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Post by kennacl55 on Dec 15, 2016 19:46:00 GMT -5
When shooting bullets in a saboted load in a smokless mzl does the bullet still obturate? Has anyone verified this by bullet recovery?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 20:44:50 GMT -5
I haven't seen any test of this however this is why I would knurl the bullet just enough that it would grip the sabot. In my head I felt the bullet would slip in the sabot while moving out of the barrel after ignition. With the knurl I felt the slip would go away and accuracy would increase. Guess I didn't answer your question maybe someone else knows.
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Post by killahog on Dec 16, 2016 11:59:20 GMT -5
Thats an Interesting question, how would someone recover a bullet in a manor that it would not cause it to obturate from the tip to the base when it contacts whatever is being used to stop it.
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Post by edge on Dec 16, 2016 12:33:20 GMT -5
Some do some don't, it probably depends on a lot of factors. Thin soft jackets pushed fast then most likely yes. Copper bullets or not too heavy of a load probably not. IMO, most sabots can't take the pressure needed for much obturation except with pure lead bullets. This is from a very old post of mine back in 2005. I was using RIGID sabots that have very little in common with most soft sabots! dougva.proboards.com/thread/2025/rate-twist-sabotsThis is the 8mm 150 grain bullets I was using along with a sabot: As promised, I have some pictures showing how much a 0.323 bullet can obturate upon firing if not secured in a rigid sabot. This first picture shows the recovered bullet and a pre-fired sabot. Notice how the bullet takes on a near mirror image shape of the sabot. This second picture shows the bullet base. If you look closely you can see where the bullet started flowing into the sabot petal cutouts ( 4 places ). This last picture shows how much the base expanded compared to an unfired bullet. The bullet is 0.447 at its widest point! edge.
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Post by kennacl55 on Dec 16, 2016 12:34:23 GMT -5
Does any think the 240gr-.400-CEBs would obturate when shot saboted in a smokeless MZL or do you think they need annealed. It seems that after annealing a bullet you have changed that bullets characteristics completely.
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Post by fishhawk on Dec 16, 2016 12:48:14 GMT -5
Does any think the 240gr-.400-CEBs would obturate when shot saboted in a smokeless MZL or do you think they need annealed. It seems that after annealing a bullet you have changed that bullets characteristics completely. A few tried shooting the original 240gr CEB saboted with poor results. I thought i heard a new one is out for sabots. As far as obturation on bullets saboted, I just don't remember.
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Post by kennacl55 on Dec 16, 2016 13:06:20 GMT -5
Thanks Edge: I went back to the old post and it really helped me understand a lot about sabots and bullets, that post was before I was a member here and I think there is a lot to learn from reading it. Thanks Again
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 15:10:33 GMT -5
Does any think the 240gr-.400-CEBs would obturate when shot saboted in a smokeless MZL or do you think they need annealed. It seems that after annealing a bullet you have changed that bullets characteristics completely. By annealing you made it softer so the solid copper base does not blow the sabot. Other then making it softer I don't think you changed its characteristics at all. The 240 CEBs that I shoot sabotless in 40cals don't really fit a sabot that well. I never tried shooting them with sabots in a 45.
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Post by rangeball on Dec 16, 2016 15:38:45 GMT -5
The 240 CEBs that I shoot sabotless in 40cals don't really fit a sabot that well. I never tried shooting them with sabots in a 45. No they didn't, and don't waste your time trying them saboted, they just won't shoot. Version 2 had a great base fit, but other problems. Version 3 had potential, but the reverted on the base back to 1 for some reason and they blew
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 17:26:35 GMT -5
The 240 CEBs that I shoot sabotless in 40cals don't really fit a sabot that well. I never tried shooting them with sabots in a 45. No they didn't, and don't waste your time trying them saboted, they just won't shoot. Version 2 had a great base fit, but other problems. Version 3 had potential, but the reverted on the base back to 1 for some reason and they blew SW has the new ones apparantly made to shoot saboted. Maybe he can post a picture of one in a Harvester Crush Rib sabot.
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Post by rangeball on Dec 16, 2016 19:12:21 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see the base fit and how they do. I sent them sabots and flat base xtps and BXs and the v2 had a perfect fit but they were still nose heavy. We went with a secant profile for v3 to get them lighter and they reverted on the base for some unknown reason.
I have some of the v3s that Al modded the base on and shortened a bit. I really need to see if they'll shoot.
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Post by kennacl55 on Dec 16, 2016 21:25:18 GMT -5
The 240's I just got have a small groove near the bottom and 2 grooves up near the ogive. Which version would these be? I knurled them for a tight fit, and if they dont shoot well I will give them to a friend who has a 40cal.
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Post by rangeball on Dec 16, 2016 23:14:01 GMT -5
Must be the new version for sabots, I think longer shank shorter ogive and lower BC.
Version 1 that guys are shooting sabotless has no rings or grooves, unless Dan changed something.
