.44 mag. 240 vs. 300 Gr. loads

[illinihunter]

Since I purchased my ML II the old .44 has spent too much time in the safe. I recently got it back out and plan to hunt with her again this upcoming season. I will still use the muzzle loader for my "prime hunter of choice" but the handgun hunter in me still yearns for the opportunity to come out and play.
In the past several years the 300 gr. bullet driven to 1150 fps (out of a short 7 1/2" barreled revolver) has been my load of choice for whitetail hunting, but I have recently reviewed and changed my way of thinking about this round. I have come up with a 240 grain hand load that delivers 1450 fps and is very accurate. The ballistic calculators that I have referred to show that this load is superior to the 300's in terms of energy & trajectory.
I do not doubt the math involved in these calculations, but I am curious to hear about any real life experiences that anyone has had with either of the two bullet weights in question here.
My past experience with the .44 - 300's tell me that they can cleanly harvest deer but they are on the lower limit of energy transfer (maybe I am not pushing them fast enough) penetration is not a problem. I am looking for more knockdown power and I wonder if I am heading in the right direction with this caliber.
I do wish to acquire a more powerful handgun setup but this is what I have for now.
Please share any experiences that you may have had with .44 mag performance in any bullet weight / speed.
Thanks a bunch,
Jeff

[boarhog]

I have killed several deer with 44 mag. Some with my10" Ruger Super Blackhawkl. It's fave load is the 240 gr Hornady XTP with 23 gr H-110, and chronos 1450 fps. All shots on deer were inside 50 yds, and have been pass throughs, with good bullet performance. Not all DRT, but good blood trails.

Quite a few more deer fell to the Ruger 44 carbine using 240 gr XTPs, 300 gr XTPs, and lately, 275 gr Rem HP fact loads. All have performed well, and the deer didn't go far, but I recovered 4-5 bullets that didn't exit. All recovered bullets were perfect mushrooms.

This year, I will try using the new Hornady 225 gr FTX fact load, and the 265 gr FTX in handloads. Accuracy has been really good on paper, and I hope I will have an opportunity to see how well they work on deer.

I do not believe in intensionally trying fancy head, neck or spine shots on deer. There is simply too much chance for a less than perfect shot to result in a woulded and lost deer. I always do my best to hit the shoulder, or just behind the shoulder. I don't expect the deer to be DRT with the 44 mag.

[dans]

My hunting partner killed 9 deer with a 7and 1/2 inch ruger blackhawk. He shot the remington 240 grain HP and didn't have any trouble killing deer out to 180 yards. He had a scope on the it and shot up 3 pounds of powder getting ready for that first deer season with the pistol. He shot a max load of 2400 powder behind this bullet.

[wilmsmeyer]

I think boarhog made some good points. I have never owned a .44 mag but used a Thompson Center thunderhawk ML to kill quite a few deer......with a .429 240 gr XTP at 1400-1500 fps.

On rib shots into heart and lungs, deer rarely went over 50 yds and never dropped DRT. Bullets were almost always recovered under the off side hide.

So, IMO you will gain little or nothing in "knockdown" power over a 300 gr bullet at 1150 fps. Like boarhog was saying, you need fancy head, neck and spine shots to knock things down.

Unless you plan on duplicating your friends 180 yd shots, trajectory will improve a little but not dramatically enough to know the difference on a deers vitals inside 100 yds. Both loads are relative bloopers.

