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Post by KerryB on Feb 18, 2009 15:19:43 GMT -5
Not many guys do the sort of shooting that Richard and i do where you use a borescope regularly to watch the condition of your bore. The problem is that a borescope won't show this sort of bulge. The best method to check for a bulge is to push a tight fitting sabot bullet combo or a tight patch on a jag through an unloaded barrel with the breechplug out. You will feel the loose spot if there is one........and Richard said that he and Herman both did this and there isn't any loose area. The other method is to look through the barrel at a bright light source which will usually show a bulge as a dim, shadowy area at the location of the bulge. Sounds like Richard did no damage and i doubt that the upper load of powder ignited or it might have blown the barrel as it had an obstruction (bullet) on both sides of it. I also question the validity of the velocity reading as it would be difficult to get that much speed with one powder load that was pushing almost 500gr worth of bullets (2 200gr), sabots (2), and a 62gr powder load trapped between the two bullets. With that much "debris" crossing the chrono sensors...........who knows what portion of the column triggered a reading. This is another classic example of a good reason to use a marked ramrod. I think this speaks well of the safety of not only the PacNor barrels, but with the Savage design in general. RBinAR mentioned the merits of the Savage design in a post a few days ago and this is a perfect incident to illustrate this design superiority! These incidents happen with a fair amount of regularity and will continue to happen............thank goodness for the Savage over-engineering that went into this design! KerryB
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Post by mshm99 on Feb 19, 2009 18:37:59 GMT -5
Of all the things I've lost I think I'll miss my mind the most. I shot two laser bore sighters out of the end of my 45-70 in the last 6 months. You are not alone Richard. Glad you were not seriously hurt.
mshm
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Post by Richard on Feb 19, 2009 19:54:55 GMT -5
Well, I have had time to digest what everyone had to say plus my own evaluation of the situation and I have made a decision. First of all, $420.00 is a lot of money to just throw away. Its easy to say, junk the barrel and buy a new one! Well, this happens to be 2009 and we are under the OBAMA regime now and my stocks and retirement funds have shrunk smaller than a "you know what in a cold shower!". Someone said well, just get a used barrel from the trade blanket? Darn, I already got an extra .50.... I want a .45 and I don't see any for sale for about $75! The fact that I was able to fire three 2900+fps loads out of the rifle after the FUBAR, tells me that there can't be too much wrong other than a couple of thousants bigger bore at a point about 4.75" forward of the breech. One of the reasons for the .45 was also to shoot some sabot less bullets. With that bulge where it is, a bullet like ya'll describe would get too loose by the time it contacted the powder. So NG. I did some serious measuring with a good 1" to 2" micrometer to see how far I had enough diameter to support a decent thread. What I found is this....Pac-Nor's major thread diameter is 1.057 for the full 1 1/2" it is cut. The barrel diameter forward of that run 1.056 out to 4.7" from the breech then drops (past the bulge) to 1.050 to almost five inches. Pac-Nor cuts a very tight thread. So tight that I almost thought the action would not screw on all the way, but it did. There was literally no play between the action and barrel. I then checked my Savage barrel and found the following.......Savages thread STARTS at 1.050 (.007" smaller than Pac-Nor) and ends up at 1.038! Their barrels are literally cut on a direct taper from breech to muzzle. And, in so doing, their threads just get smaller and smaller the further they get away from the breech. Big Difference! So, the fact that I have a minimum, all the out at 5" of 1.050" and the majority of it is 1.056", I decided to cut three inches off the breech and have it re-configured. Either by me or by Pac-Nor. This would put the major part of the bulge inside the receiver and barrel nut which will act as a sleeve for reinforcement. Even though I personally do not think their is a strength problem. Since I am not quite up to speed on cutting internal threads, my thought was to buy a 11/6 x 16 tap from MSC to thread for the BP ($34.00) A carbide full profile insert to cut the exterior thread (20 tpi) would be $24 Plus shipping, I might have $65 invested and am confident I could handle the job. Remember, I am not a full time trained machinist so this would take a little time on my part. The outside threading is a piece of cake, its just the interior that would take some time and sweat ;D. So, next I figure I would call Pac-Nor and see what they had to say? Well, after going over the whole story with Penny - Nice lady! She said yes, they would do it! How much? $100 plus shipping! I said "SOLD!" The barrel is now on its way to Oregon! By doing this, the bullet will be well into the good part of bore and I will have a "carbine" 23" long. Glad I ordered 26" Richard