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Post by lakeplainshunter on Dec 17, 2016 6:18:54 GMT -5
They have a much larger diameter and deeper hollow point than rangeball's version. This nose profile looks very similar. I will try to measure them next week to determine the differences.
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Post by foxgrape on Dec 17, 2016 12:59:02 GMT -5
I just got some of the "new" CEB 240' with the groves noted above. I have been shooting the "old" version Full Form in my RemPac with good success. Annealed.
The new ones are called MAXIMUS, and apparently are sold with and without sabots. I plan to anneal some of the new ones and shoot with same Full Form settings and same load as old to see how they do. (10/65 N110/Varget, dry wool wad, Fed 209A)
Notes on box:
"Barrel Twist = 1-24 or Faster"
"Ballistic Coefficient = .285 G1".
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Post by rangeball on Dec 17, 2016 13:15:22 GMT -5
If those shoot saboted with the same popular smokeless loads that will be a big leap in BC over the bx, sst and xtp.
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Post by foxgrape on Dec 17, 2016 13:28:17 GMT -5
Yeah. The BC is an attention getter.
The notes on my box of "old" 240's (I bought these in Nov 2015).
"Barrel Twist = 1-22"
"Ballistic Coefficient = .209"
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Post by rangeball on Dec 17, 2016 14:30:40 GMT -5
Will be interesting to see if the BC pans out. From looking at what I thought was the new version for sabots it looked like a longer shank and shorter nose, a combo for tanking BC. Maybe these are a new new version and they worked the bugs out. That BC is more in line with what I'd calculated we'd get by shortening the V1.
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Post by kennacl55 on Dec 17, 2016 14:37:01 GMT -5
My box has 1in24 twist or faster and a .285 BC G1.
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Post by rangeball on Dec 17, 2016 20:30:49 GMT -5
I looked at their site and they do have two .40s listed, the maximus and the lower BC one I saw previously called the raptor.
The higher BC V1 that wont shoot saboted is still not listed.
They have a typo on the OAL for the maximus, it shows .121. I assume they mean 1.21, which is where I wanted to go with a V4 but with a secant ogive at 224 gr that calculated at .3 BC.
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Post by rangeball on Dec 17, 2016 20:31:50 GMT -5
With the maximus are they recommending it be annealed?
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Post by kennacl55 on Dec 17, 2016 22:21:57 GMT -5
I measured mime (maximus 240's) (length=1.118) (base=.3985) (depth of hollow point .420 this measurement may not be exact) I dont have a comperator for this caliber to check base to ogive.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2016 22:45:46 GMT -5
I measured mime (maximus 240's) (length=1.118) (base=.3985) (depth of hollow point .420 this measurement may not be exact) I dont have a comperator for this caliber to check base to ogive. See if you can meet up with Guy to compare the two versions side by side. I know he has some.
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Post by leftydeadeye on Jan 1, 2017 22:56:36 GMT -5
Some do some don't, it probably depends on a lot of factors. Thin soft jackets pushed fast then most likely yes. Copper bullets or not too heavy of a load probably not. IMO, most sabots can't take the pressure needed for much obturation except with pure lead bullets. This is from a very old post of mine back in 2005. I was using RIGID sabots that have very little in common with most soft sabots! dougva.proboards.com/thread/2025/rate-twist-sabotsThis is the 8mm 150 grain bullets I was using along with a sabot: As promised, I have some pictures showing how much a 0.323 bullet can obturate upon firing if not secured in a rigid sabot. This first picture shows the recovered bullet and a pre-fired sabot. Notice how the bullet takes on a near mirror image shape of the sabot. This second picture shows the bullet base. If you look closely you can see where the bullet started flowing into the sabot petal cutouts ( 4 places ). This last picture shows how much the base expanded compared to an unfired bullet. The bullet is 0.447 at its widest point! edge.
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Post by leftydeadeye on Jan 1, 2017 22:59:28 GMT -5
Edge, Just curious.. How did that 8 mm , 150 shoot? I presume yoir custom sabot was to a .50 bore?
