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Post by ET on May 28, 2020 7:04:49 GMT -5
With time on my hands from this Covid-19 pandemic I begin to wonder what is in store for SML. With the many advancements over the years with equipment one wonders if there is any more room for improvement? With so little posting on this board it appears so many already have their favorite loads developed. Then again with this pandemic ranges are closed limiting shooting activity. It sure has put a damper for further powder testing for me until the range opens up again.
This past week had ambient temps in the 80’s and it would have been nice to see the effect on load resistance. I know there will be other opportunities but it would have been nice to find some answers sooner.
As there is not anything, I can think of for further preparations of testing I want do it’s now a waiting game for the range to re-open again. When I’m on watch for deer hunting, I have the patience necessary but this waiting game for what I want to accomplish because of restrictions frustrates me. Such is life.
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Post by jims on May 28, 2020 7:24:19 GMT -5
Some of the SML rifles now exceed what many centerfire rifles do. With that being said and as good as they are IMO I see less SML use. That is because I believe with the increase of straight wall cartridges where only shotgun and blackpowder subs were permitted it has cut down on the use of the SMLs. Even where they are permitted often one has harvested the deer before that late season so they do not need to go to that season.
A number of States have in some locations permitted bottleneck centerfires where they did not do so in the past. Here in Ohio so many are using bows so some type that they are limited out before the various gun seasons come in. Just a lot of competition and the SMLs seem to get left behind.
My family likes the SMLs but that season can be much colder, I could see a a gradual adoption by them of alternatives. Maybe I should sell some of mine why I still have a chance.
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Post by cuda on May 28, 2020 11:21:10 GMT -5
Now that it is too hot 80s to shoot sabots there will be no shooting. I have sabotless too but I am disabled and can not take the heat. And it has been raining off and on for days here. The range is open here but the rain is holding us back. The SML is still the best long range deer gun but I try to hold to 200yds or less. My 10ml-ll 50cal is zeroed at 200yds and it is a 300gr sabot load too.
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Post by dannoboone on May 28, 2020 13:20:56 GMT -5
There are those who are still improving SML shooting, with 1,000yd
matches and even talk of one mile. However, these are not hunting
rifles, being heavy enough to require the strength of Paul Bunyan
or the use of a hand cart to do so. The cost of such rifles makes
the original 10MLII and 700ml conversions seem very inexpensive.
Needless to say, there's only a handful of these shooters, yet
they are improving the sport.
I agree with Jims that states allowing straight walled cartridges
are harming SML as well as the smokers in many cases. A .45-70 lever
action would be much preferable to a shoulder punishing slug gun. A
LGS owner told me that since straight-walled was allowed in Iowa,
their slug gun and muzzle loading sales have taken a beating, even
though ML seasons have remained ML only. The .45-70 sales have been
on the increase. Apparently, this has taken many ML hunters away
from the sport and they are getting more and more into the shotgun
seasons which now allow straight-walled cartridge rifles (and
many pistols.)
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Post by ET on May 28, 2020 13:29:03 GMT -5
Jims
I really appreciate your response that has further opened my eyes as to what is happening with SML today.
From my first deer to all the following deer with my 10ML-II they have been one-shot kills. This had me sold on how I would hunt deer from that point on.
It was a struggle at first to get my 10ML-II to respond properly but it was worth the effort. What I also learned was the importance of choosing your shot and knowing your limit.
Regardless of the SML status this will not deter me from further testing.
Cuda
I can appreciate your health condition limiting your SML activity. But I need to know at what point temp effects sabot performance to an unacceptable level. Also, will a wad make a difference.
My eventual goal is to develop a log book with my best loads for a given bullet and powder. Here I can find the right load for a given temp range. No more guessing as my options will be recorded. The unanswered question is what my powder options will be.
I have a way to go before I have my needed info but I will eventually have it.
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Post by ET on May 28, 2020 14:12:06 GMT -5
Dannoboone
From my perspective there are now more Classes of SML shooters out there. I fall under the Hunter and Recreational shooter. This is my comfort zone and meets my needs for hunting. Other SML shooters have different needs like more velocity that I can appreciate. In the end I guess each Class dances to the beat of their own music.