As for energy, both are obviously adequate from your experience with 300's and mine with 240's. I say pick whatever shoots the best

[deadeye]

ih,imo you have probably milked the best out of the 44 cal w/240g@ 1450,im guessing you are using h110,if not try it ,it is hot & accurate in all my 44's& .357's, might suggest you try nosler jacketed handgun bullets also,if this does not satisfy you might be on your way to a .454casull or even a 50 s&w,good luck

[illinihunter]

Thanks again everyone, I agree with what you are saying. It sounds like the 240's do the job pretty well. No fancy shots for me either I just aim for the crease behind the shoulder on close shots or the center of the lungs on longer shots. Nothing outside of 100 yds. (preferably much, much closer) with the handgun. I don't expect DRT with this round, I've never had a gun consistently do that until the MLII.
Dans are you serous about your partners 180 yd. kills, that's amazing with a .44 .
I know for sure that I have milked all I can out of this .44 and it is still a bit of a blooper. On a sunny day I can see the bullet fly to the target.
Deadeye, he h110 is the hottest and most accurate powder that I have found for the 300's. Interestingly AA#9 does the best for me with the 240's. One extreme to the other as far as the burn rate goes, but that is what I have found. You are right, I still want more power and I am leaning towards the 460SW when I can gather up the extra ca$h.

[illinihunter]

Wilms, I guess that I used the wrong term when I mentioned knockdown power. What I really meant was, I am looking for more energy transfer.
The 300's IMO are a heavier, tougher bullet built to penetrate further. At 1150 (which is all I can get from this round in a short barrel) it seems to punch right through and does not fully open up. I just think it needs to be moving along faster to deposit more energy or perhaps it is just needs to be shot into something bigger than a deer.
The fact that you were recovering the 240's driven at about the same speed that I mentioned tells me that the bullet spends all of it's energy inside the ribcage of a deer, this pretty much answers my question.
While I know that this is an item of great debate but, I personally would rather see a bullet stop under the offside hide than to drill straight though without expanding much. A large exit hole is better yet. But those recovered bullets do make pretty neat souvenirs.

[rossman40]

From my experiences in the past it is more bullet selection. For penetration the heavy hitters are Nosler Partitions and the Swift A-Frames. If your looking for flat out expansion for maximum energy transfer the one the really stands out is the Speer Gold Dot HP 240gr. The other JHPs kinda fall in between with the XTP being a excellent choice. To get the speed needed for these bullets to work most of the manufacturers go light. Face it, you do not always need the penetration for a eastern whitetail that you would need for a bear.

I never played with the Barnes in .44 and none of the newer bullets like the Winchester Platinum Tip and the Hornady FTX. The FTX to me is the most interesting, if you get the SST performance of accuracy, increased downrange performance and rapid expansion it should be very interesting. I'll be wanting to hear Boarhog's reports from the field on these.

[boarhog]

Just a little addendum to my post above. IMO, the faster speed of my carbine, 1600-1900 fps with 240-300 gr, is much more likely to produce recovered bullets than either bullet at 1100-1400 fps. At least that is what I have observed in my own hunting. There is also a larger wound channel and greater tissue damage when using the carbine. I have not hit any deer beyond 100 yds with the 44 mag, but then I generally carry something other than the 44s when hunting places where a longer shot is a possibility. Depending on what speed and accuracy I get from the FTX bullets this year, I may feel comfortable stretching the range a bit, but that will have to be decided later.

[whyohe]

i have found that the 200 grn Hornady XTP is plenty out of my Marlin lever action. these are at 1950 fps 10 feet from the muzzle. i have gotten 2 deer. one was DRT the other went 50 yards. i have yet to get one with my pistol. but it shoots the 240grn Hornady XTPs better. i dont see a reasont to go above 240 for whitetails.

[illinihunter]

I too find the FTX bullet very interesting, if only one could buy just the 200gr. bullets instead of loaded ammo, I would love to give them a try (maybe they will be available next year). They are available in the 265gr. version but they are specified for use in .444 which tells me that they need to be pushed along faster than what my little revolver can dish out (the carbines are not legal hunting weapons here).

Winchester does not seem to want to sell the platinum tip bullets in .429 either. However my first whitetail with a handgun fell to a 250gr. Black Talon which is basically the same bullet. It was a 15 yard double lung shot, it opened up and passed through and the deer went about 5 more feet (any bullet should do that at point blank range).

