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Post by 71yella on Dec 17, 2021 22:37:23 GMT -5
Anybody have a good smokeless load in a GM .50 stainless,1:28 twist. That does NOT use vv120 powder?
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Post by 71yella on Dec 26, 2021 15:47:19 GMT -5
Nobody?
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Post by hunter on Dec 26, 2021 17:33:07 GMT -5
40 to 42 gr of 4759, if you are lucky enough to have that powder worked well in the savage 50 cal.
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Post by 71yella on Dec 26, 2021 18:37:05 GMT -5
No, i have 5744,H4198, I4198, tried Re7, too dirty, after 2 shots i could barely get it loaded for 3rd shot.
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Post by billc on Dec 29, 2021 12:41:27 GMT -5
I can not find information that says Green Moutain barrels are rated for smokeless powder. Do you have a link that says otherwise? Bill
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ronc
Spike
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Post by ronc on Dec 30, 2021 0:11:18 GMT -5
I have had good results with these hunting loads in several different guns over the years in the past;
40-42 gr of VV110 and 250 SST w/MMP HPH 12 sabot
41-42 gr of IMR 4759 and 250 SST w/MMP HPH 12 sabot
65 gr of H4198 and 250 SST w/MMP HPH 12 sabot
The 250 Barnes TEZ also shot well too. I also do one dry patch between shots to keep down fouling. These were safe in my guns but might not be in yours, proceed with caution.
Concerning smokeless powder rating, this is from Green Mountain Barrels website;
SKU:RXS500MZ
Product Description
Caliber- .50 cal
Twist Rate- 1:28
Length- 27"
Profile- Turned barrel blank
Steel Type- 416SS
They told me it is the same 416SS steel that's used in their other high power barrels. I put a 45 cal 14 tw GM SS barrel on a Rem 700ML that shoots very well. Hope this helps...
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Post by 71yella on Dec 30, 2021 10:45:40 GMT -5
Thanks, i just got some MMP 12 sabots to try, have only gone up to 60.0 of h4198 but now that i have my chrono working again, im gonna get back to testing.
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Post by driven2tri24 on Jan 6, 2022 17:25:40 GMT -5
I can not find information that says Green Moutain barrels are rated for smokeless powder. Do you have a link that says otherwise? Bill Perhaps another smoker trying to quit..lol |
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Post by 71yella on Jan 7, 2022 23:26:38 GMT -5
Bill, this is a 416ss, barrel from precision rifle in Canada, after some digging i found it is a GM, it is smokeless rated.
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Post by billc on Jan 8, 2022 21:20:52 GMT -5
Bill, this is a 416ss, barrel from precision rifle in Canada, after some digging i found it is a GM, it is smokeless rated. Thanks! Glad to know, I didn't want to cry wolf on a subject I'm ignorant on. |
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Post by 71yella on Jan 9, 2022 18:45:10 GMT -5
Oh i understand, this was a kit bought for me to build a barrel nut(remage) gun, i have been learning from this board and the other one
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Post by sideshow on Jan 10, 2022 3:15:37 GMT -5
Bill, this is a 416ss, barrel from precision rifle in Canada, after some digging i found it is a GM, it is smokeless rated. Thanks! Glad to know, I didn't want to cry wolf on a subject I'm ignorant on. Yea i have the same barrel , .500/.510 SS , from GM in a raw blank . Mine was originally listed as air guaged too . It would make a nice Really Big Game rifle !!! Not all Green Mountain barrels are smokless capable . The thing to look for is beyond being stress relieved from the button rifleing is that its Heat Treated . This and material its made of is the difference to being smokeless capable for barrels . Its built right in their process of manufacture . For our purposes contour matters too as this effects loading capability for strength . Thats why i got a raw blank . Shorter smaller dia. shanks are really the limiting load factor more so than the rest of the barrel as long as you dont go too small there as well . For a 50 its hard to imagine anybody wanting anything too hurky for deer when you gotta lug the thing around as well as being bullet to bore limited range preformance and commonly found and used projectile limited .They Are out there however to be found !!! A stoutly built 50 would be a real bruiser on the truly big & nasty critters as long as its range limitations are respected vs a 45 IMO . Unless mine is wanted by somebody more able than 63yr old me it will continue to stand in the corner for those reasons . Most cant imagine only 1 practicle range limited shot on a Coastal Grizzly when their capable of 35 mph up the side of a mountain with 30ft leaps !!! A western elk or Alaskan moose , or grizzly hunt isnt gonna happen for me it seems with some Really Stout & Heavy loads in it Far above whats commonly used . That was the intentions . Oh well......it would be a Dandy !!! |
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Post by 71yella on Jan 10, 2022 10:58:45 GMT -5
This one was turned to 1.060 for about 3" in front of lug then a contour down to roughly .900 and taper to .850 at 24". It won't handle the super mag loads like the full shank 45s, and i don't want that much kick anyway. Just wanted a cleaner gun but this thing is not producing those amazing groups some here get. I've tried 275 furys with horrible results, best groups have been with 300s in a red crush rib, still only average about 1.5-2" groups a 100. Don't know what else to try. Can't get vv120 powder here so. It uses those cut 308 cases with a savage ventliner, i made a brass filler with a .100 flame channel to drop into each case when loading so i get as much fire as possible to ignite. Next testing will be with .458 bullets and orange sabots.
