Shooter self evaluation

[ozark]

Using a solid bench, a good Lead sled or simular fixture and a perfectly accurate rifle (I know there are none) with a good trigger, How accurate do you think you are?

[ozark]

I used to be a more accurate shooter than my selection of 1.25 but age has taken a bit of vision, a bit of nerves, and considerable breath. I can prove my vote on the range using my .243. I started this poll so that questions can be started with: "I am a 1.50 MOA shooter, What can I expect from XXX rifle out of the box? Don't lie, the boggerman will get you.

[ET]

Ozark

Fair question and will do less than MOA 85-90% of the time. But of course there are days when I just make them MOA groups. So I voted MOA groups to cover those not so good days.
Not to sound too arrogant it’s not that I think how accurate I am but from proven range results know my potential with my rifles on a fairly decent calm day at the range.

Ed

[rjhans53]

1.75 is what I put down. Now that is at the range in the woods probably still under 2 1/2. I rest my elbows, my left wrist is on a shooting block, left wrist is on the forestock (I pivot my wrist for elevation) and my right hand is on the grip of the rifle. I feel I can duplicate some form of this position in the woods from any of the stands that I hunt.

[mountainam]

Within the parameters set forth by Ozark, I voted Sub MOA. Under my most common field conditions I'd say MOA for varmints and 1.5 MOA for whitetails.

[mike3132]

I shoot a lot and can usually shoot what the gun is capable of. Mike

[ozark]

Not many voting, I wonder if many are not aware of their skills. So far, the shooters who have responded are much better than the average shooter I have seen at my range.

[whyohe]

I put sub MOA. I usually can do that with my rem 30-06 700 BDL on sand bags. now i do have my bad day and will shoot MOA to 1.25" groups.

as to the not voting? may be most dont get that up tight. i started to hunt with a guy and he was happy with a pie plate. I showed him some techniques and brought him to MOA and he didnt miss many deer after that!

[billc]

Some days I shoot one hole groups. Some days I can't hit the ground. Some days I shoot to make noise. Some days I shoot to have empty brass to reload. It's hard to average the different days and give a number. Then there is the distance question I shoot tighter (smaller MOA) at 200 yards than I do at 100 yards -- probably because I can't see the wobble . Shooting is therapy, but if I have to put a number on all days, conditions, distances, and scoped weapons -- well give me a 1.5

[deadeye]

i seem to find my groups in the .370 area often sometimes .2 or better almost never above .6 with proven accurate barrels,large or small bore//from the 50bmg to the 220swift.. i was going to start a thread like this but ozark beat me to it///great thread!

[whelenman]

Nov 23, 2009 15:07:15 GMT -5 ozark said:

Not many voting, I wonder if many are not aware of their skills. So far, the shooters who have responded are much better than the average shooter I have seen at my range.

Yeah, you run into all kinds on the range. I recently ran into a guy who thought he was shooting 100 yards while on the 50 yard range and asked me if the 100 yard berm was 200 yards. His groups were probably pretty good when he told folks about them. There's probably not many of those kinds of guys who would ever read this site let along make a post. I would call most people who are on here enthusiasts and not just casual occasional shooters.

[DHinMN]

Ozark, You are giving us a solid bench, a very good rest, an accurate rifle, a good trigger, and I presume a very good scope plus a good target. How can you miss with perfect conditions. Maybe it's a windy day. How about the target. Some times I see on the posted picture of groups, some people draw dots with a magic marker and shoot at that. I like 4 black squares so that the cross hairs intersect the spaces inbetween the squares. This gives me a good sight picture that IMO is better than trying to cut a round circles in quarters with the cross hairs. What do other people like. For peep sights I like something else. DH

[ozark]

DHinMN, My idea is to help shooters judge their ability under ideal conditions. Surely if they are going to work up a load they will create ideal conditions because except for weather they can control everything. This group will not accept second best if they can help it. Only when we know our own skills and limitations can we evaluate the accuracy of a rifle or load. I think this group of shooters are dedicated and will do whats needed to create ideal setups. The survey indicates that most are good marksman and I hope that the hunting group will use their imagination to get practice under conditions simular to hunting.
Mike 3132 mentioned that he could usually shoot as accurate as the rifle was capable of (words to that effect). That is exceptional self evaluation. What I see as important in this game is the shooters ability to judge the rifles accuracy by knowing their own likitations. I have the skill to see the sight alignment at the instant of ignition and from this I can call my shots. If I call it a an inch out at 2:00 O:clock and that is where the bullet impacts I can pat the rifle and know it did its job. But If I call it one place and it went somewhere else I am working with a knowledge that the rifle or load is at fault. I am now going to make a statement that may be hard for some to swallow. If you can call your shots well you are a skilled marksman. If you can't see that last spot the crosshair was on when ignition occured then you are short on the desired skills. Have a paper with the image of your target on the bench. Shoot, Mark your call with an X then look at the target and mark the hit with a "O". When your xs and os begins dating and get married then you can honestly tell the world that you are a skilled marksman. We used to have books with these in them for use on the range. Are they still available? If so good investment for the dedicated shooter/hunter. I am probably getting boring to all except those with a keen interest in learning. Sorry.