It seems to me that some of the manufacturers want to force us to buy their ammo if we want to use the premium bullets.

I will have to experiment with some of the Noslers & gold Dot HP's one of these days.

[boarhog]

I used to hunt with a guy that used factory load 200 gr Win Silver Tips in his Win92? carbine. Of the 15 or so deer I helped skin, none had pass throughs, and most of the bullets were recovered. That experience turns me off from using anything less than 240 gr in my 44s. I prefer to have holes on both sides on the majority of shots. I have a box of 200 gr Speer HPs and another of 180 gr somethings gathering dust.

[Richard]

boarhog........when you are ready to up grade to the .454 Casull, let me know. I have a pristine Taurus Raging 'Bull with the 8" barrel and a nice red dot scope, complete with shoulder holster, loading dies and cases. I shot one hog with it and now it just sits twiddling its thumbs in my gun safe! ;D
Richard

[whyohe]

a little too punishing richard? even with the porting?

[mike3132]

I have a 454 Ruger Super Redhawk and with full powerhouse loads she rocks!

For whitetail hunting I down load it with 250XTP's @ 1450fps. I use 19.0 grains of Bluedot. This load is like a full power .44 mag using 240 XTP's. Ive only shot one deer with it @ 40 yards broadside and it was a clean pass threw.

The 240 XTP in a .44 mag going 1300-1400 fps is an ideal whitetail load. Mike

[dans]

i-hunter, I almost didn't mention my frilend's 180 yard deer kill. He practiced all summer with his pistol before that hunting season. He is an outstanding shot. I've known him for 40 years and he has never been without a 44 mag pistol. I have seen him have 3 geese dead in the air before the first one hit the ground. 3 doves also. I have seen him double on deer with a muzzleloader 2 head shots at 70 yards. If it is running, walking, standing, or flying doesn't seen to make a difference. He shot this buck as it was trotting along a creek bank with both arms resting on top of a fence post. The first shot hit the buck hard but a little far back, it started to run but not fast kind of humped up, he continued to shoot and emptied the pistol and had a couple more hits. The deer stopped and laid down. He reloaded and started toward the buck to cut down the range and it got up and started off, again not very fast. He fired 4 more times and the buck went down for good. He had six hits, and two bullet burns across the neck and shoulders out of ten shots.

[wilmsmeyer]

That must have been a nice feild dressing experience.

Elmer Keith would have been proud. Ted Nugent would probably faint for the meat loss (if any) and I would probably not shoot at a trotting deer with a revolver at any distance. Probably not even with a rifle. But that's me and my own confidence level.

I have a friend that also can hit anything at any angle. A real marksman under field conditions. It is an art for sure...I've seen some amazing shots. And yes....a few long tracking jobs every few years. I would never want to cross his sights cause he'll put one in me everytime. Where? I don't know.

Bullet TOF becomes HUGE at 180 yds with a coffee cup flying at a MV of 1400 fps! Lot's of things can ruin the best shot. Those folks in the "energy dept" would scowl at the "meager" energy left at 180 yds.

I'll just say...great shooting. That's a guy you want at a gunfight with bad guys running all around! ;D ;D

[deadeye]

not trying to pick a fight but this tof is a cop-out for those who do not understand long -range shooting,no-one who has practiced under their conditions would take a shot at an animal tense ,alert,etc when the time is not right-that is part of long range shooting,conditions & self control dictate as if & when the explosion occurs-period,much like the short range game

[wilmsmeyer]

Deadeye,

At 200 yds lets use a 10 mph deer trot...nice and steady. Math tells me that a deer will cover 14.66 feet per second at 10 mph.

A 240 gr .44 mag slug will get to 200 yds in .53 seconds at a MV of 1400 fps. The deer will have covered 7.77 feet during that time.

A high BC rifle bullet...I'll use a 7mm @ .56 going 3200 fps will reach 200 yds in .26 seconds. The deer will have covered 3.81 feet.