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Post by encore50a on May 28, 2020 14:20:35 GMT -5
Our range just opened back up and I might say, its about time. I was going stir crazy. I did shoot a couple Satterlee tests, one with Benchmark and the other with IMR8208 to find nodes. I got to the range a little later than I should have, as the sun was already creating mirage pretty bad. I used JBM to create a temporary range card. I adjusted the scope to a 100yd zero and started shooting longer. Our range is limited to 600yds. 200yds to 400yds...… card was perfect. At 500yds it shot 1/2moa high and at 600yds 1/2moa low, so very close. Shooting my Bestill custom (DUNAMIS) 45cal Benchmark Arrowhead 300gr XLD By the time I shot 500 and 600yds, the mirage was the worst I've ever experienced. The spotting scope was worthless and the targets looked like waving flags in a 15mph wind. This is the 3 shot 500yd target......  I've never experienced mirage so bad when attempting to shoot 600yds. All I felt I could do, was to attempt to center the target and just send them. It appears I was able to keep them at moa...…..  |
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Post by jims on May 28, 2020 20:13:57 GMT -5
Still solid shooting at those ranges and conditions
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Post by lakeplainshunter on May 29, 2020 5:29:34 GMT -5
I feel like a redheaded stepchild still using Remington 700 MLSs converted to .45 shooting sabots and sabotless. I am still trying to improve them while it seems most have abandoned them. If you are not using a LMRP these days, you are not one of the cool kids it seems. JMO.
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Post by jims on May 29, 2020 6:49:08 GMT -5
That is still an effective combo for many situations.
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Post by ET on May 29, 2020 7:28:21 GMT -5
Encore50a
This is what I truly enjoy seeing when a member takes the time participating with sharing his range results.
Appreciate and thanks for this.
That is some nice shooting considering the adverse condition when mirage comes into play.
My hope at the moment is that the range I shoot at will open again soon so that I can continue with my project.
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Post by lakeplainshunter on May 29, 2020 7:49:47 GMT -5
That is still an effective combo for many situations. The Remington 700 ML conversions were all the rage only 6-8 years ago. Yes, they are still very effective if used within their limitations. I have a fix for mine that I am in the process of implementing. These are my go to guns for deer hunting even though I can use rifles in this part of the State now. |
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Post by lwh723 on May 29, 2020 9:11:28 GMT -5
I’ve got about 4 new things that will debut in next couple of months. Some pretty exciting stuff. Was a lot easier to tinker when I wasn’t so busy building guns for customers, but I’m learning to make time.
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Post by lwh723 on May 29, 2020 9:14:49 GMT -5
I feel like a redheaded stepchild still using Remington 700 MLSs converted to .45 shooting sabots and sabotless. I am still trying to improve them while it seems most have abandoned them. If you are not using a LMRP these days, you are not one of the cool kids it seems. JMO. They’re still better than what you can buy in the store for the most part. As a builder the variation in shotgun primers is hard to deal with especially with guys that just want to shoot. Since I control every part of the system with LRMP, there’s a lot fewer headaches. |
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Post by cuda on May 29, 2020 10:16:40 GMT -5
Thanks ET I did the 45 to be sabotless for warm weather to where sabots started to fail in the 50. I still like to shoot I even have 2 high power pellet guns one .177 and a .22. Just to have fun with the grandkids and get them into shooting. I would like to take them deer hunting some day.
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Post by ET on May 29, 2020 11:42:25 GMT -5
Thanks ET I did the 45 to be sabotless for warm weather to where sabots started to fail in the 50. I still like to shoot I even have 2 high power pellet guns one .177 and a .22. Just to have fun with the grandkids and get them into shooting. I would like to take them deer hunting some day. It is my hope that you get the chance to take your grandkids deer hunting one day. I can't think of a better instructor/teacher than a loving grandparent. |
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Post by jims on May 29, 2020 12:04:21 GMT -5
Would like to see the fixes you two have in store. Just wish they would be a bit sooner, Oct gets close to deer hunting.
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Post by rjhans53 on May 30, 2020 21:35:37 GMT -5
Heck I'm still shooting my 45 cal barrels on savage short actions, savage style breech plugs with a carbide bushing, sabot's and 200 sst's. 209 primers to boot. They have yet to fail me so if it ain't broke why fix it. And I'm content and happy with em. my go to is even in a wood savage short action stock
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Post by scottypotty on May 30, 2020 21:53:43 GMT -5
I'm running a encore with 45-70 barrel and savage 209 breech plug w/vent liners.
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Post by reloader22 on May 31, 2020 7:00:23 GMT -5
When the Savage MLII came out we were all in a new Niche group of enthusiasts. The learning curve for most of us was quite a process. And it was very interesting. The enhancement to "flatness" was significant and was taken advantage of once users figured out their own guns unique characteristics. The massive majority of your average Joe Deer Hunter just wants an ML that offers significant performance over their old slug guns and dirty BP inlines. The Savage does that very well once you figure out your gun. The "old days" featured a ton of the average hunters sharing their ideas, growing pains and tests and everyone was engaged heavily. Those days of learning the basics are over and most have moved on and just continue to employ their Savage MLII every year and hunt with some proven loads and techniques. There is not much more to learn and no significant break through revelations. Everyone's testing has reached a point where they are now content with what they have.
