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Post by broomebuck on Apr 7, 2009 15:30:29 GMT -5
if you live in a state where there is antleer restriction how do you like it here in ny i would like to see it one day
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Post by petev on Apr 7, 2009 17:30:49 GMT -5
broomebuck, the latest biggame email from DEC says that they are probably going to have the restriction in area 4O, just one unit over from you probably. Hunters in Ulster county seem to like the restriction, and DEC claims that it only lowers the buck take for a year or two, and then it goes back to what it was, but with better racks.
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Post by pfw4666 on Apr 7, 2009 19:40:12 GMT -5
In Illinois, we dont have antler restrictions, we are however limited to harvesting 2 antlered deer per year. That is 2 deer total for bow, muzzleloader and shotgun seasons.
It does make you think when a basket rack walks under your treestand!!!
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Post by davewolf on Apr 9, 2009 21:00:56 GMT -5
No doubt Pa has better bucks with antler restrictions. The area I hunt most often is 4-per one side, must be at least 1-inch although most areas of the state allow three per side, or three on one-side. Basically in my area a 7-point is legal, as long as one rack has 4-points, or a 4-point is legal if one side is missing and the other has 4-points. The carrot as I call it was offered in lieu of herd reduction statewide, so we have less deer, but some nicer bucks. Today a 8-point is just an 8-point, unless it has mass, and long points. The problems have been; trying to see brow-tines in the 8-point area. And in the area I hunt we have more smaller bucks that don't seem to get around to being 8-Pt's or better. I assume the gene pool had a lot to do with it--but we do have a lot of let'em walk older deer, that will most likely die of old age. We have a 4-point walking around with a 20-plus inch spread! Over-all and after all of that, I do like antler restrictions. Have a great day! Dave
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Post by broomebuck on Apr 10, 2009 6:51:56 GMT -5
i think it would be good here in my part of ny 63% of deer killed in ny are 1 1/2 years of age
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Post by whyohe on Apr 10, 2009 7:39:12 GMT -5
i too like the antler restriction. it makes people look better at what they are shooting(for the most part). if it is far off and is leagal but the person isnt sure it give more people a chance IMO. i dont get to hunt first day and i have seen more bucks on the days i can hunt. i've been seeing better and more bucks.
in PA youth, senior, and active military people can shoot a buck under old regs which was a antler 3" or longer. so the inferior can be taken by one of these.
i hunt & live in w. PA in Butler Co. and have the 4 point or better to one side. i find that a bit backwards cause they say that the heard really needs thined in this area, but in the moutains the restriction is 3 point or better to one side. id think it would be the other way? can some one throw an idea as to why it might be this way out there.
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Post by davewolf on Apr 11, 2009 20:13:05 GMT -5
Yes, while I agree with you, the PGC insists that better habitat exists in your area of the state and that many bucks grow antlers of 8-pts or better at 1 1/2 y.o. then they do in the mountain areas were mast crops comprise the majority of the food. I didn't say I agree with them, just telling you what they said. Have a great day! Dave
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Post by edge on Apr 23, 2009 14:22:25 GMT -5
Personally I don't like point restrictions as a stand alone.
IMO, it protects inferior genes. On reasonable forage you should see a majority of 8 point (4x4) bucks at 1 1/2 years.
IMO, obviously deformed, and whitetails without brow tines should be removed from the herd. Spikes longer than 5 inches in an area of good forage should be gone too........assuming that big racks are the goal. If age is your only goal then point restrictions will help.
IMO, excess does should be removed from the herd prior to the rut too.
edge.
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Post by whyohe on Apr 23, 2009 14:52:53 GMT -5
IMO, excess does should be removed from the herd prior to the rut too. edge. i agree 100% with you edge, that is why i like our early ML season. it is doe only and starts about the 3 week in Oct, just prior to the rut here.
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Post by davewolf on Apr 23, 2009 19:27:34 GMT -5
I tend to agree with both of you. As whyoe wrote, we do have an early inline season that does help remove does before the rut, and of course an archery season that allows bucks or does. The genetic problem, isn't easily solved on a statewide basis, but I too would like to see some inferior bucks taken.
But, I fear the only way to do that is to allow landowners control over their own herds, which in turn means more posted land. However, we have both forested and farmland in Pa, and the better buck usually come from farmlands. Deer dependent on mast crops have a much more difficult time becoming an 8-pt at 1 1/2.