So your point of understanding the situation is very real and you are right. But with a .44 mag pistol that far away on a deer moving at 10 mph you have almost 8 feet of lead and a bunch of drop (2 feet if sighted dead on at 100 yds) to contend with. If you over/under estimate the deers speed by 3 mph you will miss out in front of him or crack him in the butt as the deer will have covered 2.5 feet more OR less then we thought. (Not to mention wind drift)

So...TOF is bunk? I don't think so on a trotting and fast walking deer. Out of 10 shots, the guy put 6 in him and grazed him twice. NO 10 rings. That guy being such a great shot can probably put those 10 shots into a paper plate at 200 on a stationary target....I've seen that done myself with a scoped revolver.

Like I said, that's still good shooting. Just not the shooting I'm capable of. He probably would have taken out a bunch of enemy fighters in combat and then his buddy would have sniped a bunch more that were trying to help them as they squirmed around. I won't consider that you were picking a fight as long as you don't consider what the numbers above say.

I totally understand that you have to be aware of the animals demeanor and the situational variables. I bowhunt and even a 20 yd "cakeshot" is not cake when a mature buck is looking at you stamping its' foot! I get it.

[deadeye]

your point is well taken wilm's,just there are some(not me) that practice moving shots & are good at it. i dont know this gentleman but i would sure like to shoot with him just for fun. tof is important & will be calculated in for those moving shots,for those who practice it. my point on long range shots most are calm animals without a clue whats about to happen. the bullets usually hits them before sound arrives if their homework is done. i bet jerry miculek could make this shot ;D

[boarhog]

I grew up in West Texas. A couple of friends, that I started first grade with, and I would ride our bikes 10-15 miles outside Odessa to an area near an American Oil Pumping Station. We each had managed to buy our own 22 rifles with yard work, or paper route, money. Mine was a Remington Nylon 66 chrome and black that I wish I had back today! Anyway, we would lean our bikes on the barbed wire fence while we walked-up Jackrabbits in this huge fenced pasture. When I say pasture, this was not the green grass type we have here in Arkansas. It was probably a section (1 mile sq) that had a 3 strand fence around it. It had Mesquite brush, kerosene weed, tickle grass, prickley pear, and some sort of grass that might support 1 cow per 10 acres. The old Indian rancher said shoot all the rabbits we could as long as we didn't shoot any livestock, or anything else but rabbits and coyotes.

I know some of you wil think this is a lie, but there were many, many days when Mike, Herby, and I shot well over 100 rabbits apiece. Just shooting them under a Mesquite bush was too easy, so we wouldn't shoot until we spooked them enough to hit high gear. At first, we would have to "walk" the bullet into them by watching the dust kicked up behind it. After a few thousand rabbits and a few coyotes, we got pretty good at making good shots with little ammunition. Later on when we got old (16-19) we sometimes did the same with our 30-06s, although we most usually would lay on the catwalk on oil storage tanks and shoot at them long distance.

Jump forward to 1967 when a new job moved me to Pine Bluff, AR. Some guys I met at church introduced me to duck and deer hunting, and I was hooked! The first deer I ever killed was wounded by someone else. I saw it limp through the woods and lie down under a brush top. Not knowing any better, I got down and walked the thing up. When it exploded out of that top, without even thinking, I started shooting as it ran in a large circle. Each time it leaped across an opening, I would shoot. On my 4th shot it fell over. My hunting partner came over to help me with the deer, and we found that I had hit it all four shots. Three were in a 3" cluster through the chest and the fourth was 6" back. Between the last 2 ribs. My friend looked at my Rem 700 bolt action and said he thought I had been shooting a semi-auto. The wound was across the brisket, and we found a silver tip 30-30 bullet lodged in the right front leg, just under the hide

Since then, I have made a number of running shots on deer. None of those shots were what I wanted, or intended, to do. The second largest buck I've taken was standing still at about 100 yds when I shot the first round, and I fired 2 more shots as he tore past me. We later found that I had burned him across the back my first shot, then hit him twice with the next 2 shots. Now the entire deer camp teases me about giving them "Warning Shots"!

