Brain Matter Burning 4227

[ET]

From doing a little study of different powders for some reason I keep coming back to H4227. Looking at a picture I keep getting an impression this should have a good burning property from its physical configuration. Now I know this powder was black-listed because of reported misfires. Yes, in the first days of just using noodle rod and fiberglass rod I too got a periodic misfire. Well those days are past and I have upgraded my loading and firing system that may well provide the needed burn start (Threshold) to make this a viable powder to use in my 10ML-II. So, I plan to do some tests and give it a chance to show me what it really has to offer.

The main issue is developing that Threshold burn to get the ball rolling. With the addition of load resistance and recessed BP for stronger flame intensity in a smaller volumetric chamber I feel H4227 can be a viable working single powder at least for me. As I have no experience with other BP ignition systems, I can’t comment on them.
This is an itch I just have to scratch for performance and observe PT characteristics. Worse I can do is get a slap across the face that will wipe that smile away, chuckle. So, when the time arrives, 4227 show me what you got.

For now, I’ve decided to post in The Back Porch because this is all hypothetical with no evidence of any kind to back this, yet. If evidence allows me to keep my smile then there will be a posting on the main SML board.
As I’m preparing in a way to start over again, I felt a new Data sheet was in order. Here is the format I’ve chosen for now in Excel.

Well the prep work is done, in place and only need for the wired strain gages to arrive for connector attachment. Then install on my barrel for a workout.

Ed

[dannoboone]

If memory serves correctly, 4227 loads with 300gr bullets were
the most reliable for ignition.

I tried it ONCE with a 250gr SST. The sabot was tight enough
that a magnum primer would not push the bullet out of the
barrel. Had to remove the breech plug. What a mess it was to
get all the powder out of the action!! Attempted to use the
stuff in a Ruger chambered in Colt .45 only to find that the
powder never totally burned. Nearly 2# of it has sat in
storage ever since, although I have been tempted to use it
in a duplex with N110. I have no doubt that it would never
fail to go "boom", but do have doubts of a complete burn of
the 4227.

Good luck!

[ET]

Thanks for the heads up from your experience with 4227. I'm not under the illusion it will be a great powder to use but I need info to see how the grain structure will react with different bullet weights. It's granular shape to me says it will support a longer burn than other powders with smaller grain structures. A trace should support that concept by examining the burnout phase and remaining pressure. Another question I want to answer is how efficient the recessed BP actually is?
It should make a difference, how much yet I don't know. If 4227 needs a hotter burn start then I'll put some 2400 under its butt. This is another powder I want to examine for lighter bullets in the 50. As I'm not looking to set any land speed records I might even find a good youth load with 2400. When you look at existing PT Traces there is a ton for the 45 but few for the 50. I don't plant to even this out but the 50 IMO needs some additional light shined on its capabilities.
Now that I've been bitten by the curiosity bug I've got to let the curiosity infection run its course, chuckle.

Ed

[ET]

In case anyone is wondering how I’m going utilize a PT trace for 4227, I will be closely examining 2 recordings.
First will be the rise in a 35k-40k peak pressure range. The rise needs to fall into 100-120 range. If it exceeds 120 this suggests the Threshold of the burn is too low and requires a booster IMO.
Secondly is the efficiency of the burn. Efficiency is determined by taking the best calculated trace in a set and the others are compared to it. So, this would show performance repeatability of a given load. If the percentage falls between 95-100% I can live with that but prefer a smaller difference in percentage.
Waiting for ordered gages is pushing my frustration level upwards some. I’d like to get cooking and see what good recipes are available out there, chuckle.

Ed

[mrbuck]

Several years ago I tried IMR4227 with a 300gr. XTP in a MMP short sabot ignited by a Federal 209A primer . 46.0grs produced a less than .750" group at 100yds. and was 1988fps at 10'at 58 degrees . The next morning I tried 48.0grs. of IMR4227 and it produced 2089fps at 10" also at 58 degrees . The second group measured 1.380" at 100yds. with 2 shots just touching and 1 shot about high by about 1" . I had no ignition problems . When it cools down in the mornings I may try this combo again looking for 1" groups at about 2000fps. Good enough for me .
Chris

[ET]

Aug 18, 2019 12:33:55 GMT -5 mrbuck said:

Several years ago I tried IMR4227 with a 300gr. XTP in a MMP short sabot ignited by a Federal 209A primer . 46.0grs produced a less than .750" group at 100yds. and was 1988fps at 10'at 58 degrees . The next morning I tried 48.0grs. of IMR4227 and it produced 2089fps at 10" also at 58 degrees . The second group measured 1.380" at 100yds. with 2 shots just touching and 1 shot about high by about 1" . I had no ignition problems . When it cools down in the mornings I may try this combo again looking for 1" groups at about 2000fps. Good enough for me .
Chris

MrBuck
Thanks for sharing and your input. My goal is to apply 4227 to a 250gr bullet. I'm expecting a much lower peak pressure because of it's slower burn rate to begin with. I'll have to see if I can find some 300grain bullets and see what your pressures are for a comparison. Part of me is chomping at the bit to get this project off the ground.

Ed

[mrbuck]

One of the issues for my testing is wind free , cool mornings to keep sabots shooting reliably . Even at less than 60 degrees , waiting 15 minutes between loading eats up a lot of time .
Chris

[ET]

Aug 18, 2019 17:13:20 GMT -5 mrbuck said:

One of the issues for my testing is wind free , cool mornings to keep sabots shooting reliably . Even at less than 60 degrees , waiting 15 minutes between loading eats up a lot of time .
Chris

I know what you mean about bore cooling time but that is the nature of the beast when using sabots. It only takes one good shot (the one that counts) from a cold bore to put meat in the freezer.

Ed

[billc]

Savage book load IMR 4227, 250gr XTP, MMP sabots, Federal 109 (yes 109) was my first SML load. Since I was stepping up from a patched round ball, 2F, #11 cap I thought I was crapping in tall cotton! I had a few misfires that I now would attribute to a hot barrel/sabot issue. The only reason I went to N 110 was the reports that IMR 4227 was being discontinued and supply dried up. My knowledge of SML has increased over nearly 20 years since then, but I wouldn't be too upset if I had to use IMR 4227 in my Savage ML II though I really prefer H 4198 now.

[ET]

Billc

Everyone who shoots a 10ML-II probably has their favorite load now and really doesn't want to explore any other options. Back in the day 4759 fit the bill perfectly for all around usage from primary to booster and very little research was further done unless it was for increased velocity. Even I was locked into 4759 as it provided ideal loads. Okay 4759 is no longer available but there are other powders out there that may offer something worthwhile. I believe 4227 and 2400 are overlooked powders. I have equipment when it's up and running that will provide a clearer insight. For me this isn't about promoting any change but do some valid research that was never done.
When the 45 came on the scene TG's work with PT opened the flood gates for further development with the 45 which I thought was a good thing and still do. As stated I have a love for the 50 and now feel the need to further explore it's capabilities, even including the vent-liner responses. For vents I always got my best groups with 4759 when they reached .034" size. Why? This would suggest I had the best efficiency occurring at this point. So I would like to give this area a better focus while monitoring powder burn responses. I have lots of vents (I drill my own) to swap out at a given orifice size say at .002 increase at a time. I also have 2-different sized BP recess and want to see what difference they might produce.
At this stage of the game I want to learn more and add to the hard-drive between my ears, chuckle.

Ed

[mrbuck]

Very interesting that your groups became better with the .034 vent size . Did this happen with different primers or just one brand . I notice you mention Cheddite primers . Never used them or even saw them for sale locally .
Chris

[jims]

Accuracy in my .50 dropped off once the vent liner orifice got that size. Each ML is different.

[ET]

Aug 21, 2019 6:05:47 GMT -5 mrbuck said:

Very interesting that your groups became better with the .034 vent size . Did this happen with different primers or just one brand . I notice you mention Cheddite primers . Never used them or even saw them for sale locally .
Chris

MrBuck
Cheddite primers have been around for some time in my area and that's all I've basically used in my 10ML-II. Since I'm starting to run low I want to try Cheddite Clerinox 209 primers. Here is some info from Cabelas that might interest you.
www.cabelas.com/product/CHEDDITE-PRIMERS/2331407.uts

Ed

[ET]

Aug 21, 2019 6:45:00 GMT -5 jims said:

Accuracy in my .50 dropped off once the vent liner orifice got that size. Each ML is different.

I agree but also keep in mind we all don't use the same exact loading components. Also my best results with .034" orifice size was in cooler temps. If I had a vent that size I would put it aside for hunting season.

Ed