That said, we know that it takes both; a good food source and a good gene pool. We now in most areas have less deer and better antlers--but that's a generalization, as is deer management by state agencies. Have a great day! Dave
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Post by ozark on Apr 23, 2009 20:06:50 GMT -5
Arkansas has had the three point rule (One side must have at least three points) and it has resulted in harvesting and seeing deer with larger antlers. I think that it should be legal to take deer with obviously deformed antlers. We see many six point racks that would be nice if they had brow tines. If I see deer that are deformed I usually just eliminate them on our property. Three or four years ago I killed one that had one normal front leg while the other was just a curled affair with a hoof that didn't extend below the body. It had spikes about six inches long. Our deer are small compared to what is seen in Il, Iowa and Kansas. Regardless of food they would still be much smaller. Our largest bucks only get around the 200 Lb. range.
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Post by broomebuck on Apr 24, 2009 6:28:51 GMT -5
edge i agree with you to a point but most deer do not show their true potential until three years old most 2 1/2 year olds only show 35 to 40% of what they are going to be. in my part of ny i see12 doe for every one buck. around here you only see a buck that is 2 1/2 years old and older is if the chase fase is going on
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Post by edge on Apr 24, 2009 7:27:18 GMT -5
broomebuck, I agree that a buck does not show its true potential until later, but it does give us plenty of hints We do know fairly confidently that a spike buck and an 8 point buck in the same area and both 1 1/2 years old have had about the same opportunities to get big and grow antlers. We are also fairly confident that given the same forage the main difference will be genetics, and that the spike will most likely never have the potential of the 8 point. So IMO, given that you WILL kill one of these animals I would suggest that for the future of the herd that the spike be removed. On the other hand, if you decide to not shoot either and take a doe instead then I applaud you.... In my perfect world, 1) I would shoot all excess does prior to the rut, with a heavy emphasis on older does; 2) Shoot all management bucks prior to the rut, Management bucks: any buck that do not reach the median for the area at age 1 1/2 with a goal of 8 points, and any obviously deformed deer. 3) No trophy bucks shot prior to the rut. edge.
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Post by broomebuck on Apr 24, 2009 7:58:41 GMT -5
most of the spike and small four points i see around here are four to six weeks younger than the small 1 1/2 year old eight points.I agree with you edge about shooting spikes where the population is 25 to 35 deer per square mile not here in ny where its 5-12. check out the study they did with spike buck in the castskill ny the spike in his fourth or fith year scored 167
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Post by edge on Apr 24, 2009 8:27:42 GMT -5
I am not saying that a spike can't grow up big, only that in a side by side test of two bucks born at the same time on the same feed the 8 point will end up with a better rack most of the time. Late born deer obviously may have less developed racks, but rarely is it a spike if it is longer than about 4-5 inches. Normally the points are just very small. Late born fawns are generally due to the over harvesting of bucks...as it sounds like the problem in your area. IMO, a year or two of NO Trophy bucks is what you need! Zero pressure on the racked bucks and no late season doe hunting would bring your quality up quickly....something that the hunters would most certainly oppose The Kerr Wildlife Study is a good read on Whitetail Genetics. edge. www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/hunt/wma/wildlife_management/kerr_wma/research/PS SPIKE STUDY: www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_bk_w7000_0155.pdf
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 24, 2009 8:46:53 GMT -5
This would never work in a state that allows hounds to chase the deer from their beds. Many if not most shots are taken at running deer, sometimes at full gallop. There would be many mistakes made if antler restrictions were imposed.
Doug
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Post by broomebuck on Apr 24, 2009 9:33:54 GMT -5
thanks for the link s edge i was not trying to point fingers some time im not real clear, late born fawns are a problem in most of ny imo
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Post by edge on Apr 24, 2009 9:47:54 GMT -5
IMO, they are a symptom of over harvesting bucks and are found in MOST places open to public hunting.
edge.
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Post by ozark on Apr 24, 2009 20:24:28 GMT -5
The first year and half of a bucks life may be very different and have a great bearing on how the antlers appear. Does with triplets will not have the milk available to create a perfect start for the fawns. Also, a doe raising its first fawn may not be a good mother and actually may be a weak milk producer. Especially if her food source isn't good. A fawn may be deprived the first year but recover to become a wall hanger the second year. Bucks have a big effect in providing the genes but so does the does. A doe with inferior genes will surely pass that along to her offspring. If her daddy was a three year old spike chances are that her fawn out of a trophy buck will be less endowed than its father. Harvesting inferior does makes as much sense to me as doing the same to inferior bucks. Game farms can do logical selective breeding but out in the wild change is likely to be gradual and may go either way. Just my opinion and I have been wrong many times. Ozark
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Post by sincyrman on Apr 24, 2009 20:27:50 GMT -5
I hunt in Vt and they instituted an antler restriction a few years back for all weapons. The deer must have two tines on one side. You really have to know what you are shooting at. My fist buck under this program was a three pointer. I was hunting over a field, with a scoped rifle so it wasn't a problem. There is no point in staying in your treestand too late in the evening, since it would be hard to determine between a doe and a spike in low light. It can be hard to see that one inch tine that makes the deer legal. Basically, I'm out of my tree earlier with this new rule.