[Rifleman]

Good discussion Ozark. I find that I can still shoot 1/2 moa or better for the first 5 shots of the day if all is well. After that I am about a 1 moa shooter. Seems the eyes like to play tricks on me as I get older. I rarely find a rifle that can shoot to my call. I had 2 that did, both custom 308s, one was my USMC M14/m!A national match and the other was my M40A1. Both are in the hands of younger Marines now who get more enjoyment from them then I did in the last few years. Back on subject though. I shoot alot of rifles for folks and most factory rifles will not shoot inside my call, most are a little loose. But on occasion I find one that does. PK's 22-250 Savage will shoot under 1/2 MOA and I can count on that rifle to shoot to my call everytime until my eyes get tired. But I get to shoot that rifle but rarely as he lives so far away. Recoil has alot to do with it too. 30 cals and under I find are no problem at all, but getting much bigger I can say that I am not a consistent sub moa shooter. Probably with really hard kickers 1 to 1.5 moa is a more honest eval. I only shot one rifle that I felt like I could not hold better then 1.5 moa, it was a huge custom dbl barrel side by side in some weird behemoth elephant cartridge I cannot remember exactly what right now. That gun kicked me like a borrowed mule and 2 shots later I said forget it.
Really though I don't worry much about my bench shooting. I do still work on my offhand shooting though every chance I get. That skill perishes quickly and I find that if my offhand shooting is up to practice I can get by with a lot more shenagins when it comes to postion shooting with less then an ideal position in the field. Being able to bust that shot when I need it to makes up for alot. Not often does one get to sling up in the prone or sitting when deer hunting.

[northny]

I debated myself on this before voting for moa. I have two heavy barrel varmit guns that will shoot sub moa, but I will not always shoot them sub moa, so voted moa which I can always do that with them. My older son is only an ocassional shooter yet seems to always shoot sub moa at 200 yard with them.

I have used my sub moa guns to sort out problems with friends guns. I have them shoot my rifles, and if my sub moa gun suddenly shoots 4 inches for them, we deal with their shooting problem before trying to "fix" their gun. Usually I get the to shoot a good scoped .22 of mine that will shoot small tears at 50 yards (too often they have picked up a flinch, which we cure with .22 rf) and then move back to center fire at 100 yards

I am still surprised at how often if you show someone that a given gun can shoot small groups, they will (or can?) then focus on their shooting and suddenly they start shooting small groups too. Then you shoot a reasonable small group with their gun, and suddenly they can do it too. I have "fixed" several guns this way.

[ozark]

northny, your post exposes the principal reason for this thread. When a shooter becomes convinced and confident that they can shoot MOA or better then they are equipped to evaluate a rifle for accuracy. You can't work up a good load before you learn to shoot well.
Also, if the shooter is capable of shooting only a MOA when they get the load worked up to print MOA that is as good as they can get it. Put another way, a MOA shooter cannot do better with a rifle that is capable of shooting cloverleaf groups all day.
Applied to me, I know that I am capable of only shooting groups measuring 1.25. Any time a rifle gives me a group of 1.25 MOA. I am satisfied that the rifle is as accurate as I can shoot consistently.

[dxt20]

I'm not trying to brag but i am a 9 time state champion in rifle... small bore though... but cut me some slack I'm 16. with my 204 and my best hand loads i can get a 0.35 inch group with a 5 shot group at 100 yards. but thats only with a good rest

[ozark]

dxt20, that is an impressive string of wins. Were you speaking strictly of small bore? With that impressive record you could probably give us all some pointers on accuracy. I would love to hear you routine and techniques. You mention handloading what calibers?

[ozark]

I must have said something wrong. Anyway, Rifleman it is always good to read youe replies. Remember slinging up and using that glove on the forward hand in the prone, sitting and keeling? I at least got to coach some of the best. Coaching them informed me that I was not in thier league.

