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Post by deadon on May 4, 2010 20:04:51 GMT -5
Where would we be as a country if abortion were still illegal? I believe that the radical left has murdered 30, maybe 40 million of their potential voters
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Post by dougedwards on May 10, 2010 18:25:37 GMT -5
I watched a documentary concerning the memoirs of a WWll German officer on the History Channel. Expressed in the diary was a horrendous event where the Nazi Gestopo wondered onto the rural farm of a Jewish family and took each family member outside in the snow and shot them in the head one by one saving the youngest for last. Finally a German officer went back into the house and picked up an infant by the foot and tossed the baby out into the snow. When questioned by another officer as to how he could perform such a heinous act on a human being with no emotion at all... the same German officer replied.
"These aren't people. They are Jews"
Even our founding fathers who proclaimed that every man is endowed with certain rights granted to them by God such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness were able to tolerate and sometimes participate in a slave market that brought thousands of captive Africans to the USA. The native Americans were slaughtered and driven from their lands and even were marched on foot to reservations west of the Mississippi river according to the Indian Removal Act during Andrew Jackson's administration. There was only one way that men could rationalize this treatment of peoples as if they were animals. They had to internally deny the humanity of the negroes and Indians. Since they were ranked as savages, thus less than human, they were granted no God given rights and were often killed with no emotion of regret at all by those who possessed such legal rights.
Today our society recognizes the brutal treatment of any segment or class of people as intolerable and there have been laws established to protect all human beings from such horrendous abuses. The negroes and native Americans were given the right to vote and became an influential force in our legislative awareness. It was a long and costly struggle that gave these peoples their rights to be human. But the struggle remains.
Those people who are in the earliest phase of human development have no vote. Today they are being slaughtered by the thousands while we shoot our guns and play our games. They are being slaughtered for being inconvenient.
No way, not in this country! That can't be can it? Oh yes it can and we do it by proclaming that the unborn, who are sucking their thumbs and are aware of what is going on around them in the womb, are not human beings.
It was inconvenient to have the American native occupying a land that the Europeans wanted for their own. And once they took the land by force it was inconvenient for them to have to work the land with their own hands so they forcibly corralled natives from another land to do it for them. All of this while proclaming the inalienable rights given by God to all men.
Today we, as a nation, remain just as hypocritical as the regime under Andrew Jackson and just as brutal as the Nazi Gestopo. We maintain that a woman has a right to her own body but do not extend that right to the baby living within her. Each woman has a right to protect her body from engaging in a sexual process that will produce such a living child but today our laws only protect the woman.......and the woman can make a choice to send the baby to a dumpster.
How different are we from the Nazis? A bigger question is......where does it go from here if we are legally able to extinguish human life because it is merely inconvenient?
Doug
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Post by huntingmike on May 11, 2010 7:48:30 GMT -5
I wonder also as we age will we become inconvenient to those who care for us and what burden our society will endure as millions of baby boomers overload soc. sec., medicare, medicade and the new health care system? The argument may be it is not worth the cost to keep someone alive who is beyound being productive. If we can murder unborn babies where will it stop when the pressure is on?
Mike
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kudzu
Spike
(dancoman - Old Mess. Board)
Posts: 39
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Post by kudzu on Jun 10, 2010 10:35:45 GMT -5
Here's some stats for ya- 22% of all pregnacies in the U.S.A. (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion - Since R vs W 45 million abortions have taked plase in the USA - 61% in first 9 weeks - 28% occuring between 9 and 12 weeks - that leaves 11% performed after 12 weeks - The sadest stat is that 65% of all women having abortions consider themselves Christians 43% Protestant and 27% Catholic - VERY HEARTBREAKING
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Post by ozark on Jun 10, 2010 14:00:18 GMT -5
This line of thinking could include the killing of the animals that were also created by God. We accept that we have a right to take deer, beef, pork, chickens and other living creatures for food or sometimes just for pleasure like in pararie dogs, wood chuck and expecially million of insects. I personally feel that there is a innerdependency involved. The flower cannot reproduce without the polination of the insects and the insect cannot life without the nectar of the flowers. One could wonder how one survived until the other came into being. I have been told that you cannot be saved by viewing everything intellectually. I was told that you simply had to believe and go on faith. It is impossible for some folks to believe things which isn't rational and conflicts with their brand of logic. Professing Christians often flaunt their beliefs and faith as placing them in some superior position. Like whopee, I have it and you don't. Instead of being meek and humble they act the opposite. I don't know all the answers and doubt anyone else does. I do know that humans of all races including the native americans could not accept that they would die and rot and that was the end. They all found or invented religions which would let them live on in a happy hunting ground, heaven or with a whole group of virgins. What I or you think which is meer belief rather than fact is useless. My whole hope is that God will be a honest Judge of mans life and rule accordingly. If there is no God then some of us will indeed push up daisies and rot. Others will be cremated and avoid the slimmy stinking process of rottening. In my mind and heart I grant all the right to believe and understand the subject of eternity as they are led. I have far to much fear of misleading someone than to profess to have the answer that fits all. I had meant to include in my post that having a personal experience with the Holy Spirit overrides all logical deductions and intellectual considerations. It overrides what you have been taught, what you understood the Bible to mean and provides you with a personal knowledge that you cannot question. But this isn't caused by your desire or hope. It occurs at the pleasure of God. Man cannot save himself. That is done outside our understanding or ability to describe accurately.
