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Post by davidfoor on Feb 10, 2010 16:16:58 GMT -5
Has anyone else seen this? The guy supposedly measured his smokeless powder like you would BP or BP subs, Ouch. I see that the Bushnell 3200 Elite held up well though.
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Post by davidfoor on Feb 10, 2010 16:20:27 GMT -5
Not sure how to get more than one photo in a post. Photo 2.
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Post by KerryB on Feb 10, 2010 21:02:30 GMT -5
I would dispute the insinuation that measuring your smokeless powder by volume instead of weight would cause that sort of barrel destruction! Let me give you a couple of actual cases in point. If you measure by volume a load of 58grs of IMR 4198 which is a common powder that i shoot regularly and then you dump it onto a powder scale to check the actual weight, you will find that it only weighs 53.3grs! That means that you just underloaded your rifle by 4.7grs by using a volume measure (black powder style) instead of weighing it! If you volume measure a load of 50grs of 5744 and then weigh it on a powder scale you will find that you only have 47.2 grains by actual weight or 2.8grs less than you should have if measured by weight! A final and more glaring example is one of the most common powders of all for the Savage smokeless muzzleloaders.........IMR SR4759. If you volume measure 50grs of 4759 and dump it on the scale you will find that you only have 35.2grs by weight! You just got an extreme underload simply by measuring by volume. Now every powder has a different density and will vary slightly from my example, but you get the idea. If you can tell me exactly which powder he was using i can give you the conversion, but you see my point? Volume measurement alone most likely didn't cause what is inferred............. Maybe he volume measured a double or triple load? ?? Glad he wasn't hurt worse, whatever the cause! KerryB
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Post by KerryB on Feb 10, 2010 22:17:42 GMT -5
You know..........after studying the photo of this rifle and thinking about photos of other rifles and shotguns that i have seen blown up, i think i will start holding my forearm back under the receiver! I like my fingers just the way they are and want to keep them that way!
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Post by killitgrillit on Feb 10, 2010 23:34:08 GMT -5
That's gonna leave a mark.
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Post by mike.dawson on Feb 11, 2010 6:35:59 GMT -5
This was the Canadian blow up that has been discussed on the sub boards, and one of the examples that TB has used to say the Savage is not safe.
Mike
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Post by KerryB on Feb 11, 2010 8:16:22 GMT -5
I'll leave this here for a little while so other might see it, and then move it over to the Savage safety forum...........if one of the other moderators doesn't beat me to it!
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Post by bigmoose on Feb 11, 2010 9:28:42 GMT -5
Is that an after market barrel........no sights?
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Post by lwh723 on Feb 11, 2010 9:43:04 GMT -5
Is that an after market barrel........no sights? I doubt it. Surely you know Savage sells them without sights.
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Post by bigmoose on Feb 11, 2010 9:45:17 GMT -5
One more thought, Savage [ if its a savage barrel] test fires their [not everyone] barrels with over loads, so a few grains over should not blow a barrel. It may just be a case of someone making a mistake, obstruction in the barrel, double load and looking to place the blame elsewere. After firing over 6000 shoots in my two Savage rifles, my only concerns are that this old man, may make a error, not the rifle.
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Post by artjr338wm on Feb 11, 2010 11:25:09 GMT -5
This is just my opinion, but when ever something like this happens WITH A FIREARM, I am much more likely to suspect some form of human error VS a defect in the firearm in question as to the cause of the catastrophic failure.
In my 30+ years of being around firearms when they were being fired while hunting or target shooting, I have personally witnessed a quite a few screw ups including three catastrophic failures where the barrels ruptured, and even witnessed a few hand guns come apart while being fired.
Without exception every last one was caused by a error on the part of the person shooting the firearm.
The only way anyone can say with any level of certainty what caused the above barrel rupture and any other catastrophic failure, is to have been the actual person who loaded it and fired it when it failed. And even the person in question might not be able to or EVEN BE WILLING to say what the cause was or admit fault, because after all no sane person is going to discharge a rifle if they know it is likely to explode in their hands.
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Post by chuck41 on Feb 11, 2010 13:13:50 GMT -5
KerryB, I would suspect that in this instance the guy used a BLACK POWDER MEASURE to measure the powder. To do so, depending on whether he was throwing a 90gr or a 150gr load of black powder he could get enough to do some major damage to any gun. From the appearance this would have had to be either a huge overcharge, or an incorrect powder type or both. If the guy was used to shooting a black powder weapon and knowing the Savage was supposed to shoot much faster he may have used a 150gr BP measure. That would likely do it with the standard book powders. On the other hand if he was used to loading pistol cartridges he might have used what he had. I would suspect that 47 or so grains of Red Dot or Bullseye might just do the same thing. Or as Forrest Gump's Mama said, "Stupid is as stupid does."
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Post by KerryB on Feb 11, 2010 19:54:40 GMT -5
Chuck, davidfoor said "The guy supposedly measured his smokeless powder like you would BP or BP subs". That tells me that he used a "black powder measure" to measure his smokeless powder by the volume method, and not necessarily that he dumped 100 or 150 grains down the barrel. Remember he said supposedly, so we assume this is all just supposition. What i did when measuring my "examples" is take one of my many black powder measures and measure out certain recommended amounts of smokeless powder using the volume method and then checking the actual grain weight of those loads. If this guy was shooting recommended loads, but simply measured them by using a black powder measure, then he would have actually underloaded his rifle which was my point. No matter what caused it........it was a very destructive error. I love that Forrest Gump saying! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2010 22:39:37 GMT -5
This is how it worked out according to TB's webpage...
