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Post by thehuntsman on Dec 16, 2010 10:18:16 GMT -5
I am building a Dickert flint lock long rifle with a 42" 1:70 twist Green Mountain barrel in .50 cal. I have been shooting inlines for many years, but this is my first foray into traditional ML. I would appreciate some guidance on loads and projectiles. I was told by Hornady yesterday that this gun will not stabilize the PA conical and I am limited to round balls. As an inline shooter I load some pretty hot smokeless and BH209 loads and have harvested deer at over 300 yards with my Savage. It is my nature to wring all the performance and range out of all my guns and take some risks for performance. For example, the other day I was discussing loads for a 300 gr. Gold Dot with an engineer from Speer and I told him I was shooting 53 grains of H110 behind a Barnes 250 TMZ at 2550 fps out of a T/C Encore handgun with no signs of pressure. He told me I was shooting a pipe bomb. This will be a big change for me and it will be difficult not to push this gun to the limit with suitable ammo. My goal is to have a humane 125 yard gun for whitetails, which after reading alot of info, is more realistically 80 to 100 yards. Any help or warnings would be appreciated.
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Post by DHinMN on Dec 16, 2010 14:19:05 GMT -5
Read the thread below yours by smokepole. I'd say you are definitely limited to round balls. A one in seventy twist will not stablize a conical. When I started shooting muzzle loaders, 54 caliber was fairly popular as a round ball shooter. It gave a little more weight to the round ball and therefore a little more lethal.
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Post by DHinMN on Dec 16, 2010 14:24:25 GMT -5
By the way, has the Encore been converted to smokeless?
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Post by thehuntsman on Dec 16, 2010 15:22:00 GMT -5
I'm sorry, that incedent with the Speer engineer was loads for a .460 S&W Encore handgun. My wife was waiting for me to accompany her to the store while I was writing, so I was in a hurry. Anyway, what kind of ballistics can I expect with this long rifle shooting round balls and realistic performance on white tails? I have really enjoyed this project and plan to build a .54 Hawken next for larger game and conical shooting.
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Post by smokepole50 on Dec 20, 2010 10:13:43 GMT -5
Do yourself a favor and by a .54 cal Lyman Great Plains rifle kit for about $250-$300 and use it for your hunting rifle. Shoot you custom flintlock at Friendship, IN NMLRA meets.
Flintlocks are cool but if you are not use to shooting them they can be very hard to shoot, especially when you need to make a fast shot. They also, at least I would think so IMHO , loose more pressure out the vent hole then does a precussion cap gun as the vent hole is a straight tube leading from the powder charge and it is a short tube. Have you ever noticed that smoke ring that leaves the side of the flintlock when it is fired. the ring is formed from pressure jetting out the hole.
You might want to be very careful in selecting the point for your vent hole. If you are using a large Syler lock then it is possible to use a SS vent liner for your flash hole that will allow you to screw in a drum later on when you get tired of a flint lock and want a precussion gun. The body of the lock is the same size for both large Syler locks. I have never done this myself but I have been told by a old time flintlock builder and distant cousin that it can be done.
You can push round balls pretty fast with a round ball barrel. I think it should not be hard to reach 2200 fps with a .50 cal. using 110 gr of 2 or 3F. That should give you a lethal shot at 150-200 yards if you can hit what you aim at which should be the lungs. Round balls work best if you remember to think, I am using a bow not a cannon. Old timers use to tell me, load them till they crack. You will here the difference when you are still burning powder when the ball leaves the barrel.
With round balls you can also load for bear to use at close range. Have you ever heard the expression "Loaded for Bear" ? It really works quite well but don't get caught doing it as it is not legal in most states to hunt with. Just patch one RB and seat it just below the surface of the muzzle with the short side of your ball starter. Next seat a second RB on top of the first and push them both down the barrel AT THE SAME TIME. That last step is very important or you can blow yourself up if you don't get ALL the air out from between the two RB's. When you shoot the rifle the RB's will print one over top of the other. The further you get out the more the RB's will spread. At 50 yards they are about 4-6 inches apart.