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 10, 2010 17:55:30 GMT -5
This line of thinking could include the killing of the animals that were also created by God. We accept that we have a right to take deer, beef, pork, chickens and other living creatures for food or sometimes just for pleasure like in pararie dogs, wood chuck and expecially million of insects.
The other line of thinking suggests that man is only a minute piece of the puzzle of the universe with no more intrinsic value than anything else. The other line of thinking suggests that if there can be any justification whatsoever of the killing of any life on earth then there is also justification for the culling of humans if it were deemed to be for the good of the planet.
I personally feel that there is a innerdependency involved. The flower cannot reproduce without the polination of the insects and the insect cannot life without the nectar of the flowers. One could wonder how one survived until the other came into being. I have been told that you cannot be saved by viewing everything intellectually. I was told that you simply had to believe and go on faith. It is impossible for some folks to believe things which isn't rational and conflicts with their brand of logic.
Sure there is a dependency of life and there is a time for every season. Some may believe that it just happens to be that way while others are sure that it is there by design. It is difficult for some to believe that if they find a fine watch laying on the forest floor that there wasn't a designer and maker of the watch......that it just didn't happen by chance to develop into a watch from the elements of the earth getting together at just the right time and formation. It seems to me that it takes a tremendous amount of faith not to believe in an intelligent designer. But one thing is for sure......noone can tell you what you should believe. Jesus didn't do it. Jesus only came to bring hope into the world. Man was already condemned to die for his sins. The love of Jesus gave us the option of becoming the righteousness of God.
Professing Christians often flaunt their beliefs and faith as placing them in some superior position. Like whopee, I have it and you don't. Instead of being meek and humble they act the opposite.
A very sad but true statement.
I don't know all the answers and doubt anyone else does. I do know that humans of all races including the native americans could not accept that they would die and rot and that was the end. They all found or invented religions which would let them live on in a happy hunting ground, heaven or with a whole group of virgins. What I or you think which is meer belief rather than fact is useless. My whole hope is that God will be a honest Judge of mans life and rule accordingly.
I find it interesting that no matter where you go in the world, there is a human awareness that there is a greater design and designer other than what we humans can comprehend by and with our five little senses. However not all peoples believe in the after life.
If there is no God then some of us will indeed push up daisies and rot. Others will be cremated and avoid the slimmy stinking process of rottening. In my mind and heart I grant all the right to believe and understand the subject of eternity as they are led. I have far to much fear of misleading someone than to profess to have the answer that fits all.
The great apostle said that "IF there was no resurrection then we should all eat, drink and be merry because tomorrow we shall die." If it were true that our only fatal purpose is to rot in the earth then we really should get busy indulging in the flesh. Let's grab for all the gusto that we can get because you only go around once in life. If that is true then the love that we share with others is meaningless because it will be terminated and be remembered no more. Or in the immortal words of William Shakespeare: To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow, Creeps in this petty pace from day to day, To the last syllable of recorded time; And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more. It is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
[/size] Either man has a divine significance or he is merely another element in the vast universe to be heard of no more........signifying nothing. Jesus said to let he who has ears let him hear. We know that not all will hear. Not all will care to hear. But the existence of the Truth will not change with our waiving beliefs. It is the same yesterday, today and forever.
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Post by ozark on Jun 10, 2010 18:18:15 GMT -5
dougedwards, I commend your ability to discuss this subject calmly and without offending others. Your mind doesn't appear closed and your efforts seem to be to increase understanding rather than to come across as opinionated and dogmatic.When we permit others to believe as they are led, we expose the inner goodness and inner spirit of outselves. Thanks. I respect you.
