Load help full form sabotless with 209

[timgunner]

I’m preparing for a Muzzleloader elk hunt in NM and cannot use smokeless powder. I’m going to try blackhorn 209 and most of the info I find on it is for sabot loads I assume the pressure will be higher with full form sabotless loads. Anyone have experience with fullform loads and blackhorn? FYI the muzzleloader is .45 and I’ll be shooting 300gr Parker’s.

[AJ]

I too had to hunt with BH209 during my elk hunt last year. In the off season I shot my ML guns with full form bullets and BH209 but for hunting, I went to smooth form bullets. One less thing to deal with as far as indexing while hunting. What gun are you shooting? Pressure will not be your limiting factor. I have traces of 350 gr full formed bullets with 105 gr by weight of BH209 and it is only 32k PSI. You will find you stop gaining velocity and just blow unburned powder out the muzzle when you get over 105 gr by weight. Recoil is pretty stout also.

Do you have a hunt booked with an outfitter or just hopeful thinking for the draw?

[timgunner]

It is a custom built on a Remington 700 ml with Luke’s breach plug and a 26” Shilen barrel. I applied for the unit 15 quality mature bull tag without an outfitter so I’m just wishfully anticipating getting a tag. I have a good friend that just moved to NM so I figured I better start applying now. His brother harvested a nice bull last year in the same unit and said he would help us if we get drawn. What difference in velocity did you see with smooth versus fullform sizing?

[AJ]

Your rifle will be fine for the 105 gr loads with just about any bullet you want.

Good luck in the draw. Unit 15 is a great unit. You know you have about a 5% chance of drawing a tag, right? It is super tough to draw in a good unit. I have never drawn a 15 tag despite putting in for it for the last 12 years. in fact, I have only had 3 bull tags and 1 cow tag in 12 years. All muzzy tags.

The velocity change was minimal going to smooth form. I don't recall exactly, but it was not enough to make me second guess the decision. Even with 300 gr bullets, you will still have a solid 400 yard elk ML.

[7mmfreak]

You are looking at somewhere between 15 and 30fps difference in my testing with the bigger difference being ES and SD advantage of FF sizing along with generally better precision.

[timgunner]

Thanks for the input! I really expected a bigger difference than 30fps. I just watched a video of a NM muzzleloader elk hunt where the guy shoots 3 times at the elk at a distance that seems less than 100 yds. I’m sure having smooth formed bullets would be a huge asset in that situation!

[7mmfreak]

Don't put your self in that situation. You can always choose not to crush the trigger since we aren't a hunter/gatherer society. Choose high percentage shots and you won't know the difference but I can reload a full-form within probably 5 seconds of what I can reload a smooth form.

[lwh723]

Mar 14, 2018 18:07:51 GMT -5 7mmfreak said:

Don't put your self in that situation. You can always choose not to crush the trigger since we aren't a hunter/gatherer society. Choose high percentage shots and you won't know the difference but I can reload a full-form within probably 5 seconds of what I can reload a smooth form.

+1. But I’m probably more like within 4 seconds

[petev]

AJ I am looking at the Blackhorn chart and 105 gr by weight seems to correspond to 150 gr by volume. If this is the case that seems like a huge huge load. Blackhorn measured by volume is very close to what we used in Pyrodex ffg in th past. In my TC Omega 50 cal I use 100 gr by volume Blackhorn and it really kicks. I am interested in what folks think? Also blackhorn provides a good loading chart online.

[AJ]

Mar 14, 2018 19:17:39 GMT -5 petev said:

AJ I am looking at the Blackhorn chart and 105 gr by weight seems to correspond to 150 gr by volume. If this is the case that seems like a huge huge load. Blackhorn measured by volume is very close to what we used in Pyrodex ffg in th past. In my TC Omega 50 cal I use 100 gr by volume Blackhorn and it really kicks. I am interested in what folks think? Also blackhorn provides a good loading chart online.

You are correct sir. I am using this load in a smokeless capable gun. The 105 gr BH209 load kicks less than some of the 50k psi smokeless loads. My gun also has a radial brake. I shot 85.0 gr by weight in my TC Omega and it worked fine for my first bull, but I was limited to 250 yards due to the load performance (not accuracy but energy/speed). I wanted a muzzleloader that was capable of cleanly taking a bull elk at 400 yards. I shot my bull this year well under 100 yards but I was prepared and capable of shooting much further if the situation presented itself.

Most folks on this board are shooting custom guns. The majority are smokeless capable and can digest a steady diet of 40-50k psi loads. They shoot well when fed BH209 as well so when the law dictates I use something other than smokeless, I follow the rules but use every advantage I can. In this case it is heavy loads. I am by no means recommending any loads for others to use in their own guns. I am just saying what I use. I have the pressure trace equipment and the ability to develop my own loads, safely.

[petev]

Thanks for clarfying AJ. You are way ahead of me in analyzing more technical loads for muzzleloaders, especially those capable of using smokeless. I just wanted to make sure that folks shooting muzzleloaders not capable of shooting smokeless wouldn't overload their rifles. Good explanation thank you.

[elktaker]

I am shooting a 458 brux barrel in Utah with BH209(required for hunting as well) and I found that 452 bullets FF where more accurate than 458 bullets FF. Accuracy being from clean shooting 3 shoots before cleaning. To get sub-moa without cleaning with .458 bullets, I had to size the first bullet tighter to the barrel and the next two looser.

With 452 bullets, I can size the bullets all the same.

If you are shooting parkers, you will likely not have much of an issue. I started shooting Parker Emax and BE, they were extremely accurate and I could do a whole session with no cleaning. I ended up switching to bombs and I am very happy with them. There BC is pretty high and they preform well at the velocities that I expect with BH209. I killed one mule deer buck with the bombs at 250 yd and it preformed ideally.

I am shooting FF 344 gr .452 bombs now over 95 gr of BH209 and they are much easier to shoot than the original .458s that I had. What Parker's are you shooting? They all shoot extremely accurate out of my gun but I did not like expected terminal performance. I which they made a 325 or 350 gr Emax then I would have went with them.