Smokepole50
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Post by 10ga on Dec 20, 2010 17:55:43 GMT -5
Woowee! Taking a big step back in time. I had 1 flintlock and traded it for a percussion gun years ago. Still have 7 smokey guns. Some inline and some sidehammer and like real bp best in them. That 42" barrel is the way to go. I shoot 110 gr FF in my 58 with a 27" barrel. Also shoot 90 to 110 in my 50 with 60" twist. Get a big white paper, sheet, cardboard etc and put it in front of you when you shoot. Check it after each shot and when a lot of unburned powder starts to show up you are at max load for that barrel. The weight of ball and tightness of patched load will have some effect on the max load but not much. The powder will have some effect too. I find Swiss to be a bit "hotter" than the other powders and for duplication of loads use a bit less of it than KIK or Blackdiamond or Goex. For patches I use "pillow ticking" which I buy by the yard at yard goods section of big box stores. Also lurk about "goodwill" and other "thrift stores" and pick up the linen items. Usually in the ladies suits section and real linen is a great patch material. The used clothes are cheap and pre-washed. Yeah, wash the pillow ticking, couple times if necessary to get the starch "sizing" out. You might try .495 and .490 RBs and even some .485 or .483s if you can find them. I like the smaller ball and thicker patch combo in my guns. I shoot .565s in my .58 gun. Lately I have had to install peep sights on my smokey guns for hunting as my 60+ year old eyes can't see sights any more. I use "firesights" on the front and a Lyman or other peep on the tang. If your eyes are good, when you get the gun shooting you should be able to keep all shots in a 4" bull at 100 yd. Lotsa shooting. Much like my old BB gun. After a while I could just look at a target and hit it just knowing where the gun would shoot. That much shooting. It is fun to do and That is why I've kept my smokey guns going. It's about the cheapest shooting you'll ever do except for rimfire stuff. You don't have cap cost so it's RBs and BP! Cast your own makes it even cheaper, especially if you shoot a lot. If you buy KIK or Blackdiamond in bulk it's less than $12 lb. some places. 100 gr charges gives about +- 65 shots per lb. plus prime powder. Longest shot taken for deer with .50 rb was 97 yds and was DRT with high shoulder shot clean pass through. I was shooting 110 gr of FF Goex in a 27" barrel with 1/60 twist and a aircooled RB of 1-1 WW and soft lead. You're in for some immense fun. That is until it's rainy, humid, foggy, wet etc... and ML hunting season is open, then it's caplock time. Best, 10 ga
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Post by smokepole50 on Dec 20, 2010 18:59:57 GMT -5
10Ga..........
Did you ever try using wax around the edge of your pan to help seal the powder from mositure?
I have never even shot a flintlock but I have been building one for going on 15 years. I bought all my stuff and started, got my Syler lock, Davis DS triggers and trigger guard inlayed. Installed my barrel, heck I forget now what they are called, the things that the wedges go threw to hold the barrel in the stock, staples maybe. Cut out my custom 4 piece patch box and when it came time to start shaping the curly maple stock forend I stopped and that was 10 years ago. I got in over my head and was worried about screwing it up. Heck the parts cost $600 15 years ago. I should have chosen a easier build like a Dickard but I went for a fancy one. I need to pick it back up again and start shaping it and install the nose piece and thimbles.
