Powder tests in the Sub Zero

[jeff]

Last night temps went to -14F here in S/W Iowa, so I preformed another home test, I Loaded four ml2'2 with four different powders and the same sabot/bullet combo[300 grain XTP Standard short MMP] Federal primer, left them out on my deck with taped muzzles and fired them all before I left for my store at 445am this early Am. Time loaded was 10 hours in below -14F temps all night. Interested? Keep reading

43 Grains 4759----Fired
43 Grains 5744----Fired
70 Grains H4198--Fired
60 Grains N120---Misfire


The reason for this was because I sat In a ground blind last night in-1F for three hours waiting for a doe to come out, saw only a buck and that season is over last week, so I unloaded at the truck and the N120 misfired after 3 hours. I had been at my range yesterday am in minus temps and shot 6 shots out of that canister to recheck the scope on that ml2. Just a piece of mind for myself.
Jeff~

[wilmsmeyer]

Good stuff. If you can do more side by side testing that is great. Having 4 guns makes it a better test then trying to reproduce these with one gun.

My idea would be to try the same exact test EXCEPT...revolve the same loads in different guns to rule out a loose bore in the gun that misfired. Just an idea.

[jeff]

Got ya two different guns on the n-120. Must a got alot of sleep the night before. ;D
Jeff~

[larry]

Jeff, Keep up the good work. It would be really interesting if you shot those loads through a chronograph to check the vel. in the cold temps- especially the n120.

[dwhunter]

I'd like to see N110 thrown in the mix as well but would bet that it's as reliable as 4759.

[edge]

Very good info!

edge.

[Savage Shooter]

I have been saying over and over that n120 alone is prone to misfire in really cold temps depending on sabot fit.

The guys that I have helped setup a n120 load for 300gr bullets I use a duplex with 8gr of N110,5744 or 4759.

I work up a load for a particular gun by starting with 8gr of selected booster and about 40gr of N120. Add to the N120 ONLY until you get velocity up to about 2200 to 2250 fps.

That seems to be a good speed for the 300gr'ers.

[sw]

Jan 15, 2009 11:54:09 GMT -5 Savage Shooter said:

I have been saying over and over that n120 alone is prone to misfire in really cold temps depending on sabot fit.

So have I.

[tar12]

The 300 grn xtp and black mmp is to loose of a fit IMO.I have tested down to 0 with N120 and the BO with the BCR.Zero misfires.I have 3 rifles here.I will load up with N120 and N110.I believe we are looking at minus 8-10 with minus double digit wind chills.Will report back in the am.

[dave d.]

:)very good report jeff...

[445supermag]

very good stuff here. Most interesting. thank GOD NJ doesn't get that cold atleast here in South Jersey.

[Richard]

I don't have to deal with temps quite that low here in NC, but have switched from single powder loads for 300 gr. bullets to duplexes. Can't beat having a booster to get things "up to speed" reliably. Kind of like starting your car out in first gear vs. fourth ;D
Richard

[jkruger]

I'm jelous ,we've only gotten down to -8 this week. lol
Doing some testing also w/ n110.

[tar12]

As promised here are my results from this mornings very cold shooting test.I loaded to with n120 and one with N110.
60 grn N120-BCR-FED 209a-300 BO-BANG
60 grn N120-BCR-FED 209a-300 BO-BANG
38 grn N110-RCB-FED 209a-250-XTP-BANG
It was 8 below this morning with a windchill -12.
There was no hestitation in ignition.I reloaded all 3 guns with componets that were stored out side as well last night.3 more bangs,but,they were all a real chore to load!I weigh 280 and I am 6 ft tall.It took everything I had to load these puppies!Mind you that these were dirty bores from hunting season.I will be trying other combos here shortly for giggles.Will update.

[445supermag]

WOW,,,Jeff gets no bang with N120 and you get bang after bang with it. makes me feel better. I wounder if its loading technique IE Pressure applied for you seating your bullets.

Not saying Jeff didn't do it properly as we all know thats impossible but wonder if LOT # of powder or moisture or whatever caused it not to fire.

Very interesting to say the least.

Thanks to you guys for doing this sub Zero temp shooting. I wonder what the chrono would say??

Brian

[jeremylong]

velocity and point of impact would be super cool too

[sagittarius]

I assume, you didn't have to wait 15 minutes between shots at minus 14F.

[Chris Champion]

Posted by 445supermag on Today at 10:50am
WOW,,,Jeff gets no bang with N120 and you get bang after bang with it. makes me feel better. I wounder if its loading technique IE Pressure applied for you seating your bullets.