On October 24th, 2009, I went to Broad Valley, Manitoba where I had purchased a hunting cabin with a couple of friends, to do some work on the cabin. And we thought we would get in a hunt that afternoon and the next morning. I had not sighted my muzzleloader this year, so went to a pit south of town to do so. I loaded the gun with 42.5 grains of IMR 4759 powder, using a 250 grain Barnes bullet. One of my buddies suggested I shoot over the hood of his truck, but I did not have ear protection, so decided to shoot off of a canvas duffle bag full of clothes. First shot was my last shot - as there was a large explosion...with my hand under the barrel on the forestock. The barrel and forestock blew apart (per pictures), and some part of the gun blew off and dented the door of the truck.
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Post by pposey on Feb 12, 2010 8:26:58 GMT -5
"This is how it worked out according to [glow=red,2,300]TB's webpage[/glow]..." Well heck right theres your problem I used lee dippers for a couple of years with my ml2 before I started reloading and bought a scale, never had any problems and it shot pretty darn good as well,, ahhh those easy simple and cheap years,,,,,,, That was not caused by a factory or even saboted load and a resonable amount of powder measured by "dipping" now if some nut decided that he could shoot 150 grains of BP in his savage and then decided that therefor he could also shoot 150 grains of 4759 then thats his problem,,,,,, I bet the guy had already loaded the gun , then double loaded and Boooom,,,,, wonder if he had left that sucker loaded from the year before?
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Post by blackhawk7204 on Feb 12, 2010 8:37:30 GMT -5
I do not believe that could be caused by any book powder charge unless you put a much heavier than recommended projectile ahead of it. Like say 2 or 3 bullets! More likely was a huge overdose of powder and or the wrong powder type. But like said earlier, only the guy that loaded it would know the real cause.
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Post by randywakeman on Feb 12, 2010 14:58:31 GMT -5
The guy supposedly measured his smokeless powder like you would BP or BP subs, Ouch. Where does this "supposedly" come from? Anywhere at all in particular? randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm covers it as best as I am able.
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Post by KerryB on Feb 12, 2010 20:08:50 GMT -5
The guy supposedly measured his smokeless powder like you would BP or BP subs, Ouch. Where does this "supposedly" come from? Anywhere at all in particular? randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm covers it as best as I am able. Why don't you tell us what you really think!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D Interesting article........had some information that i hadn't seen before which sort of puts everything in a little better perspective. I've always wanted to do my own destructive testing with a Savage 10MLII (remotely of course) and film it via a protected video camera. I'll bet it would get a lot of views here! I seem to remember reading many years ago about some destructive testing done early in the Savage development stages. I think i recall that they loaded one powder load and two bullets, then two powder loads and two bullets, then two powder loads and three bullets before the stock split and the recoil lug bent. However IIRC, the barrel never ruptured. Wish i could still find that article as it was very revealing about the proven strength of the Savage design and construction. Do you remember what i am describing Randy? Anyhow, i don't think anyone can give a convincing argument against the safety of the Savage design.......although some like to give it a try! ;D KerryB
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Post by edge on Feb 12, 2010 22:07:35 GMT -5
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Post by KerryB on Feb 12, 2010 22:49:55 GMT -5
I do recall reading that thread several times over the years, but the one i was talking about was an actual destructive test that escalated till the rifle was damaged beyond further testing. As i recall, it was either a factory test or something that Mr. Bridges or the Balls were a part of and then wrote about. I might have printed it out a few years ago for safe keeping and will have to search my archives to see if i can find it.........
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Post by chuck41 on Feb 15, 2010 11:19:07 GMT -5
Chuck, davidfoor said "The guy supposedly measured his smokeless powder like you would BP or BP subs". That tells me that he used a "black powder measure" to measure his smokeless powder by the volume method, and not necessarily that he dumped 100 or 150 grains down the barrel. Remember he said supposedly, so we assume this is all just supposition. What i did when measuring my "examples" is take one of my many black powder measures and measure out certain recommended amounts of smokeless powder using the volume method and then checking the actual grain weight of those loads. If this guy was shooting recommended loads, but simply measured them by using a black powder measure, then he would have actually underloaded his rifle which was my point. No matter what caused it........it was a very destructive error. I love that Forrest Gump saying! ;D My comment was based on the fact that we have all shot loads equal to what this guy claimed. Not one of us has had a problem at all. Based on experiences of thousands of us that was certainly no 42.5gr load with an XTP 250. Two loads with two bullets is a possibility that comes to mind. That has bulged barrels for several of us, but whatever the load, it was something very extreme, not just a few grains difference. That's how I bulged mine and I suspect it or some other similar dumb stunt is how that guy broke his. See Randy's excellent article on this subject: randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htmAnd Yep, Forest Gump's mama was one wise old gal. Which reminds me of another of her quotes that applies to doing really dumb stunts with a muzzleloader. "Its just like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get."
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Post by ozark on Feb 15, 2010 21:47:48 GMT -5
Obviously there was a blow up. Equally obvious is that Toby Bridges is eager to get revenge and will try to shed a bad light on Savage MLs when he can. This is represented to have happened using a book load. I simply do not believe it and I am sure the injured person doesn't know what was in that rifle when he shot it. By being careful and avoiding mistakes in loading you can shoot this rifle without fear.
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Post by swampmen on Apr 23, 2010 18:02:17 GMT -5
Can I ask a question on these loads 42.5 gr accra then on other parts of this sight I see 70 plus gr of other powders used what up here .I don't have a savage yet in muzzleloader but thinking hard on this thanks
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 24, 2010 21:00:29 GMT -5
Just as with reloading centerfire cartridges if you use a slower powder you have to use more. you can use 42gr of say N110 or 4759. Go to a slower powder say N120 or 4198 and you have to bump up to 58-60gr. Starting out, I would recommend sticking with the book loads till you get some experience.
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