Thanks
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Post by edge on Jan 2, 2017 9:29:53 GMT -5
Edge, Just curious.. How did that 8 mm , 150 shoot? I presume yoir custom sabot was to a .50 bore? Thanks That expanded bullet was recovered from a buck in 2005, and was very accurate. The barrel was a Krieger .505 1:20 twist. After recovering that bullet it became obvious that I needed to move the petal shear point past the bullet base and all subsequent 4 petal sabots were made that way. Shortly thereafter I switched to a 45 1:14 twist and was able to move up to better BC bullets such as the 200 grain 8mm Sierra Match King and 150 grain 30 caliber Nosler Accubond. This one happens to be a .338 Accubond in a .458 1:14 twist sabot cutaway:
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Post by sw on Jan 2, 2017 10:10:14 GMT -5
I could not get version 1 to shoot saboted. . This was a couple of years ago. I got a few 165s and 240 Maximus. Annealed some of each. The 240s shot great out of my 40 PacNor: 10/50 VV-110/2015. Of course, the sabotless shooting was done with annealed bullets only. In the 26" 45 cal PacNor , using a gentle load of 10/45 VV-110/H-4198, CR HLB, 45 cal WW, I shot both annealed and non-annealed 240 Maximus (2460-2469'/sec) . The non-annealed keyholed. The annealed seemed to do well. I was running out of daylight. These shot well out of both of the tried 45s. Rushed shooting but Appx 1" 3-shot 100 yds. Non-annealed didn't even hit the targets. Only shot the 165s in a converted HR. Set up for grandson. CR HLB, lightly knurled(as were the 240s also), no WW, annealed and not - made no difference in accuracy. Used VV-110 , 31g, 2244'/sec <1" 3-shot groups. Very accurate. No telling what it'll do in a well set up rifle. The HR had only a 4x Weaver K-4, rough trigger, short, youth stock, all 3 shots W/I 5 minutes. Shot 3 different 3-shot groups. All unbelievably accurate. I'll do a lot more shooting with both bullets. Think I'm a CEB convert.
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Post by foxgrape on Jan 2, 2017 12:02:32 GMT -5
Think I am joining the CEB 240 fan club too.
RemPac 392/400, Full Form, Dry Wool Wad, 10/65 N110/VARGET, "Old CEB 240 version", Annealed, Fed 209A
Friday shot big doe at 90 yards. High shoulder shot/broadside. .400 entry hole and about 1 inch exit (straight through/no deflection).
No pictures of internal exam, but I have been shooting SST 200 for last two years with same load as noted above.
The CEB 240 literally "knocked doe off her feet". Bang-flop.
There was a lot of internal damage/bone fragmentation, but compared to several dozen past SST hits I would not call the CEB shot "explosive" or "grenade like". The damage seemed to be focused along the bullets "straight path", rather than radiating outward and blowing up(if that makes sense).
I guess I would say it "hit hard". The geometry of the straight pass through, coupled with the size of entry/exit holes seems to indicate the advertised design to have the solid base retain its integrity seems to have worked as planned. The internal damage also reflects significant expansion/pedal flaring, so based on this ONE case it seems to be a winner. Obviously we need more performance reports, but so far I am impressed.
I have some of the "new" MAXIMUS version CEB annealed and ready to test, but not going to mess with current set up until after final gun season next week-end. (I have some crop damage tags to fill (after the regular season), so hope to do some hair testing with the MAXIMUMS too)
PS: Picked up a jug of 2015 sw's been shooting and will be fun to give that a go too. Think my 65gr VARGET pretty "hot", so will be interested to set up chrono to compare.
Tinkering is why we do this...RIGHT? HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
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Post by sw on Jan 2, 2017 12:32:34 GMT -5
My 3 favorite powders for MLing have been VV-110, 2015 and H/IMR 4198. Various combinations and singles of each have done well in the right applications. Varget is a wonderful powder, IMO . 26.4g/60g0.224 bullets(Vmax and Partion) in my Sav 223 are awesome. I've thought it would do great, appropriately used, in the 40 with the 240g Raptor &/or Maximus. I don't yet know that"appropriately used" part. But will.
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Post by Dave W on Jan 2, 2017 20:52:44 GMT -5
Think I am joining the CEB 240 fan club too. RemPac 392/400, Full Form, Dry Wool Wad, 10/65 N110/VARGET, "Old CEB 240 version", Annealed, Fed 209A Friday shot big doe at 90 yards. High shoulder shot/broadside. .400 entry hole and about 1 inch exit (straight through/no deflection). No pictures of internal exam, but I have been shooting SST 200 for last two years with same load as noted above. The CEB 240 literally "knocked doe off her feet". Bang-flop. There was a lot of internal damage/bone fragmentation, but compared to several dozen past SST hits I would not call the CEB shot "explosive" or "grenade like". The damage seemed to be focused along the bullets "straight path", rather than radiating outward and blowing up(if that makes sense). I guess I would say it "hit hard". The geometry of the straight pass through, coupled with the size of entry/exit holes seems to indicate the advertised design to have the solid base retain its integrity seems to have worked as planned. The internal damage also reflects significant expansion/pedal flaring, so based on this ONE case it seems to be a winner. Obviously we need more performance reports, but so far I am impressed. I have some of the "new" MAXIMUS version CEB annealed and ready to test, but not going to mess with current set up until after final gun season next week-end. (I have some crop damage tags to fill (after the regular season), so hope to do some hair testing with the MAXIMUMS too) PS: Picked up a jug of 2015 sw's been shooting and will be fun to give that a go too. Think my 65gr VARGET pretty "hot", so will be interested to set up chrono to compare. Tinkering is why we do this...RIGHT? HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! Velocity on the 10/65? Congrats, those CEBs are looking very good for the 40 cal shooters.
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