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Post by deadon on Jun 12, 2010 21:20:18 GMT -5
I have been accused of stirring the C@#$ and spreading the stink. I mean no harm and I believe this time it turned it turned out OK, good conversation
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 15, 2010 8:21:50 GMT -5
A little more elaboration concerning Ozark's post. It should be obvious that there really should be no need for those who love Christ to tell anyone what they should believe. People either believe something or they don't. We can't even tell ourselves to believe something that in our heart of hearts we really don't believe. According to the apostle Paul's letter to the believers in Rome, even our faith is a gift from God. It is not us that grants this gift.....it is God Himself!
If non believers do not see the Jesus that lives within the hearts of Christians they certainly will not heed the words of Christians as being an indisputable fact. We Christians seem to be good at pointing fingers but very bad at self analysis.
Before Jesus left his beloved disciples he gave them their very last commandment.......that they love one another. Do you think that our society can see the love of Christ being shared among all Christian peiople? The apostle Paul said that you will know the ones that love Christ by the love that they share with each other. Really?? Is this obvious among the Christan people that you know?
Also within Paul's letter to the Romans is stated that the power of the Spirit that raised Jesus from the grave is available to Christians to bring life to their mortal bodies. Are we as lovers of Jesus tapping into that power? That power is released by loving one another. The early Christians outlasted the most powerful government and military power on earth to the point that the government finally submitted to the Christian faith! That event didn't occur without tremendous sacrifice. Are we as Christians willing to sacrifice our whole lives as living sacrifices?
If all that the unsaved world sees of Christians is a people who go to church then the power of the Holy Spirit is bridled and unleashed among the believers. Without the power of the Spirit there is no conversion and that power is excersised by the love that we share with others. This is a love that is created within our hearts by Christ Himself.
I myself am terrible at loving other people. There is nothing in my flesh that even has a desire to love people that I don't know. Yet through my communion with God through spiritual prayer my desires change. I can't will myself to love others but God has the power to turn my wicked heart from a heart of stone into a heart of flesh. Through my submission to God I am able to submit to others because I love them. Without the love that I am able to show to others through Christ I know for sure that my words concerning salvation will fall on deaf ears.
Jesus said that the very most important commandment is to love God and also to love one another. Void of this power of love the gospel fails to reach hearts even though it may reach ears. Let us as Christians practice on each other. We aren't alone. We have the power of the Holy Spirit through submitting to His power.
Doug
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Post by petev on Jun 15, 2010 8:53:26 GMT -5
This is indeed a reasonable, respectful conversation. Getting back to abortion, I am personally against it, generally, meaning unless the pregnancy is from a rape, or endangers the health of the mother, etc. I think that it is taking a life, but I don't feel that it is society's place to tell everybody that it is illegal. Plus it would push abortion back underground, like it was before the 70's. I guess I believe in the right to choose, and maybe people who are strongly "pro-life" can continue to try to persuade in a positive way, many pregnant women, who are contemplating an abortion, to have the baby. About the Nazis, etc.- times change, today alot of people would be turned off by seeing a pig or deer butchered. Today, in the U.S. we have peace, if it were not so, and we had constant war here, I'll bet that attitudes would change, and horrible things would take place, war seeming to bring out the best and worst in men. I guess the one exception that I can think of, when trying to rationalize violence, are the Nazis. I think that they were mean, sadistic people who didn't do what they did for survival, but just out of a feeling of superiority and self-proclaimed entitlement. I've seen WWII veterans get pretty emotional when recalling the brutality of the Nazis. They got what they deserved, in my opinion.
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Post by edge on Jun 15, 2010 10:32:15 GMT -5
Personally I don't like abortion, but in the first trimester I am not somewhat ambivalent on it. Since the title is Roe against Wade, I do believe that it needs to be revisited in the light of the advances in medicine! Premature babies that would not survive 40 years ago, today their survival is commonplace, and IMO the law should revisit that fact. Now for those that are steadfast in believing that it is a mothers right to abort up until the first breath is taken, I have a suggestion. 1) If the baby is not life until the first breath, and a doctor can do a late term abortion due to the womans mental health, then I submit that the father should have this same right! 2) A Paternal abortion! If the fathers doctor shows that his mental health will be adversely affected ( using the same criteria as the mothers doctor would use ), the I submit that the father should be able to petition a judge. The judge would order the doctor to deliver the baby but prevent it from taking a breath, thereby performing a paternal abortion! I want to know why this should not be the logical legal conclusion of allowing full term abortions? IMO, that would end late term abortions 100% OH, and by the way Obama pressed to have the Illinois law on abortions to read that if there were a late term abortion but the bay survived that the doctor should be able to kill the baby since that was the mothers intent! I do not know if that is currently the law or not. edge.
