my own rifle.

So, I'm going to shoot a numbered series at 300 yards. I'll report ALL the results, good or bad. I really don't have any idea what to expect. The load I shoot (12/47 SR4759/A2015 with the 275 Parker BE) only clocks 2307 MV; some people would call that "lobbing" the bullet at extended range.

Other than the above I've no plans with the .45. I'm feeling strangely depressed: After two years of hard and often frustrating work to get where I am I miss the challenge I once had. I'm not interested in developing any more loads and I don't hunt property that offers any shots longer than the one I've already made. (The night I killed my deer at long distance I told my hunting buddy, "I'm never going to forget this; it doesn't get any better".)
The ML-only season in GA is just seven days. Right now I'm thinking I'll hunt those seven days, then go to my pistol and the 7MM-08 that took three years to build and which has been totally neglected since I got caught up in the Savage.

Harley

[Deleted]

IT will be interesting to see what the spring and summer holds, 2" 400 yd groups? like I said seeing is believing and the camera will be ready if it happens. I too look forward to see what richard comes up with, it doesn't bother me at all to be a copycat . I might try a antelope this year if the 45 shoots really well. my swinglock buddy is planning on carrying his this year, his goal is a 400 yd lope with a muzzleloader, I would like to be there to see it !

Some here might complain about all the non conventional 50 cal stuff posted these days but all I can say is read and learn, information never harmed anyone as long as it is good. I have seen very little bad information given here in the past year and if it happens someone that knows better quickly corrects it.

My ultimate goal is a lights out hunting rig that looks and feels good in the process. when I pull the savage out of the case in the presence of some the normal comment is " what the h'/ ? is that" and I just grin while they pass it around and rub on it ;D).......Bill

[rbinar]

8-)I wondered for a while if I should respond to this post. If you look at the time I posted you may see I did so only in a sleep deprived moment.

You are the driving force in smokeless muzzle loading today. I'm now only a voice that might be used on rare occasions. You are however in good hands. So many of you now have the knowledge that was so sought for in the early years.

Asking where I'm headed in the new year is hard to answer. Actually I'm scaling back rather than racing forward. I'm planning only 6 new rifles in the coming year as compared to 12 in past years.

I have never made anything perfect. With each of these new rifles I will not be perfect either. Still, I hope each will have something perfect about them even if it is a small element of the whole.

One thing I have in mind is proving the 9.3mm barrel as a viable option for shooting .358 bullets sabot-less. Another rifle will be purely for range experiment. It may be useless as a hunter but it's job is to set a standard for accuracy at distance not take game.

But in the end I'd say my thing looking forward is how all of you are now able to proceed with confidence. It's amazing to me how this tiny little board mirrored the big world for the past 8 years. Here I think we can say logic and good sense won out in the end. Out there it's still up for debate.

[whyohe]

rb, im glad to hear in a way you are scaleing back. you are making some time to enjoy the fruits of your handy work. i think that you are moving forward cause we know you will keep us posted on how your new toys are progressing and still keep things on this board advancing to the NEW.

[getonit]

I too am one of the guys who are fairly satisfied with shooting the 50- even though I would love a Ruger #1 in 45 it will wait for now- as much shooting and experimenting as I have done in the past 6 years or so- the numerous load/bullet/sabot/powder/underwad/other combinations Ive put through the MLII's .....early on I scratched my head alot before getting to the basic 'must do' things and getting the feel needed every time I load......now I can shoot most combinations with some degree of accuracy- I still have a group of favorite powder /bullet combos that shoot well regardless as long as I do my part- the ongoing experiments will surely be with 300 to 350 gr. bullets out further than the 275 yd. range I practiced at in the past (Harley- do you ever get the feeling we're targeting your record ;D) with the areas I can hunt being open flatland I want to be confident of my ability and the rifle before I squeeze the trigger...and shooting in field conditions instead of bench rest added to the mix... the testing goes on ;D Rick

[cgg]

I started with ML's almost 25 years ago with PA's flintlock season. Started shooting inlines 6 or 7 years ago because I hunt Iowa and don't like the cost and recoil of shotgun slugs. I love the accuracy of inlines and enjoy tinkering with different loads etc. I bought a Savage in January of '07 and have been fooling with it for three winters now (I don't shoot sabots much in the spring and summer).

