Lordship salvation?

[stubblejumper]

After reading Riflemans post (which is terrific) It brought back questions in my own struggle with salvation that I have come through.

I am curious as to the beliefs on this board regarding the "Lordship salvation" debate. Specifically, if one must accept Jesus as not only his savior but also as his Lord in order to be saved. Some teach this while others believe that it is adding to the "free grace" of God. That we first accept him as savior and later, (or gradually) as Lord.

I have read great minds on both sides of this debate and would appreciate input from anyone here.

[ozark]

"Repent and be baptised and thou shalt be saved", That doesn't leave a lof of gueswork and can hardly be misunderstood. I personally don't believe that we can do anything to save ourselves. Salvation IMO is something that the Godhead must give. I have seen foxhole and tornado religion and believe me danger can cause some serious praying. Since childhood I have wanted to be saved. Primarily my hope was to excape the Hell that everyone decribed to me. For years i dealt with this delima and eventially I got to the point of giving up the effort. I decided to turn it over to God and let him accept me or not. I was tired of seeking without finding. When I took myself out of the effort and turned it over to God a strange but covincing to me rebirth occured. Since that night I have neve questioned or doubted. No more fear of Hell, or being cast into the lake of fire. I didn't know much about God but was shown that He knew and accepted me. That was all I needed to know. My mind and heart was set free. With that said, let me say that I am not impressed by testimonials. It happened one way with me and I am sure that it is different and matched to the individual. Hope I haven't confused any. Ben.

[dougedwards]

"Repent and be baptised and thou shalt be saved" Does that mean that you at some point in your life decide that you are sorry for some of the things that you have done and are now willing to be baptised and receive the free gift of everlasting life? Can that just be a fleeting gesture to God? Or is there any real transformation that takes place within the Spirit of man that changes his heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh? Is salvation a result of something that we say or is it a result of an inward surrender of some sort? These among many other very pertinent theological questions have been bantered about for centuries but there is one scripture passage that continues to disturb my soul.

Matthew 7:22-23 (King James Version)

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Is it enough to only give lip service to the Lord? Just something to think about.

Doug

[stubblejumper]

Ozark

Both sides agree that you must repent, they just disagree on the meaning of the word. The Lordship side says that it is a turning from your sins. The free grace side says that it simply means "to change your mind" which is the original meaning of the greek word. To them it means to change your mind about who Jesus is more so than a turning from sin. It is a repentance from unbelief in this case.

To the one side repentance from sin is seen as a "work" added to grace, while the other side feels that repentance from sin is an act of grace given to the person at the time of conversion.

Personally I remember saying a prayer asking Jesus to save me when I was about 6 years old. Several years later at a crises in my life I knelt again this time submitting myself to the Lordship of Jesus. The one camp would say that I was saved at 6, the other would say that I was saved 30 years later.

This I do know: that genuine faith results in a changed life; no change = no rebirth. Faith is a living channel of trust between a person and God, not just mental assent to facts about him. If I truly trust him, I will (at some point) submit myself to him as well.

The problem is that growth occurs at different rates in different people. I would be in the slow camp =).

[Rifleman]

Read the apostle Paul in Phillipians 3, where he states he counts all things but dung that he may win Christ. He was talking of his good works. He no longer trusted those to save or help save him. Christ kept the law for us so we don't have to. Doug mentioned that he was haunted by the verse Matt 7:22-23--- Iniquity by definition is sin, but specifically iniquity is our good works when we trust in them to have merit before God. It is filthy rags, or dung. Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords and King of Kings, He is the son of God, and He is God. Regardless if a man recognizes this or not, it is still true. My puny respect of this or lack there of has no bearing on His position. The current president of the USA is Mr. Obama. Regardless of my feelings, he is the president. I hope you see the comparison. Jesus is Lord, period. When dealing with God it is either works or grace. God is a God of perfection and accepts nothing less. We are commanded to pray without ceasing, We are commanded to love God with all of our heart, we are commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves, we are commanded to not covet. Not one of us keep these commandments. Romans tell us there is none righteous , no not one. Only Jesus did these things for us. It is either His perfect righteousness or ours. Heaven or Hell.
I have been very short on this subject and hope to write more at a later date as the Lord leads. The very best expose on this very subject of salvation I have ever read is a book called the " Pain and Pleasure of Forgiveness by Dr. Mac Johnson"