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Post by dougedwards on Jun 15, 2010 16:48:32 GMT -5
I must say that I just do not understand. If a young mother decides that she is either not willing or incapable of taking care of her newborn infant and decides not to feed the baby, the young mother can and will get arrested and spend the rest of her life in prison if the baby should die of starvation because the baby is totally dependant on the mother for survival. It's not that the mother did anything......the crime is that the mother did not do something.
However, this same mother two months earlier (later in some cases), can make a decision to have her yet unborn baby's skin burned off with a saline solution on the basis of the mere fact that the baby is unable to survive without the support of the mother and with no legal consequences at all.
In the womb or out of the womb the infant child is totally dependant on the mother for survival. Why is the law so stringent at one point and non existant at another point? For me this has nothing to do with politics at all. It has everything to do with the sanctity of human life.
I know that I am a little hard headed but can someone please straighten me out on this point?
Doug
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Post by edge on Jun 15, 2010 17:02:45 GMT -5
Even more bizarre is the fact that a baby is NOT a human for the sake of abortion, but if the pregnant mother is hit and killed by a drunk driver, many states charge the driver with two deaths!
That seems hard to reconcile!
edge.
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jaybe
Button Buck
Posts: 17
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Post by jaybe on Aug 18, 2010 14:15:11 GMT -5
Looks like this discussion died on the vine, so to speak. Since I just got back on here after a long absence, I'll add my 2 cents. The answer to the questions posed by the last two posters is found in the fact that many people do not believe that life begins at conception. They believe that what a mother carries in her womb is only "matter" until the birth takes place, the child sucks air and begins to breathe on its own. Based on this (false) assumption, to terminate a pregnancy at any stage - even completely out of the birth canal except the head (partial-birth abortion) - is not "killing" anything; it is simply ending a "pregnancy". Having once held the pro-abortion position, I now understand that it is only one of many philosophies that normally change when a person believes on Christ as Savior and becomes a child of God. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" - 2 Cor. 5:17 Once I was also blind, but now I see!
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Post by dougedwards on Aug 18, 2010 14:57:35 GMT -5
The landmark Roe vs Wade decision by the US Supreme Court in 1973 determined that a woman and her doctor's privacy concerning her pregnancy was protected by the ninth amendment to the Constitution which reads in part "certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by a people"
This interpretation of the protection of privacy for a woman gave the pregnant mother the full non-restricted right to terminate the pregancy (abort) in the first tri-mester from date of conception. It is also gave the same mother this right after the first trimester with some restrictions which today have become non-existant. However, so little was known about the condition and awareness of the fetus as compared to today's medical knowledge and this needs to be revisited.
But you can bet your bottom dollar that once a right is given to any group of people it is almost impossible to take away or change that right. And......the right of a living child who is sucking it's thumb and looking around in the womb remains non-existant. My problem with this ruling is that it acknowleges no sanctity of human life but grants rights to those who are able to vote. Power makes right. That is the mantra of the political situation of today.
Doug
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Post by ozark on Aug 18, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
In the world we live in today sex is promoted with commercials and every other means available. Girls are taught by visual means how to look tempting and cultivate desires in the opposite sex. Perfumes, skin exposure and by voice sex is invited. It is also a natural urge and thought by many to be a sin outside of marriage. Many girls today will not date boys who refuse to have pre marital sex. That hard to resist urge is without doubt a creation of God instilled in the human. When it results in a pregnancy both male and female feel that they have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar. They feel shame, blame their carelessness and feel obligated to do something. I can visualize a girl thinking: I have no education, no means of paying for the health care and welfare of this child within me. They are afraid and dread the future that they are not prepared for. Naturally they don't want to kill the baby and they know it is a living being they are carrying. They know that destroying the baby is wrong and that they should bravely face the reality of motherhood. Some may not know who the father is and if the father is known he may take the position that he isn't going to change his lifestyle of fun and drugs to support her mistake. I am seeing decisions made by immature girls that are in a desperate situation. I think the best solution is not abortion fs giving birth but education and prevention. Since it is proven that youngsters don't have the ability to control their urges under some circumstances then I would favor a procedure of mandantory daily pills to all who are likely to conceive or a simple surgical procedure of tying tubes in a manner that can be reversed. I am looking at a means of making abortion unnecessary by coming up with a means of avoiding pregnancy. If abortion is indeed taking life then it would be murder and should be treated as such. There would be few abortions if doing so was declared first degree murder for the doctor and the patient. I think about everyone is against abortions but stuck with no reasonable alternative solution. I don't know the best solution but I think there are more ways to kill a cat than choking it to death on butter. I think we should look at all the alternatives and use the best one. We now look at Roe vs Wade. I think it is time to look at the whole ball of wax. Ben
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Post by swampman on Aug 18, 2010 18:24:46 GMT -5
I do not believe that anyone can take a life unless God allows it. If God allows it then it's his business not mine.