By the way, during youth weekend, youngsters can shoot anything. It doesn't seem like you are teaching them much this way.
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Post by Dave W on Apr 24, 2009 22:00:31 GMT -5
I don't care for antler restrictions in general, I also believe it protects inferior bucks, yes it will improve the age class of the buck herd but it is not a plan without built in problems.IMO
I have read studies and saw racks from penned deer that were spikes as yearlings that grew into 160 class bucks and this was on a good diet for rack potential. These deer were born late and that was the general consensus for their being spikes more so than inferior genetics, but IF I had to eliminate a 1 1/2 year old 8pt. or a 1 1/2 year old spike I would cull the spike.
I also tend to agree with nutrition being probably the most important factor for antler development, but if they don't reach a mature age all the nutrition and genetic potential in the world is meaningless.
Most of what I have read leans toward the doe controlling the genetic potential more than the breeder buck. The offspring will possibly have similar antler traits but the doe has more control over the overall potential from the genetic standpoint.
Personally I like the way OHIO does it, one buck limit and no centerfires, the rest is up to the hunter to decide what is a trophy and what is not.
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Post by edge on Apr 25, 2009 7:03:02 GMT -5
SNIP A doe with inferior genes will surely pass that along to her offspring. SNIP Exactly! That is one reason that Antler restrictions by themselves do not do much. Shooting the older Does early in the season is very important to improving antler quality. Lets say that you have 10 Does with bad genes and 1 great Buck. He breeds the 10 Does. If each Doe has a Buck and Doe fawn then you have 20 Does, but only 1/2 have some good genes and the other 10 have bad genes. You also have 10 Bucks of mixed genes. At 1 1/2 years you pick only the Bucks that show quality and harvest the rest. Bucks are culled by quality and Does by quantity and age...oldest first! ( you may cull 100% of the 1 1/2 year old Bucks if they don't meet your criteria! ) If you killed off the 10 old Does, then their inferior genes die with them, and each succeeding generation of Does, Does that are only bred to Bucks with good racks, will be passing on more of the genes from the superior Bucks. Obviously this is under ideal conditions and land open to public hunting could probably never adopt anything close to this. In reality "Point Restrictions" with nothing more does the absolute opposite of what a farmer/rancher would do to improve his herd! Can you imagine a farmer with a champion bull and prize dairy cows sending them to market and keeping the cows that don't produce as much milk and the smaller less blocky bull!!That is what Fish and Game is doing! edge.
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Post by whyohe on Apr 25, 2009 14:04:10 GMT -5
alot of good reasoning here. i have seen more bucks abd bigger bucks with the antler restriction. i dont think there is a fix all with this. in W.PA. there reallty isnt much farm land for deer to get good nutrition, but out east you do have more. there is limited culling in that there are lots of doe permits alotted to different WMU. i think this is what is helping too. the PA game commission is watching and listening to hunters and what they see and trying to adjust the doe permits.
here the youth and senior and active military can harvest a buck with 3 inch or taller spikes, so i think this is working to harvest the inferior bucks. with out having a guide to tell you what to harvest i think this is the best we can do for now.
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Post by davewolf on Apr 25, 2009 21:36:24 GMT -5
I would just like to add that years ago, I helped physically captured fawns by hand, got the crap beat out of me by a few, only to find out they were does and all does were released. The bucks ended-up at PSU's pens and they had spikes turn into huge racks with a few years. The idea was to feed some a high protein diet and let others feed more naturally. The deer on the better feed, grew large antlers.
The problem with what does to harvest and which ones not to harvest, is that we can't tell by looking at doe as we can looking at antlers bucks. And we may be harvesting the doe with the best genes.