Now, a second niche within a niche has formed with mostly the most accomplished shooters and enthusiasts wanting to do incredible long range shooting with very highly customized rifles. Very, very interesting to read about and follow. But to be honest, most of these advancements are way above your average Savage guy who wants a good hunting SML. They surely have no gunsmithing background and all the details of this new niche is way out of their league. Fun to follow but little they can contribute. Thus the lack of activity on the board.
It's not a good or bad thing. It just is what it is. I am one of the Savage users with no intent to look further. There was no better time in my shooting career then the mid-2000's when this was all very new. All the people who were here and all my hunting bud's were very engaged in getting these guns up and running to maximum potential regarding accuracy and speed.
I still follow here and on other forums just to see what is being done, but have little to offer in terms of joining many of those conversations. I have a feeling that this is where the masses have gone. Either gone away or having not much to contribute to the new niche.
ET's reviving of the ML-II in his posts is nice to see and brings back memories of those old days
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Post by jims on May 31, 2020 8:17:09 GMT -5
Well said.
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Post by ET on May 31, 2020 9:52:03 GMT -5
Reloader22
That was an excellent post that provided me with clarity and better understanding of what is transpiring on this board. This board is no longer limited to just the 50 but now includes other SML disciplines where helpful info can be shared. Even though my focus is on the 50 I enjoy reading and learning about the other calibers.
For me being here is not about any recognition for what I’m doing but wanting to share my findings with powders and loads. This Board gave me a lot and I want to be able to give something back. I agree that there may not be any major revelations found but some improvements through refinements should be found. In the end I hope to find my ideal loads to use in my 50. Loads that have a good Rise Time and accompanying velocities.
When hunting with an ideal load knowing exactly what to expect from it instills confidence when I take that shot on game. The remaining factor is the shooters ability and here with additional shooting for testing will help improve that.
If my testing just brings back good memories, I can live with that, chuckle.
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Post by DBinNY on May 31, 2020 10:59:26 GMT -5
Reloader 22 said it perfectly. Stepping up to the Savage 10 ML II was, by far the biggest step up from shotguns. I had loads for my .50 that were sub-1" at 100 yards and killed a lot of deer with it. Then I just "had" to screw a .45 Pac Nor on it, add a third piller and bed it. This could do everything the .50 could do and do it with lighter bullets and less recoil.
Then I "had" to acquire a couple of Remington 700 MLs and convert them with .45 Pac Nors. The first one was prior to Luke going into business so it was a piecemeal situation. I got the barrel direct from Pac Nor (We all owe a debt of gratitude to RB for promoting and DaveD for making these available) and a recoil lug from Richard who happen to have one in his drawer when all the other sources were out of stock. Hunter (on this board) sold me the gun which came with his bolt nose already installed. I made the pillars on my mini-lathe. I used the factory stock for "practice" on pillar bedding. This all came together with a lot of coaching and advice from fellow board members.
The second one (and a couple I put together for buddies) was after Luke opened up but prior to him developing his rear-sealing plug so they all use Savage breech plugs. Having Luke made things much simpler with the one-stop shop. I used a Boyd's stock on number 2 so it looks a little nicer but number 1 shoots every bit as good as number 2 .
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Post by DBinNY on May 31, 2020 11:01:07 GMT -5
Also, my County still does not allow CF rifles so the SMLers are still my primary hunting guns.
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Post by dannoboone on Jun 1, 2020 12:34:32 GMT -5
Also, my County still does not allow CF rifles so the SMLers are still my primary hunting guns. A person on another board has or had a signature line that stated "After the first shot, the rest are just noise." Practically all of my hunting is woods hunting and not once have I felt undergunned, especially after going to .45 barrels. Others can have their straight walled CF's during shotgun season when it often times sounds more like a war zone than a hunting season around here. Although more difficult to hunt in October, I much prefer the quiet solitude (and SAFER) hunting during Iowa's early muzzle loading season. Prior to Iowa DNR allowing straight walled CF's, one had to rush to get one of the 7500 early muzzle loading permits on the first-come first-serve rules. However, as late as last year there was no rush. Perhaps many think the ability to shoot the 2d, 3d, 4th, 5th noise shots has merit.  |
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Post by DBinNY on Jun 1, 2020 13:38:08 GMT -5
I completely agree that one shot is all that is required unless you need to flatten a flock of flattops. If I felt I needed more that one shot I'd use a different weapon. The most appealing feature of the CF rifle to me is the ability to unload it at the end of the day and not have to carry a hardware store around with you to reload should you feel the urge to do so. Many times I have shot deer and just left the gun empty so I could deal with it later in a more controlled environment. Just sayin'...
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Post by mike243 on Jun 14, 2020 9:59:32 GMT -5
I see a lot of younger lazier folks wanting the straight walled cartridge's allowed during muzzle loader season, I am 100% against it, I hunt with my savage 50 cal even during rifle season, I'd rather it go to a limit and hunt with what you want.
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