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Post by ozark on Aug 18, 2010 20:15:19 GMT -5
Never heard that viewpoint before swampman. It takes away our free will do do good or bad and lays all the glory or blame on God. Or, am I misunderstanding your comment?
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Post by swampman on Aug 18, 2010 21:01:07 GMT -5
God is sovereign. He does what he wants without blame or glory. I don't believe in free will.
Romans 9
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
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Post by dougedwards on Aug 19, 2010 5:52:28 GMT -5
This passage is saying that if God is the Creator of all things and that man is the crown of His creation, then man has not the right to evaluate God based on his own standards. The example given is that of a potter. The master potter takes a large lump of clay and makes a beauiful vase and also a common water jug from the same lump. The question is......does the water jug get to complain that it wasn't created into an artful beauty?? No, because the potter does as he wills. If it were not for the potters hands both vessels would only be a lump of clay. Let he who has ears, let him hear.
Doug
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Post by swampman on Aug 19, 2010 8:14:39 GMT -5
Correct so if God is sovereign why worry about worldly matters. Nothing can happen unless it's his will, and he cannot be judged because he is sovereign.
Keep in mind God hated Esau before he was born.
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Post by ozark on Aug 19, 2010 12:26:12 GMT -5
Roe vs Wade. I guess our opinions means little other than individiduals making their own decisions to abort or not to abort. It is what the courts rule that will decide what is legal or illegal. Man will make this decision, appeal it or not appeal it and that will be what occurs.
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Post by dougedwards on Aug 20, 2010 5:59:25 GMT -5
No....sin will not be stopped by any legislation. It is an inherent characteristic of mankind. But our government doesn't have to endorse and uphold the right to murder another. Neither should our tax dollars go to support such a heinous act.
Doug
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Post by fireevangelism on Aug 29, 2010 22:24:55 GMT -5
Swampman,
Don't let the devil fool you, you are in charge of your own destiny. If YOU choose to repent of YOUR sins and believe in the LORD Jesus Christ YOU will be saved. Yes, God shows mercy on whom He wills, however, His Word tells us who is going to get His mercy, and it is the humble and contrite heart whom God will not reject. I think it was RC Sproul who said when you enter into Heaven the sign over the pearly gates will say "Whosoever will come and enter My rest" and on the other side of the sign it reads "Those chosen of the Father from the foundation of the world".
Blessings
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Post by whyohe on Aug 30, 2010 9:38:01 GMT -5
Roe VS.Wade
Exodus 23:22,23 And in the case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him with out fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it threw the justices. 23 But if a fatal accident occur,then you must give soul for soul. IMO here I see that if a pregnant looses her child from an accident then the one responsible was also to loose his/her life, showing the value of that un born life.
Psalms 139:13,16 13: for you yourself produced my kidneys; you kept me screened off in the belly of my mother. 16: your eyes saw even the embryo of me, and in your book all its parts were down in writing, as regards the days when they were formed and there was not yet one among them. IMO this shows me how precious we are to GOD even before we are even formed our body parts. we as people of this earth have become numb/ immune to things as this world progresses. look back in the early part of this century. how did people dress, their language, how they respected their neighbor. look at movie ratings just 30 years ago. an "R" rated movie then is now like a PG or PG-13 movie today. murder and killing has become more prevalent and daily occurrences in the news and we shrug it off at time because its just another killing. it has become common place now and we begin to accept it as part of daily life.
now what do you think should happen if a pregnacy may harm or kill the woman? example: A 12 year olg girl is raped and gets pregnant. Now this pregnancy can severly harm her cause she is still growing and she may have pemanat deformity or even life threatening complications due to age and other ailments she may have. this may cause BOTH to die. what do you do.
there are complications in wich a adult mother may get that makes a person choose between mother or child during pregnancy on wich will live? and simalarly some of these complications can kill both in the end. so is it better to end the pregnacy to save the mother who MAY have a chance to give bith again or risk both, life of child and mother?
I dont agree with abortion just because some one got pregnant due to lack of protection or by accident. but i see some other circumstances that make me think. Life is important to GOD, so do you think he would want BOTH to die or do you think HE would want one to live?
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Post by bigdaddyg on Sept 17, 2010 21:29:26 GMT -5
Gentieman I have been reading from this post and let me say I am not a educated man nor will I say that I am a Godly man but I am truely humbeld by your words and reading of scriptures, freewill is such a heavey burden I just hope I carry it well brad. I,ll keep reading. thanks.
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