It is available from
Faith Baptist Church -
6423 Hamilton Bridge Road, Milton, FL 32570

Phone- [phone]

The books cost $ 10 each, if you cannot afford one, please send me a PM and I will send you one free of charge.
If you call ask to speak with Mrs. Hively, tell them Dwight from Indiana referred you and she will be happy to assist.

[dougedwards]

Let's throw out a more specific question since it is obvious from the message of the scriptures that there is NOTHING that we have or can do to earn God's grace which is necessary for eternal salvation.

Is it possible for someone to accept the fact that Jesus was the Son of God and that HE was sacrificed on the cross as a penalty for our sins, and this same person show absolutely no evidence of change of any kind in his life?

This question also pertains to the actual meaning of the word "believe" as it relates to the well known scripture of John 3:16

James, the natural brother of Jesus wrote this passage of the Holy Bible in James 2:14-16

James 2:14-26 (New King James Version)

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Is faith, void of the desire to please God through obedience, even faith at all or do our hearts and souls experience a transformation when we accept God's free gift of grace through a re-birth which causes all things to become as new in our life?

Doug

[whyohe]

Dougwards, you pointed out what i immediatly thought. It is threw the beleaf that threw Jeasus our sins CAN BE (not will be) forgiven. we have to show this by our works as you have shown. works to me shows an action on our part. we can say anything but it's our actions that prove what our heart feels and beleaves. we are imperfect people and GOD has sent his son down as a sacrafice for ALL our sins if we beleave HIS teachings adn follow his ways. we sin all the time but just asking fo forgiveness and not truly being sorry for them and just relying on that sacafice is not good enough. we must be heart felt in our asking for for givness and truly feel bad that we have upset GOD by our actions. Other wise dont let the imperfection of ourselve be the"excuse" for forgivness.

[dougedwards]

It is very interesting to read the scriptures and how sometimes a well known passage that has been read over and over again will come more alive, vibrant and relevant than in previous readings. I just read this passage recorded by the apostle Paul in his letter to the Phillipians. The entire letter is amazing.

In this third chapter the apostle is brushing off all that he had obtained by being circumcised into the faith and of all the good things that he had done through obedience. But this new found revelation through faith in Christ is certainly not without it's own personal sacrifices. In fact he alludes that to accept Christ through faith is the supreme sacrifice but is done with vigor. Read what Paul says here in verses 10-14

10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Is it really possible to read this and conclude that ALL a man has to do is accept the fact that Christ was raised from dead by God? If Paul, through his conversion, is now straining toward what is ahead.....what exactly is he straining for?? Paul answers that question doesn't he? He wants to know Christ, to partipate in His sufferings and His ressurection and even in the death of Christ. Even though Paul admits that he isn't there yet......he counts everything else as dung.

I would submit to you that this is not natural. The natural man does not delight in suffering, or persecution unto death. The question is....how can the natural man accept Jesus as Savior and not accept Him as Lord?? Truly accepting God's love is life changing not just a decision that we make like making a career change. It is all consuming. Well, at least according to the apostle Paul in this passage it is. We might question whether this transformation occurs over a period of time but certinaly it should be evident that a turning from indulgences of the flesh will be replaced by a greater desire to know Christ.

Doug

[stubblejumper]

Rifleman...I agree 100% with you that we can do absolutely nothing to contribute to our salvation. I also agree that Jesus is Lord over every power, authority, etc ever created whether anyone believes that or not the fact is not changed. What the Lordship salvation side is talking about is not that it is a fact that Jesus is Lord but that we must submit ourselves to the personal rule of Christ in our lives as our Lord.