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Post by sideshow on Jan 13, 2022 12:13:59 GMT -5
This one was turned to 1.060 for about 3" in front of lug then a contour down to roughly .900 and taper to .850 at 24". It won't handle the super mag loads like the full shank 45s, and i don't want that much kick anyway. Just wanted a cleaner gun but this thing is not producing those amazing groups some here get. I've tried 275 furys with horrible results, best groups have been with 300s in a red crush rib, still only average about 1.5-2" groups a 100. Don't know what else to try. Can't get vv120 powder here so. It uses those cut 308 cases with a savage ventliner, i made a brass filler with a .100 flame channel to drop into each case when loading so i get as much fire as possible to ignite. Next testing will be with .458 bullets and orange sabots. Are you able to measure the bore and the size of a loaded sabot ?? What you want is an interferance fit of .003 to .004 usually for best accuracy ive found . I know the barrel Should Be 500/510 , BUT ya never know till you measure them !!! If your bore is a little sloppy try a 458 in the black 451-2 crushrib sabot as that tightens things up a bit if youre in the 502 area . If youd like a list of bullets and sabots and their sizes i believe Modern Muzzleloader has a sticky about that . My blank isnt really lapped nicely so you may want to lap yours too . Thats helped with sabots immensely in the past or bore riders both with accuracy issues . Often with sabots accuracy goes to hell if you try to push them too hard with charges . Did PR reccomend a charge for the barrel or give any kind of info ?? They should offer something i would think for guidance as well as safety for that barrel after all they do sell it !!! Testing had to have been done too . Youre right , its not very beefy at all and a person would think theyd address that for safe loads . Sure seems thin for smokeless !!! |
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Post by 71yella on Jan 14, 2022 0:51:04 GMT -5
With a squeaky clean barrel I measured 500/510,i got a size pack of thor bullets and 501 went easily,502 felt about right like loading a saboted bullet. But when barrel was fouled i had to hammer down the 502. The hottest load I've tried is 60g I4198 and 300xtp. That went around 2270. I've gotten load data from PR and he likes T7, i tried it, hard crud ring where bullet seats and almost couldn't get ramrod pulled back out. Just frustrating to hear everybody getting a 45/70 scout converted and with the gold standard load of 65g 4198/275 Pittman, all seem to shoot ragged hole groups. Guess im not holding my mouth right or something?
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Post by sideshow on Jan 15, 2022 13:05:09 GMT -5
With a squeaky clean barrel I measured 500/510,i got a size pack of thor bullets and 501 went easily,502 felt about right like loading a saboted bullet. But when barrel was fouled i had to hammer down the 502. The hottest load I've tried is 60g I4198 and 300xtp. That went around 2270. I've gotten load data from PR and he likes T7, i tried it, hard crud ring where bullet seats and almost couldn't get ramrod pulled back out. Just frustrating to hear everybody getting a 45/70 scout converted and with the gold standard load of 65g 4198/275 Pittman, all seem to shoot ragged hole groups. Guess im not holding my mouth right or something? Youve built a completely different rifle !!! How can it be the same ?? You built a 50 not a 45 . Look up old posts for a 50 and follow what theyve done without substitutions . Any old data isnt gonna work out well or could not even be safe . . Saboted your loaded sabot shouldnt be any bigger than .504 across the shank . Fury has some bore riders for a 50 too to try without requireing sizeing . If something is too tight going down the barrel dont just cram ram a round down anyway !!! For a muzzleloader to shoot well is going to require some thoughtfull input from you . |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2022 13:40:45 GMT -5
No do not cram the load down the barrel.I have guys who have it rough loading their barrel and when theyget it down they take and bounce the ram rod off the bullet 3-4times.That is a sure way to damage the bullet and you will get no accurcy at all.