Not saying Jeff didn't do it properly as we all know thats impossible but wonder if LOT # of powder or moisture or whatever caused it not to fire.

Very interesting to say the least.

Thanks to you guys for doing this sub Zero temp shooting. I wonder what the chrono would say??

Brian

Its all about sabot fit. The loads that Rick (Tar12) uses are tight fitting combos. BO with Harvester Black Crush rib and I think the 250 XTP and the red crush rib in his daughters gun.

When a proven powder, (especially a book load), does not go bang there is most likely some moisture present.

And by the way...my chrono would say its too d**n cold out here you moron...get back inside the house ;D

[Savage Shooter]

Velocity will surprise you in cold weather, depending on sabot fit.

I stay away from "on the bubble" loads, loads that are on the bubble of providing enough pressure build up for consistent ignition and dependable progressive burn.

A bit of booster makes sabot fit moot, only accuracy will dictate sabot used then.

I still think that initial obturation plays into accuracy also (booster helps that also), but that is another topic.

[tar12]

Jan 16, 2009 10:51:33 GMT -5 jeremylong said:

velocity and point of impact would be super cool too

POI was right on @ 80 yds for all 3.It was to cold to be fooling with the chrony.I do not hunt in these conditions so it matters not to me.When the temps moderate closer to actual hunting season temps, I will chrony then.

No waiting Sag! ;D I had "Q" there handing me componets.. ;D
He grumbled a bit about getting dragged out this morning..sissy wrestler... ;D

[lundy]

I had to try this after reading everyone's thoughts.

Both of my Ml-11's were in the truck overnight along with my loads in the box. Temp was -15 overnight and -11 when I performed this test

I went out this morning and loaded both guns with their normal loads and both went bang as normal, no noticeable difference to me.

I do not know about speed or zero, I shot them in my backyard and didn't have enough room to check that.

59 gr, N-120, 300 gr BO, orange sabot, 209A primer.

These loaded a little tighter than normal but not my much. I would say they fit pretty tight all the time but are not difficult to get down the barrel. The barrel was dirty to start with.

Kim

[Savage Shooter]

This time next year someone will post a misfire with these components again. We will have the same discussion as were having now and HAD last year.

[tar12]

Jan 16, 2009 18:15:22 GMT -5 Savage Shooter said:

This time next year someone will post a misfire with these components again. We will have the same discussion as were having now and HAD last year.

You should not have this discussion if the proper componets are used to begin with.I have not had a misfire period with a tight loading combo.To quote the Rifleman"if it aint tight it aint right".

[jeff]

YOUR THE MAN tar
Let me know when I can start your next post.
Jeff~

[ET]

Jan 16, 2009 14:20:42 GMT -5 tar12 said:

Jan 16, 2009 10:51:33 GMT -5 jeremylong said:

velocity and point of impact would be super cool too

POI was right on @ 80 yds for all 3.It was to cold to be fooling with the chrony.I do not hunt in these conditions so it matters not to me.When the temps moderate closer to actual hunting season temps, I will chrony then.

No waiting Sag! ;D I had "Q" there handing me componets.. ;D
He grumbled a bit about getting dragged out this morning..sissy wrestler... ;D

Hey Tar12

With that label you tossed at Q it should get him cranked for his next match. ;D

Even if you took that chrony out I bet that battery wouldn’t last long or the electronics might not function accurately either in these temps.
Today was a wicket cold day with the wind chill factor, at least –15F this morning. Yeah I am a sissy too but smart enough not abuse this aging body more than I have too with outside exposure. Yep no Eskimo blood in this body. ;D


Ed

[sw]

The duplex of 10/60/250XTP with the 60 being VV-120 and it's loss of >700'/sec from 70ish degrees to about -4 degrees(F) caused my concern about it's temp sensitivity. I had a mis-fire in a non-Sav 45 cal MLer with VV-120 and somewhat tight 200SST/sabot about 6 years ago. The load might not have been tight enough. While we need to be testing to see if a load goes off(virtually all will IMO) the "main concern" should be velocity loss, group size, and impact point at the longest anticipated range.

[youp50]

I was busy at the range today. 10 below, the windchill doesn't matter to machinery. It sucks to be in it. I take a known centerfire along. This 308 shows to be a moa capable rifle with 150 gr Sierra over 44 gr of WW748. It was 83 fps slower than at 10 degrees above zero. WW is a ball powder and I probably should be using magnum primers for better ignition. I shot 2 three shot groups and could barely maintain 2" centers. Glasses fogging, frozen sand bags, rickity rest, and variable cross wind to boot.