I don't try to do running shots, and advise my Sons and Grandkids against them. I suppose all that shooting at running Jack Rabbits gave me some muscle memory, and something takes me over without my thinking it through. Luckily, I have not yet lost a deer I have shot at while it was running.

Just a footnote: Years later on a trip back home, I took my wife out to where we hunted to try to show her a Jack Rabbit. Couldn't find a single one all afternoon, but we did see the fattest Coyote I've ever seen. Later she did get to see some Jacks, Prarie Dogs, and Burrowing Owls on the University Of Texas Of The Permian Basin grounds that were across the highway from our hotel.

I realize this post has nothing to do with pistol and/or 44 mag bullets, but somehow the subject zigged into the advisability of shooting at moving or running game, and my not being able to shut up turned a comment into a novel.

[dans]

I really didn't mean to stir up an arguement but told the tale to show the effectiveness of 240grain 44 mag bullets at long range. I just bought a 44 mag lever action and maybe will get it wrung out to hunt the Indiana deer season or at least part of it. I know there are a number of Indiana hunters on this board that have shot deer with a 44 mag. Maybe they can chime in.

[wilmsmeyer]

dans,

I don't think you stirred up an argument at all. Just a good dialog. And as for the effectiveness of a 240 gr .429 bullet carrying about 500 lbs of energy, I agree. It is effective. Impact speed at 200 yds is under 1000 fps. No big deal. That is not going to be stopped in a deer....and that means a hole all the way through the pump station. A bad thing to have if you are a mammal.

I said somewhere above that the "energy dept" personnel would not like this part....being so low. However, a perforated aorta or collapsed diaphram does the trick quick. AND...3000 fpe won't always drop a deer DRT with the same hit. Disconnecting the pump and clogging the air intake works no matter the energy. Seen it 100 times.

[whyohe]

i fyou and you gun are up to the task. a good shot will do it IMO. ive taken deer with 200 grns at 100 yards. the muzzle velocity is 1950. and that is with a Hornady XTP. i dont know what that comes out to energy or velocity. i personally would take a shot at 150 yards but that is my personal limit.

[illinihunter]

It is quite alright everybody, We really don't need to stay completely focused on one subject here. This is meant to be fun. Dans and many others answered my question directly, which is what I had requested, Thank you.

Dans your story reminds me of one of my friends encounters. This was an archery hunt, and my buddy told me that he had hit a "Monster Buck", "Mr. Big himself". The shot was less than perfect so we had to back off of the trail in the fading light. Sean took the next two days off from work to track this deer, and he eventually got the job done.

It took a total of seven arrows (and 2 1/2 days) shot from various distances up to 80 yds. to finally claim his trophy. In the end, the deer had been hit 5 times and scored 182 net typical 10. It was the second biggest typical buck killed in the state that year, and was the #1 archery kill for the year. The bigger one was a 12 pt. shotgun kill that won by a couple of 8Th's.

Sorry guys, I got off topic here. I will use the 240's this season to take at least one deer, thanks to your advice. My best 5 shot group @ 50 yds is 1.3" from a bench and can hit a 12 oz soda bottle almost every time offhand from the same distance ( fun,fun). I really need to sit down and rest my elbows inside my knees to take longer shots with a handgun, so I doubt if I can pull off the 180 shot.

I used to practice moving targets with a handgun and surprised myself a couple of times. Some friends and I would tape cardboard onto old tires and roll them down a hill and try to hit them. We really did not do that bad of a job. This was an open sight session, My hunting revolver wears a scope, so I doubt if I could pick up anything that moved that quickly.
Thanks again everyone, and keep the stories coming!