Jesus is Lord whether we submit to his lordship or not. I guess another way to word the question would be:

Does true saving faith have as a component of it, submission to the Lord Jesus?

There are enough verses to know that true saving faith will prove itself in good works at some time. These works however have NO merit towards our salvation. They are a result of our salvation. The most well known grace through faith verses in Ephesians are followed by: "we are saved unto good works which the Lord has determined beforehand"

One question I have about the submission aspect is: how much is enough? IF submission is required for salvation, does the Lord require a willingness to submit or total submission? Again, this submission could not be a work on the part of the believer but would be a component of saving faith.

I have so many more questions and thoughts but for now look forward to everyones input

Ed

[ozark]

Dougedwards, I don't know about others but when you us the blue font I can't read any part of it. May be an eye defect of mine. Ben

[dougedwards]

Jan 16, 2011 18:14:10 GMT -5 ozark said:

Dougedwards, I don't know about others but when you us the blue font I can't read any part of it. May be an eye defect of mine. Ben

Sorry Ben, it comes across ok on my end but I will do scripture in bold italics from now on.

Doug

[Rifleman]

Well let me pose a few simple questions:

How much work does it take to nullify grace?

Name one man besides Jesus that ever submitted to God in all things?

Whatcha gonna do with the doubt on your deathbed?

[stubblejumper]

Thankyou for the questions because it causes us to dig deeper and determine what we truly believe. Please dont take my posts as a personal thing against anyone. After reading your "twice saved" post I consider you a dear brother in Christ.

As I indicated in my original post I am seeking honest answers to my questions. I believe that much better minds than mine have argued for both sides of this debate and I have tried to fairly present both sides in order to get input here. I appreciate everyones input and it is good to consider opposing viewpoints.

As for your questions: Any work at all that one would consider as having saving merit would nullify grace. However, all works after salvation from a regenerate heart would be proof of receiving Gods grace.

Your second question makes the point that I was asking about:IF (IF) submission is required for salvation how much submission is enough? No one is fully submitted to God in all things. It would seem to be a life long process that we strive toward out of gratitude for our free gift of salvation.

I dont know that either position neccesarily would result in doubt on ones death bed. Paul took comfort in knowing that he had fought the good fight and would hear "well done my good and faithful servant" James also considered works as a proof of saving faith.

Much worse than doubt would be a false assurance of salvation on ones deathbed. In the verses of Mathew that Doug quoted above, the people that cast out demons, etc would seem to have died thinking that they were saved. From my take on these verses it is possible that they thought that their works would save them, but nevertheless, they had a false assurance of their standing with Christ.

My agenda is actually to better understand both sides, because I believe that there is a lot of common ground that can unite the body of Christ where unnecesary divisions exist. Unity at the cost of truth however is not an option.

[Rifleman]