[Rifleman]

Hey Ben would you believe that the one item I kept from my days shooting for the Corp's was my shooting glove? I still have that old thing, it is stiff as a board from all the stickum spray, but I bet if I tried it, I could still use it. It might come in handy if I wanted to test my shorty MLII with peeps with a sling some day.
That reply up above from the small bore shooter was pretty interesting. Small bore shooters really have position shooting down to a science. But if they want to have some real fun they should try high power. Real high power with 30 cals, not this 5.56 high power they shoot now adays. The 30 cals have enough recoil to quickly break down a position that is not correct. Also wind doping is taken to a whole new level. IMO rifles are made for war and hunting. War requires shooters to take shots far in excess of what a hunter would consider ethical. Sling up a 30 cal and learn to shoot it old school way and formidable is what you become. I know even the Army hired some old shooters to come to Benning to teach the young bucks how to shoot M14's for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Last I heard one of my old USMC coaches who retired from the Corps was down there padding his retirement teaching the 14 to young soldiers.

[artjr338wm]

northny makes a excellent point I have personally subscribed to for years. Most firearm owners do not poses the proper shooting skills to ever be able to shoot their rifles as well a the rifle itself is capable of.

I truly love to shoot and have had a love of all things firearm as long as I can remember. I distinctly remember at age 10, being completely disappointed in my lack of accuracy when I shot my first rifle, a Sheridan Silver Streak .20cal pellet gun. My quest for excellence in marksmanship lead me on a loooong road to my final success.

As no one I knew while growing up shared my desirer to be as good a shot as I was capable of, I was forced to teach my self what I needed to know to shoot a rifle as well as I could from both the bench as well as under actual hunting conditions.

What shooting form I used I learned (like most in my position I imagine) was from a combination of what I read in books I bought that were dedicated specifically to how to shoot a rifle well, trial and error, and from talking to other rifleman who I saw shot extremely well. Along they way I also learned this one inescapable truism: Shooting a rifle well is over 90% mental. If you know you can shoot well you will.

I have literally lost count of the times I have been at my favorite range and watched some person shooting a quite expansive rifle, only to be greatly disappointed in the rifles apparent lack of accuracy. I will give one case in point.

I was at the range some years back shooting my 10ML-II and my 338wm when a man who I see there quite often sits down two stalls from me. He proceeds to uncased one of H&Ks newest rifles in .223. I do not recall the model, but it was the one that had a 100% synthetic one piece stock and forearm. It was topped with a Night force scope no less.

Try as he might he could not get on paper at 100yrds. After a bit of talking asked me to see if i could shoot it to check if there was anything wrong with the scope. The first thing I did was cover the 4x8' sheet of plywood that is used as the target holder with the sheet of tyvex house wrap I always carry with me for this situation. All of the previous bullet holes in it are either taped over or circled using a marker.

Using the Tyvex I was quickly able to get him on paper and after a few more scope adjustments shot some quite good groups, especially considering I was not at all familiar with this rifles trigger or how it felt to me while shooting. This came as quite a surprise to the rifles owner as he admitted he was ready to blame his IIRC, $1800++ Night force scope for his shooting problems.

I guess some people still believe that by spending big $$$$ on a rifle and scope (trust me on this, the same applies for bows too) it will some how magically transform a average or below average shooter into the marksman they wish to be.

[ozark]

First of all, regulars on this board are not the average run of shooters. artjr. you point out some good facts about shooters. Certainly a lot of shooting well is mental. Especially when you consider knowledge of fundamentals and techniques as mental. But lets face another aspect to the game. We don't all have the same potential to become great shooters. We have anywhere from great to poor vision, some have steady nerves and some don''t. Some people have fears of firearms and can't relax. I have had to cut from teams individuals who wanted to be team members so bad they cried when given the bad news. Sure they tried very hard but desire doesn't provide us with the God given talent to become a great shooter.
I think I was a great coach, a good teacher and a much better than average shooter. But I was up against the cream of the crop and it is unbelievable how good some were. In the big matches year after year the same names appeared on the leader boards. It wasn't because they knew more, tried harder or had more desire. It was because their potential was higher in the beginning and they developed their potential. You can teach yourself to shoot pretty good. I was darn good in most crowds but shoulder to shoulder with the worlds best I was humiliiated. I am not ashamed. I taught a lot of shooting fundamentals and shot many demos for large groups. I hope that maybe I saved a few lives of students who went into combat zones. I do have pride but believe me I was never a threat to become the top gun of the services or the Nationals at Camp Perry. I was like the golfers that always makes the cuts but watch others take the major championship. I think I was the luckiest marksmanship shooter that existed for eleven years. Gravy train all the way. Yes, I know this sounds like self permotion. It isn't. I have received far more credit than I feel I deserve. Being accepted as an equal on this forum is to me like making the team. May the rest of your life be as mine has been. Surper wonderful. Ozark

[ET]

Artjr338wm

You nicely summed up a lot here. Yes I have also seen shooters at a range with expensive equipment thinking it will produce the accuracy for them. Then there are the shooters that heat their barrels up so hot you couldn’t put your hand on without burning it. Of course when you try to talk and help some of these shooters you get an ugly response most times. Their own ignorance and arrogance are their downfall.