My Savage & I did not get along well at all at first. I read stuff and paid too much attention to info that claimed virtually every Savage loved 5744 and/or 4759, and I was trying too much with 250 grn. bullets. My Savage doesn't do real well with 5744 and 4759 powders and 250's. I wasted a lot of time trying to get those powders to shoot when I should have just moved on. The same thing happened with .458 bullets and Orange MMP sabots. I wasted hours and $$ trying to get them to shoot and should have moved on. The Savages sure have a big learning curve, but along the way I did pick up a lot of good info.

For the '07 and '08 deer seasons I never did find an accurate Savage load that I had confidence in and the 10MLII stayed home and did not go hunting.

I finally found some VV N110 and that helped. And just in the last couple weeks I have been working with Reloder7 and 300/.452 XTP's. It seems the slow powder and big bullets really help--I am getting consistent 1 to 1 1/2" groups for the first time and actually liking the rifle.

This year I want to do more work with slower powders and want to try N120 and H4198. I'd like to stay with the .300 XTP's -- I have a lot of confidence in them and they are relatively inexpensive.

My T/C Omegas shoot 300 XTP's very well out to 200 yds. and I have really liked the new Blackhorn209 powder--it is very "smokeless-like." But is ridiculously expensive and still pretty slow.

I can shoot smokeless for about 1/4 to 1/3 the cost of BH209, and get better velocity. This year, if I can get my Savage to be as consistently accurate as my Omega's, I will take the Savage hunting and retire those T/C's.

I just found Doug's a couple weeks ago and have really enjoyed it so far--thanks--

CG

[sw]

Jan 18, 2009 4:36:50 GMT -5 rbinar said:

I have never made anything perfect.



Here I think we can say logic and good sense won out in the end. Out there it's still up for debate.

RB, your guns come very close.

I agree that logic and good sense won out. The board has come thru some mildly trying times(the moderators may think or know that "mildly" might not be strong enough) and with extremely cool head(s) in charge, they guided us thru. As far as "those out there", they are just missing out.

RB, your load guidance just doesn't fail.

[Harley]

As long as the "atta-boys" are being handed out, SW, I've got to say you're at the very top of my list. Without your patience and guidance I would long ago have made a trot line sinker out of my Savage.

Harley

[Deleted]

CG, if you hang around here very long you will likely find what your gun shoots best, there is a world of info on this site so hang in and ask questions, guaranteed you will get answers, these guys know more about smokeless and the MLll than any place you will find. Who knows you might turn into a MLll nut like the rest of us....Bill

[jims]

I have a .375 groove 22 inch barrel with lands at .366. I hope to shoot sabotless with it with 9.3mm bullets (.366 and .365) and saboted with 8mm (.323) bullets. Any assistance from this group with powders and weights of the same will be welcomed. The sabotless bullets run from 232 grains to 286 grains and the saboted from 125 to 180. The twist is 1 in 12.
Hopefully I can post soon some of the loads and speeds attained with both.

[sw]

:)Lloyd, thank you. You have set the mark of what we are striving for(please excuse the "dangling" preposition).

Jim, considering how well H-4350 worked in the 40, I'd consider H-4350, RL-19, H-4831, RL-22 with 5-7g primer. This caliber would benefit from a chamber, IMO; but I understand the concerns of the possible bullet obstruction problem. Otherwise, fairly long shot columns will occur. As the caliber goes down, I personally think the "ideal" pressure will go up. I think 50,000-55,000+ (for sabotless)would work best. Maybe a pure carbide bushing would work here or just replace ventliners every 25-40shots(no big deal). Good luck.

[dannoboone]

Rick B. -- Doug is the founder of this Savage ML board. YOU are the
godfather. Where ever you go, my heart and prayers are with you.
Many others have come up with fantastic additions/inventions, but
guy, you have given so, so much to the rest of us. Thank-you,
thank-you, thank-you. The things you have taught us over the
last few years cannot be over-stated. (Ya surely, unintentionally,
made this ol' fart a duplex "addict" though! ;D )

Where am I headed? Lighter and faster with the .45. Would love to
play with the .40, but not much sense even going there, as this
state won't allow anything less than .45 caliber for deer. Going to
attempt getting some discontinued (have a quantity) 150gr bullets
doing better than the ol' -06 will do, while experimenting with a
new duplex with the 200gr bullets (don't worry, the main powder
is used in the .444 Marlin with less pressure than a couple other
powders already used in the .45 PacNor barrel).

But then, I just gotta play with my ol' true love, the .25-06 and
have gotten a NIB VLD to play with. Where legal, this is a GREAT
deer rifle cartridge. Depending on accuracy, should make a
fantastic coyote rifle.

Either way, I prefer lighter, faster, flatter trajectory. Been
headed there all my life.