With Gods grace I hopefully in the not to far future hope to write another piece which should address the many questions raised in this thread. They are very important questions and like most questions of this type reveal much about the level of understanding of those that pose them. This venue is a difficult one to address questions like these given the time neccessary to do it right, citing the correct passages of scripture to back up what we say. To long and to often the traditions of men take precedence over the Word of God. Make no mistake I have serious issues, serious disagreement with much as to what has been said here and I believe I have the scriptures to back up my position. However I don't believe a debate is what we have here, nor do I want to enter in to one. We want to help people not hurt them. I will say this though as one enters into a deep study of the Word involving these topics, there will be some very real pain as a person once again realizes they have missed true Bible salvation and have a counterfeit. The enemy is more dangerous then we realize. Salvation is simple, it is also sure and positive. Forgiveness is complete and absolute. Bible Faith that counts is a KNOW SO thing, not a hope so. I have been where so many of you are obviously at and my heart goes out to you. I will again state I hope to be of some real help in the near future but I can see right now this is going to be a huge task as I prepare the text. However I am no ones hope. I just refuse to not help anyway I can. Let me say this in conclusion for now. First get a real Bible, the Old KJV is God's Word for English speaking men and it is the only version not copy-righted, the only one not bound. All other versions were created to make a profit. The traditions of men supplanting the Word of God making it of none effect as the different versions do not say the same things. We have a more sure word of prophecy, make sure you have it. Secondly it sometimes takes much digging to get through our own deep seated religious traditions as Jesus stated when speaking of the wise man who built his house on a foundation seated on the rock. There is pain and confusion as we go through this process, but it will be worth it all when true forgiveness is realized for the very first time. Do not settle for not knowing 100 percent. The Bible says we are ALWAYS confident.
Lastly let me encourage you to obtain a copy of the book I mentioned, feel free to Pm me and I will send you one free of charge. It is a study guide on these very topics. It is written directly to the very religious, very educated person who has these questions. It will be very helpful.

[dougedwards]

Dwight......I am very much encouraged to read and discuss anything that you present concerning this much debated theological subject of salvation. I am no theologian and no bible scholar but am always eager to learn more concerning God's Word. I do, however, agree totally that this is a most difficult venue in which to discuss such life impacting issues without running the risk of being misunderstood. If this were being done in any other hunting, fishing, shooting forum I would advise against it. Over the years it seems that the men who frequent this message board (in general) are less prone to make defensive types of accusations and seem to be truly here to help each other. I pray that we can maintain a spirit of Christian love as we discuss such heated issues.

As for a response to your three questions I can only respond with my layman's opinion in this way. Although our sanctification may be reached through a process our salvation is not. We are saved or not saved. We are wheat or tares. We are sheep or goats. Once we receive the free gift of salvation we are changed.....for good! This is because we now have the Spirit of Truth residing within us that was not present with us previously.

Now a saved and regenerated man or woman is still able to sin just as before BUT........this same born again Christian is NOT able to continue to participate in any particular sinful activity for the long period impervious to the influence of the Spirit that brings us to repentance. The Lord disciplines and rebukes those that he loves. Consider David who is credited with some of the most heinous sins but he was still loved by God. Now, David did suffer for his sinful activities but his love for God was greater than the sin that separates us all from God.

If any man has any question of his salvation he only needs to ask himself one question. Do you honestly love Jesus? If a man's honest answer is YES then according to the Holy Scriptures that same man must have been transformed by the regeneration offered by the Spirit of God. We are, by our very human nature, at emnity with God and remain in such a state until we receive God's free gift of salvation.

Once a man has accepted this free gift from God he is now responsible to live by God's standards. Not by the standards of this world in which he previously indulged. Twice the bible states that all who are saved are engaged in a process of being transformed into the likeness of the Son. Tp refuse to submit to this process is going to be painful as some of us have already experienced and continue to experience. But in the end there is NOTHING that can justify our inate sin.....nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Doug

[Rifleman]

My questions were not for my sake but were rhetorical for the benefit of others.

You mentioned Matt: 7:22-23, I am sure these folks if they asked themselves if they loved Jesus would honestly answer yes, but they are deceived. To set any mark for proof of salvation other then the record the God gives us in His Word of the redemptive death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is IMO in error.

Anyway like I stated before I am pretty much done with this thread not because of any offense but because of my real concern for the welfare of others. I see much error here and it is indicative of a lost condition from my understanding of the Bible. With Gods grace I hope to sometime soon maybe start a thread like I used to do on shooting lessons, but this time on "how to know for sure you are saved" lessons.