While hunting moose one time I came across another hunter carrying a beautiful 300 Magnum and happened to ask why the firepower? Said he shot a moose one time with 5-shots using a 30-06 and it just walked away on him. He felt with the 300 Magnum was the answer to knock any moose down. Knowing his mindset and attitude during our brief conversation I just said “Good Luck” and walked away.

Now one last comment I would like to add is that the worst rifle I ever owned was a semi auto in my early years. It never forced me to consider that my first shot should be a good one that counts because I had quick back-up shots. I don’t own any semi-autos to this day and never will again.


Ed

[ozark]

I am willing to help anyone with the right attitude improve their shooting. But when a person already thinks they know it all I am not interested. Most everyone locally knows my experience and seek my help. It is easier to be the largest tree bordering a tiny lake than being so when the lake is like Lake Michigan.

[artjr338wm]

Ozark thanks for pointing out what I forgot to mention in the fact that shooting is a sport and like all sports there simply is no way no matter how hard you practice or how great your will to win is, for a marksman to become a truly great shooter unless they do not have a unusually high amount of God given talent to start with.

Shooters like USMC Sniping legend , and Distinguished marksman Carlos Norman Hathcock were simply borne with the talents necessary that made them destined to be among the worlds top marksmen. It didn't hurt that Gunnery Sgt. Hathcock literally lived, ate, and breathed marksman ship at extreme distances, but all that did was allow his almost super human marksmanship abilities to be realized to their maximum potential as applied to sniping while he served in Viet Nam as a USMC Scout/Sniper.

And contrary to popular beliefs, Gunnery Sgt. Hathcock has the longest confirmed kill with any sniping shooting system not (with all respect due to him) the Canadian Sniper who made a still nearly unbelievable shot at around 2400+yrds. Sgt Hathcock routinely made shots on enemy solders in Viet Nam at 2500 yards. And not with the aid of a hand made semi-auto Barret .50 cal sniper rifle with superb optics, shooting rounds of individually hand loaded match grade ammo, no Sgt. Hathcock (for those who don't know this) used a standard issue plane Jane Browning M2 .50 caliber heavy machine gun modified to have his old stand buy Urntal(I KNOW I spelled that wrong) scope mounted on it shooting standard issue, mass produced, .50 cal ball ammo no less, and still hit with great regularity at 2500yrds, actually far more often than not.

Now thats marksman ship.

[ozark]

I have all the respect due to Gunnery Sergeant Hathcock and full appreciation for what he did. But the book one shot one kill had some false information that turned me off. I blame the writers and not the Man. Example: The book claimed that Hathcock honed his shooting skills by killing Jack Rabbits as a youngster near Little Rock, Ar. Since there has never been any Jack Rabbits outside a zoo in Arkansas I took that with a grain of salt. Naturally, if one part of a book is fabricated then chances are good that other parts would be too. If one claim is false, others are suspect. I know that Hathcock never claimed to have killed Jack Rabbits near Little Rock.

[cfvickers]

I am sub MOA and I know I am, under perfect conditions. As a matter of fact I will say that my limit is .46 inches. I have three guns that are VERY good shooters, and with one I have shot a couple of 1 single entry point hole group, but I cannot do it consistently. I can consistently shoot .46 inch groups with my 6.5-284, .300 win mag, and my 25/06. Ozark, Half the rednecks down here in this part of AR really do think that we are shooting jack rabbits when we kill big rabbits, I am 38 miles from LR so it could be true, he just didn't know any better.

[ozark]

I always thought the hillbillies of northern Arkansas were least aware of what existed elsewhere. Even half the females up here knew we didn't have any Jack Rabbits around to shoot. To say Carlos didn't know the difference by the time the book was wrote is just not possible. He couldn't have concentrated so hard on shooting that he didn't learn anything else. After all, he was a Sergeant. LOL

[cfvickers]

he wasn't just a sergent, he was a GUNNY!!! But even still, half the people round here refer to any big rabbit as a jack rabbit, many of those know the difference but still refer to it as such. And it very well could have just been an outright fallacy.