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Post by Richard on Feb 19, 2009 20:35:24 GMT -5
Initially, I had indicated that the Two bullets from the double, could not be seen? Wrong, as I was re targeting my wood frames, I came upon both holes. One was 18" high and to the left of point of aim just cutting the wood frame and the other 12" high and right cutting the wood on that side. I always check my frames for holes and "bondo" in the shattered wood. My frames last and last! Just and aside, speaking of frames, I also counter sink small bubble levels on the top of my frames. Then when I set them, I can make sure they are level. This is a good reference for the crosshairs on you scope. Easy to tell if your rifle is perpendicular. Richard
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Post by ET on Feb 19, 2009 20:55:03 GMT -5
Richard
A barrel at 23” will shoot accurate. When I previously cut my QLA off my old 50 barrel, about 1-1/2” making the barrel length 22-1/2”, she shot nice. At least until my double load experience occurred.
As for the cold shower shrinkage the construction guys refer to that as “Turtled”, like what a scarred turtle does. These characters sure have a way with words for a unique lingo. ;D ;D
Ed
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Post by Richard on Feb 19, 2009 21:01:41 GMT -5
Ed.......Yes, I totally agree on the accuracy aspect of it, its just that there might be some loss in velocity (for what thats worth : I don't shoot my 1,000 yd. rifles as fast as they are capable of so whats maybe 75 fps? Richard
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Post by ET on Feb 19, 2009 21:17:14 GMT -5
Ed.......Yes, I totally agree on the accuracy aspect of it, its just that there might be some loss in velocity (for what thats worth : I don't shoot my 1,000 yd. rifles as fast as they are capable of so whats maybe 75 fps? Richard I agree 75-FPS is not a great loss and some of that can be easily made up. It will be interesting to see if that much is even lost to begin with. Ed
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Post by edge on Feb 19, 2009 21:18:52 GMT -5
IMO, you made a great decision.
edge.
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Post by jims on Feb 19, 2009 22:04:05 GMT -5
I will be the first to admit I did not think they would redo the barrel, I felt you would have to do it yourself. A good idea to send it to them. I have the tap you need, I had to get it for my work. It is a relatively cheap one because it had a limited use, I was not going into production like Savage. It may have been made in Mex. The machinists out there could decipher the markings if needed. Other than delaying you, you will soon be good to go. I am in a delay mode myself awaiting resizing dies. Good luck.
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Post by Richard on Feb 19, 2009 23:08:43 GMT -5
I agree Jims. I sort of did not think they would do the work either, thats why I was doing my research to get what I needed if I had to. Penney was very sympathetic to my problem. Richard
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Post by craigf on Feb 19, 2009 23:11:42 GMT -5
Richard, IMO you made the best decision. I don't think that using your barrel in its current condition would likely cause a problem, but I would hate it if by some chance you got hurt. I am glad that Pac Nor is doing this for you and hope that it gets them a couple of more barrel orders from us for it!
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Post by dannoboone on Feb 19, 2009 23:18:36 GMT -5
Richard, if you want to duplex and have some H355 laying around, 7gr 5744 as a primer powder and 53 to 54gr of H355 under the 200SST/Harvester sabot ignited by a CCIm is REAL accurate in my 27" PacNor tube. HOWEVER, H355 is much too fine to use as a single powder. Need to get a decent day when I have the time to chrony this load. Danno that's very clever. I had said balls could be used as a primary but you are the first I've seen that actually developed a load. That's h335 ?? Ohhhhhh, jeeez, thank-you RB for the correction. It's VERY dangerous to mis-typo a powder suggestion. Sorry EVERYONE. Yes, indeed, I meant H335 (thank God, I don't believe there's such a thing as H355). I developed the load using Hodgdon's Reloading Data Center (among other sites). The .444 Marlin cartridge is loaded with H335, as well as some of the other powders used in the 10MLII such as H4198. However, the CUP is about the lowest with H335, whereas H4198 is about the highest. I haven't tried more than 54gr of H335 in the above duplex because it has given such good accuracy in my .45 tube, but plan to play more with it when the weather warms a bit. Have found that shivvering is not conducive to decent groups. ;D Thanks again, RB for the correction.