[ozark]

Please consider my remarks as based solely on my persional experience. I don't need any scriptures to convince me that I am accepted by God. He convinced me in a way that left me free of doubts and questions.
I see the bible as a great guide book and historical record of events that occured. It is also a proficy of that which is to come. However salvation is a personal experience between the individual and the Holy Spirit. The alll knowing, all powerful God can and does deal with us as individuals and knowing what we can believe and accept provides us with a special blend designed just for us. It will leave no douhts or questions. It establishes a partnership between you and God. You don't need to try to change, that too is automatic. I am no preacher but perhaps I can leave with you a thought that you can take to the bank.
God is either the most important element of our lives or the most cruel bunch of BS that ever existed. He is a reality or a man made fake. Those of us who have experienced a personal contact with the Holy Spirit will have no doubts on our deathbeds. We know where we stand and although we cannot prove our position to others we need no proof for ourselves. There is no greater feeling in life than to know that the Almighty God accepts you. I thank my God for erasing all doubts. I have not mentioned Jesus in this article. That is because I see the Godhead as One. The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost is IMO all one.

[dougedwards]

I guess I am not finished with this thread because there is still much to investigate. Let me say first that I believe what is written in 2 Timothy 3:16

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Even though the scriptures have been translated from the Hebrew mind into a Greek language and then translated into German and Old English there is still truth to be found there. Sometimes scripture seems to contradict itself but the absolute best way to interpret the Holy Bible is to take a look at the entirety of what it has to say about any particular subject.

Even people living in today's culture can be misunderstood if we were to take everything that comes from a man's mouth as if it were complete and literal.

Suppose Man A says that he would die for his children.

Then Man B says well prove it by killing yourself!

Then Man A says that he meant that he would die for his children under certain conditions such as if they were being threatened by bodily harm.

Man B responds with.....well that is not what you said. You said that you would die for your children. Plain and simple. Why are you now adding conditions to it?

But yet we will hear many people say that if the Bible says it then that ends it because the Bible speaks no lies. We will extrapolate one verse from the Bible as if that one thought stands completely on it's own. There is a scripture in Acts 2:21 that states that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord, the same shall be saved. Simple huh? That isn't hard to understand yet this scripture was simply quoting the prophet Joel who was speaking about the very last days before Christ would put an end to all destruction. A time when there will be no options but to recognize that Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

When we read that Jesus said that wide is the path that leads to destruction and many will take it but narrow is the path that leads to life and there are few who find it, What do we do with that? Why is there few who find it? All we have to do is just simply call out the name of Jesus and we are saved right? Why don't all people just do that?

I mentioned Matthew 7:21 as disturbing to me because of the many television evangelist who confess Jesus as Lord time and time again in their broadcasts, only for us later to discover that these same evangelist have been using scripture for their own monetary or sexual gratification. These men are truly workers of iniquity even though their speach quotes Bible verses.

If we truly read the whole Bible....not just the parts that make us feel better about ourselves..... we can only conclude that along with spiritual rebirth comes a change of heart. I will leave you with this passage from the eighth chapter of the Book of Romans which starts off with...there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

[deadon]

Hey guys, It seems you are always directly talking to me. Rusty

[dougedwards]

Jan 17, 2011 20:00:11 GMT -5 deadon said:

Hey guys, It seems you are always directly talking to me. Rusty

Rusty.....none of this applies to old men with bad feet ;D

[stubblejumper]

How about middle aged men with one bad foot?

Thank you guys for your posts and especially with the humble manner in which they are done. I did not intend for this to cause any hard feelings at all between anyone and apologize if this was a misuse of this board.

I do believe that such discussions are good as iron sharpens iron but this may not have been the proper venue.

God Bless

Ed

[Rifleman]

There are no hard feelings on my part, just concern for others. I do not feel equipped at this time to help as much as I would like, and so think it better at least from my perspective to wait until the Lord equips me to address these matters in the way that they demand.

