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Post by grouse on Aug 26, 2010 21:51:28 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2010 22:24:31 GMT -5
yeah but thats Wakeman, hes a savage salesman, kinda like you, the new knight salesman
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Post by Al on Aug 27, 2010 2:12:02 GMT -5
looking at the Optima Pro at the bottom of the page, to me it doesn't look like a BP failure, and what looks like rust baffles me also. Wish he would state a little more on the loads used too.
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Post by topusmc on Aug 27, 2010 5:50:49 GMT -5
CVA has paid their dues, why carry on with it. They have done a world of good for the Muzzleloader world, and doing better all the time. Their past reputation will live on because of folks like Wakeman and the rest of CVA critics, at least untill something else happens to other Companies products, God forbid. I just reciently got a Bergara ML .45 cal barrel for my T/C Encore. As I had mentioned in other forums this barrel side by side with the T/C barrel shows greater performance, and far better cosmetics. The breach plug is far superior to the T/C 1/4 turn, which is hard to get in and out at times. I have had them all at one time or another. All had pros and cons, but all good guns. I plan on having an Optima by the end of the day. I will probably keep my Encore's as I have had them ever since their entry into the Muzzleloader world , but there is room for the Optima in gun safe. Wakeman does have some good advice.
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Post by ourway77 on Aug 27, 2010 7:29:54 GMT -5
Top I agree, CVA was a ML'er anybody could afford. I remember Bass Pro selling them for $98 dollars which included a starter pack, The majority of the people who bought them took them out of the box loaded them and the first time they pulled the trigger BOOM. But of course it was the rifles fault. Had he read that the rifle is to be loaded with BP 80 grains max. I never owned one and probably never will. They have made great progress in building better ML'ers still at a decent price. I remember reading that some of thier ML'ers will handle three pellets That was a mistake on thier part. Because you have these supposed to be knowledgable people out there who say well if it will handle three I think I will try 4 or even 5 especially when the hear that the bad bull will hanle this, Again BOOM now there goes another bad rap for the manufacturer. It's very easy to blame the manufacturer. A friend of mine bought one he asked me if I would shoot it in for him I agreed I have to say it really shot good with 90 grains of BP when I said what I had loaded loose powder only 90 grains he was some what dis appointed as the literature boasted 3 pellets. I explained to him that most ML'ers that claim to handel 3 pellets are wasting powder. Well he was happy he killed his Deer. So all you fans of CVA shoot them according to manufacturer recommendations no more but remember all you need is less than 100 grains of BP to do the job. Lou
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2010 7:51:46 GMT -5
Whats sad is when you see the new guys using older model sidelocks and shooting 150gr loose powder because they see the inlines doing it. Or even inliners shooting way more powder than recommended by the powder manf. says to.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2010 7:55:45 GMT -5
Also forgot to mention that a gentleman on my site is from Germany and hes loves CVA and wants to start a hunting group there as muzzleloading is starting to take off. Bad thing, inlines havent been highly available. He ordered a couple cva's already and they HAD to be send to the proofing house before he was able to legally own the muzzleloaders. Those CVA's passed without a problem.
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Post by savagebeast on Aug 27, 2010 11:35:28 GMT -5
Yes, lets us all line up for the Kool Aid that Randy & Toby are serving.
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Post by swampman on Aug 27, 2010 19:52:09 GMT -5
I have no faith in Toby but Randy speaks the truth. Unlike some here he doesn't work for CVA. The problems continue and nothing has improved.
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Post by whyohe on Aug 27, 2010 20:41:09 GMT -5
if you look at almost any manufacturer the all have had some bad rap. Look at the savage. I also remember when the T-7 first came out and people where putting it in some CVAs and some went boom. Even though T-7 says that 110 grns is equal to 150 of reg BP, people still put 3 pellet. so in essence they over loaded the gun. so some blamed T-7 cause people see 3 pellet/150 grn and throw it down the barrel and they said its confusing and un safe. who do you blame?
we all have our favorites and all have their good and bad points it all in what you like and what you prefer and can deal with.
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Post by rossman40 on Aug 27, 2010 21:29:33 GMT -5
You have to remember that the early problems were with the extruded barrels. Now RW fails to remind everyone that 10 years ago he was pimping Austin & Halleck MLs. A&H also used the Bergara extruded barrels and the actions were made and final assembly was done right down the road in Spain. A&H did go for supposedly a different heat treat and proofing and then had a 100gr max on the charges. Now the Bergara barrels made with traditional barrel drilling and button rifling is a totally different animal but RW and friends still suffer from "spanish fever". If you buy a CVA, Traditions, Winchester or even a Remington Genesis your buying a Spanish made ML.
My question is how many of the low cost models are still using the extrusion method for making the barrel. I can not see a $100-150 ML using a drilled and button rifled barrel. Is the maker going to tell you which one has a extruded and which one the better quality barrel?
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Post by Jon on Aug 27, 2010 21:42:05 GMT -5
I would like to think that the people on this board are here because they care and would give an honest apraisle no matter what they prefer. Jon
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Post by artjr338wm on Aug 27, 2010 23:01:40 GMT -5
My deer and elk hunting career has spanned over two decades in which I have had to learn countless 100s if not 1000s of lessons, some were painful or expensive, and thankfully few in number were both.