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Post by olegburn on Feb 19, 2009 23:30:19 GMT -5
Richard,when sending your barrel for "bettering" ,would you please ask their technicians if they won't mind to perform an analysys of a bad section and tell what they think. This way we may get some "free" tutoring from the pros. Bad ordeals have always brought benefits with them,IMO. I've learned quite a bit from following your post and sure others. olegburn
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Post by rexxer on Feb 20, 2009 5:26:29 GMT -5
Glad to see your on the right track again! Many of us felt your pain.Thats alot of money but now it should be good as new.
I checked the dia. of my new barrel and it was .4497 Did you ever check yours?
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Post by sw on Feb 20, 2009 14:33:55 GMT -5
Richard, I think with the same load you would loose possibly 75'/sec; but, especially with duplex, you can use a slightly faster burning load and likely not loose nearly that much.
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Post by artjr338wm on Feb 20, 2009 15:47:55 GMT -5
Richard glad your OK and the most damage you suffered was to your pride. I'm not trying to sound preachy or like a know it all but I would like to suggest to you the system I use as a way to greatly limit the chances of a double charge. I am not suggesting you adopt it word for word, as it is more drawn out than most people would like, but simply to give you something to possibly base one of your own on.
While spending countless hours here gathering info for use with my 10ML-II prior to buying it, I came across a post who's authors name escapes me, that described the system he developed specifically to keep the chances of a double charge or a incorrect loading of any sort to a minimum. This is the range loading system I use as a result of reading that post.
<>#1-I do not ever use my ram rod for loading at the range, and it it stays stored in my PVC cleaning rod holder while I'm at the range. I only use a one piece brass "T" Handel cleaning rod. I do this as I feel I will far more likely notice that I have left a quite heavy all brass 36" long range rod in my barrel VS my lighter ram rod. <>#2-I took a piece of oak 10" long by 6" wide by 2" thick. I took a wood bit and drilled four holes in a row on 2" centers. Each hole is drilled to a specific size and depth to hold securely in this order a powder vial, a sabot, a bullet, and a primer. <>#3-Just like when I'm reloading for metallic cartridges, when I'm loading my 10ML-II, I never, never, ever have more than one component out on the shooting bench at a time. All my individual components are stored in their own dedicated .50 caliber ammo cans. My powder vials are stored in plastic 12ga shell containers prior to going into the cans. I also do not mix powder vials containing different charge weights of powder. Each separate group of powder vials are stored in their own plastic shotgun shell containers. I label each plastic container that holds my powder vials and tape them all shut, only breaking the tape seal of the powder vials I plan on using, and once I go to a different weight powder vial, if I have any unused powder vials left, I will tape that container shut again, if its empty I simply leave it in its ammo can.
When it comes time for me to shoot, I go to each ammo can remove in a this order one each of a sabot, bullet, powder vial, and lastly primer and place them in their alloted holes in the wooden block. I then close up each container and place them on a separate table I take with me to the range.
Prior to adopting this system I had on several occasions loaded my Encore with a bullet before I had loaded any powder, but since having gone to this system, I have had a perfect (knock on wood or something) loading record to date. Thats been for over 400 shots and counting.
The point I guess I'm trying to make is you are best served if you use a loading system that never allows you to have more than one each of your load components on the bench at any time ever while your shooting. This system may sound some what extreme and even to much, and possibly so. But I also feel you should have some sort of idiot proof (as is possible) loading system to minimize as best as can be done any loading mistakes. This system also gives me something to do while my barrel cools after I preform my IBSCM.
