.308 semi auto

[orion]

Anyone have any experiance with the AR style .308 rifles.

Thinking about doing some horse trading and buying and AR-10/ DPMS Panther or other variant, or M1A.

Any opinions on reliability, accuracy, etc.

I am staying away from G3, FN/FAL, Cetme, all good guns but I am looking for something more modern with customer service if needed.

[rossman40]

Having played with both the AR-10 and M1A, for the long run reliability and consistency the AR-10 would get the vote. You have to tweak to get maximum accuracy but with the M1A it is constant tweaking and every time you pull it out of the case your POI has shifted.

With the AR-10/SR-25/M110 your better off IMO, you do have to watch mixing parts. Armalite and Knight parts are not too bad but when you start throwing in DPMS and Bushmaster parts look out.
The Bushmaster BAR-10 and the Rock River Arms LAR-8 are both POS so stay away from them. Knights are few and far between and expensive. Armalite/Eagle still expensive but excellent quality. I haven't really played much with a DPMS Panther but hear mixed reviews.

As far as accuracy if you think your going to beat .5 MOA you might as well stop now and buy you a bolt gun. DPMS likes to brag on accuracy as good as a bolt gun but I think they used a 710 Remy for comparison. Even the Army specs for the M110 are a .68 radius for the group.

I would look for a used Armalite AR-10(T) [target version] with a barrel that isn't toast and try that out and find someone with a Panther that would let you try it out. Now if you can find someone with a Knight SR-25 with one of Boot's barrels that would let you take it for a spin,, you might walk away knowing you could never be truly satisfied.

[orion]

Thanks for the info, you give me a good place to start.

I saw in the National Rifleman that Lewis Machine, or Lewis Tool is making some variant. Have you heard anything on those? Apparently the Brits, are contracting with them for some.

Also, any thoughts on direct gas impingment vrs. piston?

Your help is appreciated.

[rossman40]

The problem you run into is that there is no standard or milspec so you get variance between manufacturers. You have to remember only about 10,000 AR-10s went into military service and most of those were made overseas. The SR-25 (now the MK 11 Mod 0) is a favorite of Delta, SEALs and the Marines and supposedly a favorite of the IDF (as one crazy cajun told me "dem jews know dare guns"). The Army's first contract for the M110 is only for 903 rifle kits. Now that the M110 is in the NRA rule book as a official service rifle perhaps that will really get the interest up and more quality aftermarket parts.

Cost is another thing, the DPMS Panther or even the Remington R-25 (same gun) is cheap but so is the lower cost Armalites (I think they are down to less then $1500 range now). You could probly beat one MOA. Hopefully availability is back to normal, at one time last year DPMS said it had a one year backlog

You step up to the Armalite Super SASS or the Lewis (LMT) MWS and your in the $2500 range. The SASS would be maybe a bit more accurate but your still looking at busting .75 with a lot of bells and whistles you might not need (but you would be "tacticool").

You go for the mack-daddy, Knights (KAC) SR-25 Enhanced Match (EM) and your at a .5 MOA rifle but the cost is close to $5K.

A interesting fact is one of the guys that works for KAC says they have a couple of the original AR_10s that were handmade back in the 50s in their collection. They will shoot like .3 in a rest.

As far as the piston guns, the piston doesn't mean it is more accurate. Maybe a bit cleaner maybe more reliable for longer maintenance interval. I have shot a couple and there seems to me there is more slaming of parts then with the gas guns

[orion]

Thanks for the input. I will not be worried about the accuracy so much. I have a practical level of accuracy for most of my long guns over the years of 1 min of angle. Reasonable accuracy with great reliability are more important to me, maybe call it consistency. Kind of like you said, "the POI changes every time you take it out of the case" that kind of thing will drive me crazy. It sounds like the AR-10 will do good with out too much effort, which is good, and it sounds like it will do really good if you want to spend the dollar.

When I am older and have more time, I may join the Argonauts on that journey to .5 min of angle and beyond.

Regards

[rossman40]

The M1A POI problems are more then likely due to the wood stock, bedding seemed to work a little. Maybe that is why you seen the change to synthetic stocks with the M21s.

For the money out-of-the-box new it would be tough to beat the DPMS/Remington, specially if you were going to leave it stock. If I had more money and/or was going to spec out a new one or trick out a used one I might go with a Armalite.

You got all these other hi-dollar ones like the SR-25, the Lewis Machine and Tool (LMT) MWS, the Leitner-Wise Rifle Company (LWRC) REPR, Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF) 308 MMR and even LaRue has gotten on the bandwagon offering the LaRue OBR. All hoping to sell to the military, private military, LEOs, SWAT wannabees and armchair commandos.

Interesting facts,

Karl Lewis (the owner of LMT) was co-owner/founder of Eagle Arms. Then Eagle bought the rights to Armalite and re-formed itself as Armalite.

The current AR-10 being made by what is Armalite today is actually the AR-10B. While closer to the Stoner/Knight SR-25 (designed in 1989) then the original AR-10 there are some differences.

More AR-10Bs have been made since 1996 then the entire production of the original AR-10s.

The main enginnering guys at Armalite in the 50s were Eugene Stoner, James Sullivan, and Robert Fremont. Around 1960 things started breaking up. Stoner and Fremont went to Colt, Sullivan went to Ruger. Sullivan went on to design the Mini-14 and the M77.

[Tarheel]

May want to visit the DPMS web-site. Some of their testimonials are remarkable

[cfvickers]

My dad had a stoner a while back. It would shoot inside and inch with match grade ammo. I had an FAL it never once jammed on me, but about 2 1/4 was the best I ever got as far as accuracy. Sold the FAL and the stoner was stolen thanksgiving of 98along with about 60,000.00 worth of other guns. My dad left the safe unlocked for my stepbrother to get his deer rifle out (stupid, why not just get the rifle out for him) he got there and there were no guns.

[nexttime]

Very pleased with my DPMS LR260 once I found a load it liked. !/2" MOA if I do my part. A lot of fun.

[olsmokey]

Have a DPMS LR-308 24'' fluted stainless,will shoot MOA with good ammo. Just a little advice, get the forward assist and the JP trigger from the factory. Then install a set of Hogue grips and an extension on the charging handle. Well worth the extra$$$$. Got mine from BW Outfitters off the internet, cheapest I could find. They are a blast to shoot.

[rossman40]

Tarheel, I'm beginning to think companies hire out of work english lit majors to write 75% of those internet reviews that you see on Midway, Cabelas and others.

[Tarheel]

Aug 7, 2010 22:48:58 GMT -5 rossman40 said:

Tarheel, I'm beginning to think companies hire out of work english lit majors to write 75% of those internet reviews that you see on Midway, Cabelas and others.

That is certainly possible because its easy to make up anything on the net. One thing is that many of those testimonials show targets and loads, which they could be false or shot by different rifles.