But none I more firmly believe as 100% truthful than this: You simply can not take anything a company hired gun like TB says about any product as anything more than WHAT HE IS BEING PAID TO SAY!!! and if he is being paid to say it he will say what ever they are, for lack of a better way to state it, FORCING/PAYING him TO SAY!!. What pro hunters like TB say or products they endorse or are tying to sell and for that matter all hunting personalities, be it one that is free lancing like TB or works for anyone of the hunting rags, what ever thay say you can count on it being ANYTHING except truthful.
I do not blame TB and his like, thay have found a way to make a living none here would say no to and most if not all would give anything shy of one of their children to be in his shoes, I simply do not view anything any of them say as anything more than salesmen trying to sell me something, and when looked upon in the harsh light of the truth are in reality like ALL SALESMEN, are only trying to get me to part with my hard earned money by selling me something I do not need and have even less use for, but that is any good salesman's job, is it not.
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Post by hunter on Aug 28, 2010 5:37:16 GMT -5
Well said Art. In my opinion no truer words were ever spoken.
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Post by swampman on Aug 28, 2010 6:19:28 GMT -5
That's why I have no faith in TB and the fact that he blew up his Savage on purpose. Rany on the other hand has not been caught in a lie. He's been putting out the truth for years. A&H proof tested their barrels here in the states. On 1 company proofs their barrels.
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Post by rossman40 on Aug 28, 2010 10:07:51 GMT -5
Yes but those of us that has known RW for over 10 years knows that nowadays he will tought the Savage line and lets say "strech" things a bit to make his rambling point. Not trying to put him down, just my opinion.
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Post by savagebeast on Aug 28, 2010 17:20:59 GMT -5
Randy openly admitts in his article that he has not evalutated any of the new stuff so how does one make a judgement. From his article, Quote As a professional firearms evaluator for many years, I have reviewed CVA products before. I've never declined to review a CVA-branded product, but I've not actively sought the opportunity as of late, either. And for those of us who are on the Buy American band wagon and stay away from the foreign crap, do we honestly believe that every single item/component in our TC"s, Savages, Knights, such as Synthetic stocks, screws, fiber optic sights, ect, ect! are all American made? To place that stamp on the box all that is required is that a certain percentage of the finished product be assembled here in the states. If The CVA"s are as dangerous as Randy says I would think that we would be hearing about widespread problems on a constant basis. And would such reputable companies such as Cabelas, Bass Pro, Gander Mountain want to be liable selling the CVA line if this were the case?. I guess I have a hard time with people who have to bash and slander other companies to promote their product. Just my two cents.
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Post by swampman on Aug 28, 2010 19:01:42 GMT -5
I have a problem with companies just copy other companies products and then dump them on the market for nothing until they put everyone else out of business.
I don't mind foreign made guns if they are well made. I recently bought a Lyman GPR but I sold it because it took several days to get everything working right and the quality/workmanship wasn't as good as my T/Cs IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2010 20:29:28 GMT -5
well you do have to watch what you say when you complain about copying from so and so.
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Post by swampman on Aug 28, 2010 21:19:51 GMT -5
Everything CVA & Traditions produces is a cheap copy of an American product. It put Knight out of business and T/C isn't doing well either. Pretty sad and makes a real statement about the "copyist".
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Post by swampman on Aug 28, 2010 21:22:27 GMT -5
well you do have to watch what you say when you complain about copying from so and so. Yes T/C uses screws. All guns use screws. I don't like the design or any breech plug that doesn't require tools to remove.
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Post by falcon on Aug 29, 2010 15:29:54 GMT -5
There are no facts on that Randy Wakeman site. Wakeman is in the pockets of a putrid Tulsa, OK personal injury ambulance chaser. When some idiot blows up a muzzleloading gun using smokeless powder Wakeman is on the case.
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Post by falcon on Aug 29, 2010 16:19:12 GMT -5
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Post by bteague on Aug 29, 2010 16:46:56 GMT -5
Falcon your about a year or two late on those
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Post by swampman on Aug 29, 2010 17:08:22 GMT -5
There are no facts on that Randy Wakeman site. Wakeman is in the pockets of a putrid Tulsa, OK personal injury ambulance chaser. When some idiot blows up a muzzleloading gun using smokeless powder Wakeman is on the case. False, Randy is right on the money, the spanish guns that blew up were not through carelessness, ignorance, or dumbness.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2010 17:32:52 GMT -5
how do u know hes right on the money? u seem to just follow him around and you have no info yourself. You just repeat here say.
Any case hes been on to help his lawyer friend, they never accept his testimony.
Using smokeless powder in an optima and kodiak is all 3 of the words you listed above.
New guys that do use recommended loads are often using powders that leave crud rings and that space it leaves produces high barrel pressure.
Funny thought i had earlier this morning... I fire 4 + THOUSAND shots on up every year with my CVA muzzle loaders. If anythings going to happen with a cva today, next week, next month, next year. It most likely be me because my CVA's get so much use each and every day LOL.
Starting on this coming tuesday, If you dont hear from me for a week or more, I simply am out filming a couple bow hunts in new mexico. So dont worry guys. i promise i will be ok!
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Post by bteague on Aug 29, 2010 17:34:02 GMT -5
Swampman.How do you know that?Have you seen the guns with your own eyes?Do you know the shooters involved?Or are you taking RW word as fact?Billy
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Post by bteague on Aug 29, 2010 17:36:56 GMT -5
Falcon.The guns RW wrote about are BP guns not smokeless.Billy
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Post by swampman on Aug 29, 2010 18:56:22 GMT -5
And they weren't fired with smokeless.
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Post by bteague on Aug 29, 2010 19:35:00 GMT -5
Is that a question or a statement?
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