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Post by 71yella on Jan 16, 2022 0:29:15 GMT -5
Sideshow, yes I have a 50 not 45, all im saying is it seems like the scout conversion is the easiest to get lined out. And I knew that the bullet i hammered down would not hit anywhere near where i wanted but i had to get it down to shoot it. Normally shoot sabots .452 bullets. And when i first started with hornady black sabots i couldn't get 4198 to ignite. I switched to the red crush ribs and now it goes boom everyone. I just wish i could find a combo that would shoot close to 1" groups consistently.
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Post by sideshow on Jan 17, 2022 19:33:45 GMT -5
Sideshow, yes I have a 50 not 45, all im saying is it seems like the scout conversion is the easiest to get lined out. And I knew that the bullet i hammered down would not hit anywhere near where i wanted but i had to get it down to shoot it. Normally shoot sabots .452 bullets. And when i first started with hornady black sabots i couldn't get 4198 to ignite. I switched to the red crush ribs and now it goes boom everyone. I just wish i could find a combo that would shoot close to 1" groups consistently. Ok ....first you gotta Know your bore size positiveally . My blank is exactly .500 yours sounds different . Check it !!! Ive never had any kind of real accuracy from mmp sabots . This includes those hornadys . The bullet never sits stress free down in there bottomed out without petals trying to sqease it up and out . To me theyre Junk . Harvesters dont act like that . The bullet stays seated down in the bottom of the sabot . Ya gotta have that !!! You must measure the sabot with the bullet in it across its shank . It can be no more than .003 to .004 thou bigger than your bore . If its loose i knurl the bullet untill i get my needed size for fit . I knurl every bullet a little regardless for sabot use . It puts better spin on the bullet from the rifleing twist and impeads drilling sabots ( sabot failure with bullet pushed thru its bottom ) . Depending on powder i will use a wool wad on top of the powder before i put the saboted bullet in the barrel to shield it from heat too . For a 50 cal use a 54 wool wad . Just seat the sabot down there with a firm push , no more . We dont want to distort and stretch the sabot . Start with low charges and creep up till your groups open . The opening of groups tells you the sabot can take no more of that powder - its at its limit and maxed out . If you are useing a sabot friendly powder this should shoot . Without actually seeing whats going on its the best i got . Some guys may say you dont have to do all this measureing and fitting . I say if you know Exactly what you got its dam hard to get lost like you are now !!! Keep the roadmap to success is my advice . You will find that a 50 cal bore rider bullet like the Fury with a polywad riveted to its bottom will give the best accuracy the barrel is capable of . To be honest thats where i would be looking to do to see IF it Will Shoot At All . New dont mean its a good barrel . Its merely untested . Follow the Savage 50cal load data too here . Thats not a very beefy barrel at all . Theres a ton of information here on those loads if you look for it . Always start low and work up your charges . This rifles specs should be capable of approx 300yd accuracy when sorted out and correctly built . Muzzleloading only seems primitive . Actually its a thinking mans shooting . We are way past all that Daniel Boone crap . Good Luck !!! |
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Post by 71yella on Jan 17, 2022 20:41:15 GMT -5
I was looming at those furys, didn't know if anybody had tried em. im not drilling sabots,but only the red crush ribs hold enough pressure for the 4198 to lite off reliably. I just picked up some more 5744 so i will test it more as well.
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Post by sideshow on Jan 17, 2022 21:10:38 GMT -5
I was looming at those furys, didn't know if anybody had tried em. im not drilling sabots,but only the red crush ribs hold enough pressure for the 4198 to lite off reliably. I just picked up some more 5744 so i will test it more as well. Theres not alot of guys still shooting the 50 anymore here . I would go back thru the old posts to see what all was found to work best . Many dont use this resource and thats a shame . Especially with a 50 i think youd really miss out !!! I dont think theres much that hasnt been tried . Those Furys i described are newer offering but softer so obturation will be much better than the older ones . Thats whats needed to shoot really well accurately bore riding !!! Ringing this thing out will take some time . It usually does and unfortuneately that can get expensive and consume time . We all go thru it at times . Youll get there !!! |
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Post by 71yella on Jan 17, 2022 21:38:12 GMT -5
If i would've known the advantage to the 45 i would have passed on this 50 barrel. Luckily I didn't pay for it. I've learned a lot with these sites and im gonna go back to my notebook and see if i can get those 1.5" groups to be consistent. If so im done looking, it will do all i need out to 150-200yds. Lately all my MZ huntimg has been on my own property or public and i can shoot any more than that. Just didn't think it was gonna fight me this much.