[dougedwards]

Last summer my family and my sisters family went on a camping trip to my favorite lake snuggled in the mountains of Virginia. Staying at the camp site was a couple of families that dressed like the Amish with the women looking like something from Little House on the Prarie and the men with long beards with no mustache. They caught my curiosity because even though they looked like Amish they were driving a $200,000 motor home.....LOL

I couldn't help myself and walked on over to introduce myself and asked them about their particular culture. They were Old German Baptist of the Brethren and it didn't take long for the conversation to center around their beliefs and theology. As I shared my spiritual experiences with them it soon became obvious that they held totally different Christian viewpoints from myself but it was invigorating to share thoughts and doctrines with them. As I left them I told them that someday when we reach heaven we all will be suprised that none of us were right about everything. They laughed and bid me farewell.

The next morning my brother in law and I got up before day break to go fishing and got back to our camping spots at about 10am to find that these same Brethren were sharing coffee with our wives and kids. They had come over to tell me goodbye before then left to go back to Ohio. We shared some stories with them and prayed with them before they left. It was obvious to me that the Holy Spirit was upon them.

I tell you this story of my experience with these odd characters who dressed funny to illustrate that God's people can show Christ-like love to each other in spite of doctrinal differences. However Satan has been crafty by using the Christian man's pride against him. Those that baptise babies can't worship with those that don't. Some believe that the sacriments taken at Holy Communion actually turn into the blood and body of Jesus as they take it. Those that don't believe such a thing just can't worship with those folks. It goes on and on creating a segmented body. If Satan can't take our salvation from us he will work to separate us as embers from a campfire being tossed from it's source of heat.

Rifleman has shown concern for each one of us with divergent views. He has gone so far as to say that error is an indication of a lost condition. That takes guts to say as that sentiment could easily be taken as an attack on a man's faith in general. Satan really would like to come out a winner on this one but we are able to stand against him when we show the love of Christ to each other. I can't end here without inserting some scripture from the book of Ecclesiastes written by the wisest King of ancient Israel.

9 Two are better than one,
Because they have a good reward for their labor.
10 For if they fall, one will lift up his companion.
But woe to him who is alone when he falls,
For he has no one to help him up.
11 Again, if two lie down together, they will keep warm;
But how can one be warm alone?
12 Though one may be overpowered by another, two can
withstand him.
And a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

[ET]

Stubblejumper

This is a good topic that I have been following. Many thought provoking comments have been made but part of me wonders if through our reasoning are we complicating the word of God.
I consider myself a simple person given an ongoing soul that at the moment resides in a physical body that God created. Eventually my soul will be separated from my physical body and has one of two destinations, heaven or hell. The outcome for the destination of my soul is my choice. In order to go to heaven I have to accept the wonderful gift of salvation and acknowledge Christ as Lord. For me that was noted with the criminal who was crucified with Christ that now resides with Christ in Heaven.

I imagine many pages can be written about what happened here and many assumptions could also be included but what stands out for me most is the criminal acknowledged he deserved the punishment he was receiving and acknowledged Christ as Lord of a kingdom that he desired to join Him upon physical death.

Now what is new to me is the term “Lordship Salvation”. Even though they go hand in hand they are separate items to me so to speak. Salvation is a gift from God we have to accept and Lordship is acknowledging/accepting who Christ is. Accepting Christ as Lord means also accepting his Word and Teachings and a desire to follow His example. To me one can’t exist without the other and accepting Christ as Lord occurred first in my life before I felt I could claim the gift of Salvation.

Yes there will a be a life changing processing going on during one’s lifetime here on earth with the aid of the Holy Spirit now in your life. Yes we will stumble at times as foretold and our repentance and confession of our sins is also an ongoing process. Until we are released from our earthly bodies we will not be totally free of sin.

This part had me confused when I first became a believer.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have WE not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Over time an enlightenment occurred because one word stood out, “WE”. It sort of says credit sinful me for what I have done.

Let me propose a scenario and a few questions.