This is the first time I have shot this combination. CCI 209M, 458 Hornady 300 grain, 44 gr SR4759, HPH EZ 3P. Loading pressure as follows. 60 to 70 pounds to engrave the sabot past the QLA cone. 50 to 60 pounds to run sabot to powder, 90 to 100 to seat powder to sabot. These measurements were taken in the basement on a bathroom type scale with the first load of today and tomorrows first load. They seem to be consistent with what it feels like on the range. There are other folks that use the range. I can here it already "Two range boxes, another for your chronograph, and a bathroom scale... you gonna be bringing the sink next? " ;D

The accuracy ran right at three inches. I was also dialing in a different scope.

Shot #1 1969 fps low velocity possibly from dry patching the barrel prior to starting this observation.

Shot #2 2041 fps
Shot #3 2057 fps
Shot #4 2076 fps
Shot #5 2076 fps
Shot #6 2080 fps
Shot #7 2070 fps
Shot #8 2083 fps
Shot #9 1918 fps low velocity possible from 'rapid fire' I immediately loaded and fired after shot #8. All other shots had plenty of cool time. I would walk the 100 yards to the target to generate body heat.

Shot #10 2123 fps This shot was beginning to load real hard signifying a badly fouled barrel. Perhaps this caused the higher velocity. Test was called due to the fouling. Temperature may have had a bearing on the decision. It was 4 below on the return trip.

I like the consistent muzzle velocity. I think the load can be fine tuned to acceptable standards. This load will provide minute of deer accuracy to the 200 yard range. All sabots recovered had all petals sheared off and a nicely flared base.

Many years ago I had a chance at a good buck during ML season. I was in the river bottom behind camp. It was 15 below on the top at camp. The cap popped and failed to ignite the load, second cap set it off. First cap sent the buck on his way. I quit muzzle loading until I found my ML-10. My current goal is to find a load that always goes bang.

[tar12]

Jan 16, 2009 19:07:13 GMT -5 jeff said:

YOUR THE MAN tar
Let me know when I can start your next post.
Jeff~

Jeff,
I always try to post with the intention of adding something positive and consructive to a post.I am sorry that you did not see the info. I posted as such. I was not trying to "steal" or "Hi-Jac"your post,but rather simply trying to share information.After all that is what this board is all about.If this is bothersome to you,I will try to refrain in the future.

[tar12]

Jan 16, 2009 21:57:49 GMT -5 sw said:

The duplex of 10/60/250XTP with the 60 being VV-120 and it's loss of >700'/sec from 70ish degrees to about -4 degrees(F) caused my concern about it's temp sensitivity. I had a mis-fire in a non-Sav 45 cal MLer with VV-120 and somewhat tight 200SST/sabot about 6 years ago. The load might not have been tight enough. While we need to be testing to see if a load goes off(virtually all will IMO) the "main concern" should be velocity loss, group size, and impact point at the longest anticipated range.

I agree absolutely.With the swing you mentioned, it does in deed breed cause for concern.I did not bring the chrony today as I will not set in brutal weather like that.But now you got me thinking I need to check for real hard numbers....it would not be a bad idea to see where the break down point is...

[wilmsmeyer]

I think Jeffs initial findings are interesting. I also think that my idea of "revolving" the same loads in his 4 guns would be interesting too. It may sort out a loose barrel gun AND rule out a powder problem. This is something a one-gun-man couldn't do! It would be hard to have 4 days in a row that cold OR have the time to do this with a busy life. Imagine if that one gun having the misfire showed a tendency to misfire subsatntially more then the other 3....with all powders. It would focus attention to other things like small differences in bore size. This would mean a ton to a one-gun guy who has experienced a problem in this area. JMO

Don't stop trying things Jeff...or anybody else for that matter. Old Tar has a bunch of "outside" shooting and hunting episodes under his belt with 3 different guns. His input is as valid as yours and should be noted. N120 apparently fires well for him and I can't remember any muffed shots being reported by him in the temps he has been in. Many times threads end up taking a different course then the author intended, just like any conversation or "debate". Don't sweat it and keep the info coming.

The other points made on velocity, POI and SD's are also extremely valid. The gun going BANG but shooting substantial slower could be a bigger issue then a mis-fire because you would be falsly confident that your gun is shooting fine but it's not.

I say we install a very powerful refridgeration unit in Edges tunnel/bunker and do some testing down there. Or book a trip to the Yukon Territories and have our ML gathering there and get to the bottom of all this. ;D ;D