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Post by sideshow on Jan 17, 2022 21:58:19 GMT -5
If i would've known the advantage to the 45 i would have passed on this 50 barrel. Luckily I didn't pay for it. I've learned a lot with these sites and im gonna go back to my notebook and see if i can get those 1.5" groups to be consistent. If so im done looking, it will do all i need out to 150-200yds. Lately all my MZ huntimg has been on my own property or public and i can shoot any more than that. Just didn't think it was gonna fight me this much. Funny how some can try a mans patience and another is a breeze . A 45 just has alot of choices to tune with over the 50 . For your ranges you wont be handicapped at all . The sabot fit i spoke of works regardless of caliber is my finding . Bullet bottoms can come into play with a 45 using 40s more so than a 50 mz using a 45 . They all got quirks to recon with truthfully . Powder choice is a big deal too . It Matters !!! Youll get there but be sure to use this library of info to its fullest . Those experiances will prove invaluable . Especially the powder ones !!! IMHO thats the KEY !!! |
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Post by 71yella on Jan 17, 2022 22:03:22 GMT -5
Powder choices are limited in my area, and i have a lot powders now that i use for centerfire stuff that won't help here. And to add to the frustration, i bought my wife a cva optima stainless and it shoots 2 pellets with black sabots and any 240/250 really well and is enough power for her. Almost tempted to get another one and scrap this 700/sml rig,lol
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Post by sideshow on Jan 17, 2022 22:13:44 GMT -5
What you learn long term will benefit you more than if it was easy !!! The 700ml is a fine rifle sorted out . I love mine !!!
The powder challenges we all got for now so dont feel too bad . We are all in this together . Alot of exploring is being done to find alternatives that work . Not all bad really . The bh209 shortage i think is messing up the most people right now . Nothing else like it .
Now may be a good time to invest in a Quick Loads program if you dont already have one . Thats what many are using to find loads with limited powder choices available . Pretty cool tool .
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Post by 71yella on Jan 17, 2022 22:20:45 GMT -5
Yea i got a lot of seasons left to use it once i get it beat into submission, i lost a good buck because of my old smoker that decided to fall apart 2 seasons ago. Luckily the deer lived, just battle scarred. But I absolutely hate to have a gun i can't trust. So it went to the scrap pile in pieces. And put this barrel in a 243 donor action.
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Post by 71yella on Jan 17, 2022 22:40:28 GMT -5
Side, i just measured the drop from shortening this barrel and best i measure its .5005/.510, so should be ok?
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Post by sideshow on Jan 18, 2022 17:06:36 GMT -5
Side, i just measured the drop from shortening this barrel and best i measure its .5005/.510, so should be ok? As long as you size things correctly as now you know !!! This is a big deal that nobody hardly ever does . I dont get that . Batches of sabots can be different the same with bullets . Dies wear out . Im dilligent about this for a reason - it Matters !!! Incidently going back in this thread you mentioned 458 bullets with appropriate sabots . Thinner petals do usually shoot better . Its just harder to find slippery bullets . My 700ml is being transformed into a switch-barreled smoker/smokless . The old 50 factory barrel i had for it shot under a 1/2 inch at 100yds most of the time using these techniques . That one has been replaced with another factory 50 barrel because of pitting . I just couldnt see brakeing it while pitted . The other barrels are a 54 factory and a SML 416 barrel . Crazy right lol !!! They all will shoot doing as ive said . Sizing a borerider undersized and knurling up to size helps obturation imensely too . Ive found very positive results doing this as well . Just follow the formula as well as the other good input here guys posted and youll end up very proud of that Remington . Even better is the satisfaction of knowing You made it shoot -- Priceless !!! Enjoy the journey !!! |
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Post by 71yella on Jan 18, 2022 21:57:05 GMT -5
Yes, agreed i have a 257roberts AI, it fought me too, has a thin barrel that "was" 26" long, I cut it to 22" and recrowned and discovered the bore and outer were not concentric. So it had some funky harmonics, after the cut it put 3 different loads with different components all under 1". Still plenty fast with 117g boolits.
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Post by 71yella on Jan 30, 2022 22:47:50 GMT -5
Ok well got to try out the new fury's today. 44.5g of A5744 and the 285g fury universal fit. I will say this, that poly base is something, loading feels same as loading a saboted bullet. So the first 2 rounds made a big hole, #3 I may have pulled a little it was about 1/2" from those two, shot 4 cloverleaf with 1&2, making group 1.25". I adjusted scope to hit about 1" high (100yds). It landed right on money. Awesome. So then I loaded up to confirm my scope reticle at 200yds. It landed 1" below the hash mark on my scope. I came up 2 clicks and shot again, that one hit dead on the reticle mark. I was averaging 1980fps. Anybody use these fury universal with polymer tip on deer?
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