You come across another person who has a need and God compels/motivates you to help this person. This person afterwards expresses his gratitude and praises you for the wonderful person you are.
Now my question is, who actually deserves this praise and gratitude?
If God deserves the praise and gratitude do you make this person that you helped aware of this and accept the role of God’s servant carrying out His desire/will?
In the end when you appear before God do you wish to present to Him all that you have been credited done good in His Name or when you do God’s will for others make them aware this comes from God and delight in hearing from God “Well done faithful servant”?
Bottom line for me is that I can do nothing good that would originate from me but God can do good and wonderful things through me when my life belongs to Him.

I will admit my walk with God is not easy and stumble a lot but His Love and Grace will always carry me if I place my trust in Him.


Ed

[dougedwards]

I have discovered that this subject matter has greatly influenced me to study the scriptures. There is an awareness in me that says that it is possible for a man to say just about anything in deceit including a confession that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. But I am to worship God in Spirit and in Truth and I discover that Truth by reading the word of God. Does the Bible actually say that if a man only speaks the truth that the truth is in him? Does the Bible say that it was Jesus that completed the attonement for all sins, so if a man only just recognizes that fact, then that same man is saved from eternal damnation?

Consider John 3:16. We all know the passage that says that whoever believes (Greek word pisteuo) in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. But what does the word "believe" mean? Let us allow the scriptures to interpret itself. We also find this particular word (pisteuo) in the same Gospel at John 11:15 where Jesus said that He was glad that He was not there to prevent the death of Lazarus so that His disciples might believe (pisteuo).

Let us not stop at only the 16th verse of the third chapter of the gospel of John but let's read the whole thought. It continues:


18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Why is John now talking about "deeds" of men?? Why is he adding that a man's deeds reflects that same man's condition? Didn't he just say that all a man has to do is "believe" that Jesus was raised from the dead to be saved. Where is all of this talk about deeds coming from?

Jesus said that a man should consider the cost before that same man takes up his cross to follow Jesus (Luke 14). Why would we count the cost first when all we have to do is verbalize that Jesus was raised from the dead to be saved? Is there any expectation of a change in that man's life once he truly believes in Jesus?

Also why did Jesus, when asked by His disciples to show them how to pray, teach them to ask for the forgiveness of their sins? Don't we only have to do this one time to be saved? Isn't the recognition that Jesus was raised from the dead as an attonement for all sins and our subsequent water baptism a once and for all time event? Why would we pray that our sins be forgiven if they have already been forgiven by our recognition of the attonement act?

How do we explain the myriads of scripture passages such as Romans 15:18 that mention "obedience" as a result of conversion. Be careful not to extrapolate any single verse or verses from the whole of a thought being presented by the author of any writing lest you run the risk of misunderstanding it's meaning. The Bible seems to make it crystal clear that to be born again is to experience a change in heart. We are not to judge the heart of any man by that man's deeds because that is God's job. But we are compelled to recognize the tree by it's fruit. Any man who has chosen to count the cost and take up his cross to follow Jesus will show evidence of this in his life. Not necessarily so for the man who only believed that a particular event happened two thousand years ago.

More to come

Doug

[stubblejumper]

Head knowledge of facts and trusting Christ are not the same thing.

[dougedwards]

Jan 25, 2011 0:38:25 GMT -5 stubblejumper said:

Head knowledge of facts and trusting Christ are not the same thing.

Yes, but which is neccessary for salvation? Isn't that the question that you are asking?

Doug

[stubblejumper]

IMO the bible is very clear that we are saved by God's grace through faith (pisteuo, trust).

This trust is based on certain facts about the gospel but goes beyond just knowing them.

I would think that satan knows all of the facts about the finished work of Christ (and trembles) It would be unthinkable to say that he is saved.

Trust is knowing the facts and then putting my complete reliance in Jesus for the forgiveness of my personal sins based on what he has done. Myself, I cannot say to him "Lord, I trust you for eternal life but I dont trust you to tell me what to do with my life here on earth."

[dougedwards]

Oh Oh Stubblejumper. You have really done it now. You speak truth and Satan is not very happy with you!

Doug