Lastly while I am loading my 10ML-II or any of my MLs, I simply do not talk with anyone at all. I, as politely as is possible explain this to anyone I meet at the range and my friends are already aware of this policy of mine. All the loading mistakes I have ever made with my Encore all had one thing in common; I was talking to some one while I was loading.
Just something to think about. Be well, Arthur.
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Post by Richard on Feb 20, 2009 17:38:59 GMT -5
Art: Lots of good points to ponder. I am thinking of a wooden dowel maybe 4 to 5" long with a 2x2" red flag attached that says: "LOADED!" Upon loading the rifle, if it is not put directly onto my rests, insert the flag while I BS! Definitely the "witness" mark on my new T-handle ram-rod. I have to say, for the past 1300 shots since getting the Savage, I have been pretty diligent about my loading proceedures.........But, it only takes once! olegburn ......I don't know that I want to pester the technicians at Pac-Nor. I would feel that if they were to find something array, they would call me. I personally see a machinist using a band saw to hack off 3" then indicating it in his lathe and preparing the breech. Maybe they have access to an exray machine? Seriously, those three 2900+ loads should have caused a weakened barrel to give out.........and it did not! ? Richard
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Post by dave d. on Feb 20, 2009 17:51:53 GMT -5
:)richard i'm glad you are going to have the barrel cut down and i'm glad pac-nor is doing it.they are great people to deal with and they sure are proving it.
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Post by Dave W on Feb 20, 2009 20:04:25 GMT -5
Like Art and Edge, only components for one load at a time on the bench and I have a system with my range rod that tells me where I'm at in the reload sequence, can never be too careful.
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Post by screwbolts on Feb 20, 2009 21:24:08 GMT -5
Richard, I like the way you think! ;D I did mention that a short tube will shot great ;D Have you thought of asking Penny to have her guys save for you the Shank they cut off? or did you cut it before you sent it to them? It would seem to me that this short piece of rifled barrel could be used as a tapered gauge to help you size Boolitz for shooting Sabotless. You can always say yo had it custom tapered ;D we will never tell ;D Thank god you weren't HURT, I mean real serious like! Ken CNY "We cannot expect the Americans to jump from capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of socialism until they suddenly awake to find they have Communism." - Soviet Leader Nikita Khrushchev, 1959
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Post by olegburn on Feb 20, 2009 21:25:52 GMT -5
Following this post a thought came to my mind- will moderators be willing to make a sticky or a something that is dedicated to tha safety while Muzzleloading( target and hunting)? I am a member also of one forum where they have a topic where folks share their mishaps,discuss safety and so forth... Topic has a lot of entries and subject named "Unloaded gun that FIRED!" or something like that. We are dealing with guns that are loaded one load (or two ) at the time every time and sometime many times a session and it requires attention each and every time. Somebody here said that Accidental discharge will happen-just a matter of time- but we owe it to ourselves to minimize the statistics. What you think? olegburn. P.S. It could all possibly be covered in the tips and hints section somewhere,but lot of us mostly read this section.
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Post by ET on Feb 20, 2009 21:34:13 GMT -5
I am basically using Arthur’s method of once I start loading I wont stop until the loading is completed and when the 10ML-II is placed on my rest a live primer is inserted in the open bolt head. Then I stop to talk to someone if they want my attention. When done I always check my bolt head for a live primer. If no primer is seen I still check the bore with my ramrod before proceeding to load.
I paid what I now consider a cheap price for a double load once and don’t plan on allowing that to ever happen again.
One other consideration I also now employ is when having to rush to get some range time in. If I can’t relax and keep focused when at the range because of a short limited time frame I don’t even bother going with the muzzle-loader or just keep to a CF rifle.
Ed
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Post by Richard on Feb 21, 2009 20:51:19 GMT -5
Screwbolts.........Fist of all, I did have them save me the 2" barrel drop when I ordered the barrel. Spoke to DW who made one of those bullet sizers...............NG he said! Also, the part of the barrel being removed is the breech end which has the external and internal threads so it would not work anyway. What I did ask Penny to do was save me that breech end. I am going to section it length wise for demonstration purposes. Richard
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