Pa's deer management program is being copied nationally, but I still think we need to 'tweak' it more. Wildlife management units have been established across county lines, and it's more than tough to manage deer on public lands, especially when most are surrounded by private posted lands. Just a few added thoughts. Have a great day! Dave
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Post by 308ssph on Apr 25, 2009 23:31:14 GMT -5
For many years here in Alabama the season bag limit for deer was two per day per hunter (two does or one buck and one doe). Hunting with dogs was allowed in nearly all counties. Our archery season usually starts in mid October with the firearm season starting around Thanksgiving and ending at end of January. IMO the most liberal deer season in the USA. Antler restrictions and the number of bucks taken were imposed a couple of years ago. Our bag limit is still (or was during 2008-2009 season) two deer per day per hunter with antlered bucks limited to a total of three during all combined seasons (bow and arrow and spear, muzzle loader, and firearm (rifle/shotgun/handgun)). Any antlered buck taken must have bare antlers visible above the natural hairline and one of the three bucks must have 4 points 1 inch or longer on one side. We are also required to have an ANTLERED BUCK AND TURKEY HARVEST RECORD in our possession and filled out before field dressing or moving the carcass. Additionally, many counties no longer allow dog hunting. I THINK THESE RESTRICTIONS ARE A GREAT IDEA ... PROVIDED ALL HUNTERS COMPLY WITH THEM! Having said this, I have attached a photograph I took on November 8, 2008 (blue tint is infrared set during daylight) that IMO illustrates the result of the many years of the one buck/one doe per day limit and the use of dogs. [img src="[/img] i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww159/RMBeach/DSC_0055.jpg"] The fawn is very young as evidenced by the spots; the doe is very young as evidenced by her size. The real point here is that the photo was taken November 8th! Pretty late in the year even though we are pretty far South of Ohio , New York, Indiana, etc. I believe the doe and her fawn are examples of what happens to the deer herd when hunters harvest too many bucks, don't allow very many bucks to mature and don't harvest does. I have not seen any survey results or other information published by the DNR since the restrictions were imposed. If ALL hunters in Alabama will comply with the antler restrictions, I believe the quality of the bucks harvested will improve. Just my thoughts. 308ssph P.S. If you look hard enough there are some nice bucks to be found! This photo was taken on August 30, 2008.....I never got a photograph of these two during daylight and never saw either one of them during hunting season or heard of anyone harvesting one of them. Can't wait until next year!
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Post by 308ssph on Apr 25, 2009 23:33:35 GMT -5
I will learn how to post photos! 308ssph
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Post by edge on Apr 26, 2009 5:51:16 GMT -5
308ssph, I really like that 1 out of three restriction! It makes a lot of sense verses only taking those with good genes and leaving the inferior ones.
edge.
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Post by broomebuck on Apr 29, 2009 6:18:05 GMT -5
thanks for opening up my eyes edge its hard to see both side, i still think we need some kind of management .
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Post by Buckrub on May 12, 2009 20:05:38 GMT -5
Arkansas has a 3 point rule.........3 on one side, state wide. Been in existence since 1998. It works in many areas. It fails in many other areas. The debate is hot on both sides. Antler restrictions discuss 1/2 of the deer population at absolute maximum.....and most likely 1/10 in a real southern hunting environment. The other 1/2, or 9/10, is the does. No one mentions THEIR genetic makeup, but they contribute half of the DNA of a fawn. But since they have no antlers, no one discusses their impact on the herd, which is almost always MUCH higher than any buck, because there are almost always way more of them. In any real scientific study (not a deer-farm biased 'study'), here's what has been found on all spikes that are radio collared. When a fawn buck is radio collared, and he is a spike the next year, he has a 15% chance to be a spike the 3rd year. The fourth year, he has a 5% chance to be a spike. No fifth year bucks in any study that has been done have been spikes. I am convinced (and I fight our club members with this annually, so it's pervasive) that most hunters in the South WANT to believe that all spikes are inferior because it lets them pull the trigger more often. Sorry, but that's my conclusion after 45 years of direct observation of hunters. On the other side of the equation, I am less and less interested in the size of antlers each passing year. Oh, I love big bucks, and get excited to see one in the field. Or best I remember, I do! But last year I never saw a big buck, but I harvested two 8 points and a doe, and saw a ton of deer, and had one of my happiest years afield. I'd rather see lots of deer than one big buck. Most folks get that way their first few years hunting, and after that they want BIG bucks, trophies. But I'm going the other way, regressing I guess. I just want a healthy deer herd and a unique shot at a nice buck and a doe or two and some hickory and a smoker.
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Post by edge on May 13, 2009 7:57:12 GMT -5
SNIP I am convinced (and I fight our club members with this annually, so it's pervasive) that most hunters in the South WANT to believe that all spikes are inferior because it lets them pull the trigger more often. Sorry, but that's my conclusion after 45 years of direct observation of hunters. SNIP Buckrub, IMO you are missing 1/2 of the equation on spikes. While it is true that one years antlers don't tell a Bucks full potential, but it does tell you how he grew relative to his area competitors! I would like to see the actual study that you site to see what other information was included. For instance, I assume that they had a control group that had deer other than spikes. Did ANY of them ever produce a spiked rack? I doubt it. Of major importance is whether the spikes that became racked Bucks did they grow larger racks than the control racked Bucks...probably not. IMO, if you want to kill a non trophy buck, then take the spike over the small six or eight pointer since they will almost always end up a better trophy in future years. edge. PS Old Does should be your first choice for meat if you are trying to improve a herd through selective harvest.
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