Smokepole
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Post by 10ga on Dec 21, 2010 10:14:35 GMT -5
Smoke, Yeah I tried about everything and the only dependable ignition saver for the flint gun was carrying it in the time period authentic blanket type sleve/case and just taking it out when there was a shot presented. Worked great from the treestand but for still hunting etc it warn't so good. It was one of the "kit" guns from Cabellas and looked good and worked wonderful when the weather was good. As you know it's a bit moister here in coastal eastern VA than out in "them thar mountains". The deal that I made was good and it's not regretable as I still have the gun that I traded for. Merry Christmas to all! 10 ga
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Post by sw on Dec 21, 2010 19:58:13 GMT -5
Consider this load. 80 g FFg 0.495 RB with a WW with a 0.01 patch, preferably dry lubbed. Then slowly work up to possibly 110 gs with 2.5g increments. Do this at 75 yds off of the best rest possible. There will likely be a cluster in this vertical line of hits. Use the middle of this cluster for your load. FFFg will be too fast, ESP for a 42" barrel. Elephant powder is often a little more accurate than GOEX but not necessarily. You might consider Pyrodex Select if it will ignite well. Don't deform your RB on loading. Good luck. My 1857 Gremler replica(Ozark Mtn Arms last rifle) with a 35 1/4 Shilen 50 cal progressive twist barrel(77-54) does best with 85g GOEX FFg, 0.495 Hornady and 0.01" Wonder Lub'd patches.
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Post by 10ga on Dec 27, 2010 18:34:19 GMT -5
SW, I don't think Elephant BP is still made. Equipment sold and moved and used for another brand of powder. I think Black Diamond? KIK and Black Diamond are about the cheapest BP you can find now.
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Post by rick59 on Feb 20, 2012 23:21:24 GMT -5
Do yourself a favor and by a .54 cal Lyman Great Plains rifle kit for about $250-$300 and use it for your hunting rifle. Shoot you custom flintlock at Friendship, IN NMLRA meets. Flintlocks are cool but if you are not use to shooting them they can be very hard to shoot, especially when you need to make a fast shot. They also, at least I would think so IMHO , loose more pressure out the vent hole then does a precussion cap gun as the vent hole is a straight tube leading from the powder charge and it is a short tube. Have you ever noticed that smoke ring that leaves the side of the flintlock when it is fired. the ring is formed from pressure jetting out the hole. You might want to be very careful in selecting the point for your vent hole. If you are using a large Syler lock then it is possible to use a SS vent liner for your flash hole that will allow you to screw in a drum later on when you get tired of a flint lock and want a precussion gun. The body of the lock is the same size for both large Syler locks. I have never done this myself but I have been told by a old time flintlock builder and distant cousin that it can be done. You can push round balls pretty fast with a round ball barrel. I think it should not be hard to reach 2200 fps with a .50 cal. using 110 gr of 2 or 3F. That should give you a lethal shot at 150-200 yards if you can hit what you aim at which should be the lungs. Round balls work best if you remember to think, I am using a bow not a cannon. Old timers use to tell me, load them till they crack. You will here the difference when you are still burning powder when the ball leaves the barrel. With round balls you can also load for bear to use at close range. Have you ever heard the expression "Loaded for Bear" ? It really works quite well but don't get caught doing it as it is not legal in most states to hunt with. Just patch one RB and seat it just below the surface of the muzzle with the short side of your ball starter. Next seat a second RB on top of the first and push them both down the barrel AT THE SAME TIME. That last step is very important or you can blow yourself up if you don't get ALL the air out from between the two RB's. When you shoot the rifle the RB's will print one over top of the other. The further you get out the more the RB's will spread. At 50 yards they are about 4-6 inches apart. Smokepole50 Where can I get one of these kits for those prices? The best I can find is $450 for that same kit. Thanks
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Post by 10ga on Feb 22, 2012 21:45:24 GMT -5
Rick, I don't know about prices but Dixie Gun Works and Track of the Wolf have about the best selection of traditional ML stuff available. I'm glad to see Troy and Clint back together, "choot em Clint"! Best, 10
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Post by smokepole50 on Feb 23, 2012 22:02:28 GMT -5
Midsouth Shooter Supply............ www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000156031112$381.27.........The price has gone up a good bit 10-15 years. I paid $215.00 for my rifle kit. They are out of stock right not but should have them by 6 March 2012. The kits are or at least were very high quality kits and very accurate. I can hit a coke can every shot at 50 yards, or at least I could before my eyes started to go down hill.
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Post by rick59 on Feb 24, 2012 8:58:39 GMT -5
Midsouth Shooter Supply............ Thanks, I didn't think to look there.
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