Rem 700 UML conversion

[jp8775]

I am not running full bore bullets I said: If you are shooting sabots as I am now, do you brush after each shot or how often? I have about 75 Remington sabots (aero tips) Getting 4-5" groups at 2-300 yards. Plenty good for me. But sabots dirty up the barrel with residue. Should I brush after each round?

[jp8775]

I am shooting sabots and 777 and thats what I will shoot until I have shot all of them up (75). I get 3-4 " groups at 2-300 yards plenty good for me. Stock breach plug. I have 3 spares now paid $60 total and got 100 cases loaded with the plugs in on the deal. I cant see modifying a gun that exceeds my needs as it comes? But it seems most everyone on this site has modified their gun and just keep telling me to spend hundreds of dollars. The breach plugs as I have researched only fails prematurely if you use BH 209? Breach plugs fail right? If not why are they on the shelves of every gun store I go to in the muzzle loading dept.? I see every brand of gun has replacement breach plugs for sale? I have talked to several UML owners using 4 777 and stock set up and are on their original breach plug? It seems that for the most part Black horn 209 is the problem. 4" groups at 300 yards is amazing and I cannot see ever needing more. Also is it really safe? How much stopping power do you have at the yardage with a muzzle loader? And even more are really going to get a good shot? At past 300 yards is the average shooter free hand or resting on a tree branch going to get a heart lung shot? Seems to me if you are a target shooter modifying you UML with hundreds of dollars of new barrels, breach plugs and so on makes sense. But I as a new Muzzle loader was almost ready to bail on ML because it seemed you need to spend so much as the stock guns apparently suck so bad. I have a .338 lapua. I have $3000 all in scope and all. A 3" group at 300 yards pleases me wind and all. I can kill a deer at 300 yards easily with that group. Am I missing it or is there a stock gun thread some where on this blog for the new guy?

[encore50a]

I can assure you, there are very few shooters that have shot more from an Ultimate than myself.   I've shot at minimum 5 CASES....... not boxes, of T7 pellets through those rifles each summer for six years.

If you're shooting T7............. swab the barrel between rounds.    One patch, ever so slightly damp, with Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine.   Patch in and out, turn it over, patch in and out, follow with a dry patch in and out.

The reason others upgrade the ignition system is because of the PP head space of the OEM system.   Not only is the head space an issue, the brass primer carriers are also a PP system.  The head thickness on those brass primer carriers can vary in thickness up to .020".   It is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve proper head spacing with that brass.
What ends up happening over time is that the nipple on the breech plug gas cuts and requires replacement.   There you go again, a "standard" breech plug replacement to fix a PP ignition system.   If you don't shoot it often, it'll last.


Perfect example.  The length of the case does nothing but center it on the nipple when closing the bolt.   The OAL has nothing to do with head space.

Proper head space is created when the brass case is seated tightly to the nipple.   With the OEM ignition system being a "standard", its improbable to expect a perfect seal.   Then on top of that, if the case head thickness varies up to .020", its the second contributing factor to improper head spacing.
The Arrowhead replacement ignition system completely eliminates all these contributing factors.






Keep an eye on the inside of your brass....






This target was shot using 3-T7M pellets (180grs)

[jp8775]

Wow thanks, is there a way say with perfusion blue or some die one can find what cases one has are the best? Or a way to do a head space check? You groups are amazing. I plan to hunt and just have fun with my gun. Also were the people burning up breach plugs shooting 777 or BH 209? SO butches bore shine does clean sabot residue? 

[encore50a]

Feb 19, 2021 20:08:16 GMT -5 jp8775 said:

Wow thanks, is there a way say with perfusion blue or some die one can find what cases one has are the best? Or a way to do a head space check? You groups are amazing. I plan to hunt and just have fun with my gun. Also were the people burning up breach plugs shooting 777 or BH 209? SO butches bore shine does clean sabot residue? 

One can measure the head thickness of each case and choose the thickest and eliminate those which are to thin.   Its just work that in reality shouldn't have to be done.   The actual UF rifle uses Starline brass, which is a world better, but still can vary in head thickness by .005".

Its imperative that every time you fire a primer carrier (brass case) that you inspect the inside.  Every case fired, no matter how many times, should look like the case in the photo above labeled "once fired".   Any case that shows any gas leaking inside should be immediately thrown out.

Here's the deal on breech plugs............  Remington did two things different with their breech plugs than the original company, Ultimate Firearms Inc.    They changed the thread pitch and made the breech plug harder.   The change to a harder breech plug was to help lengthen the time before a breech plug gas cut.   It lasts a little longer than the UF original.

I went through three (3) breech plugs in a BP Xpress using ONLY T7.    Most will say that the nitrocellulose properties of BH209  creates a quicker gas cutting of either the RUM or UF breech plugs.   I have a tendency to believe that but, PP head spacing IMO is the biggest contributing factor.


Here's what a gas cutting looks like on the breech plug nipple.   This is no good and must be replaced.





There is no sabot residue to worry about.    Swab between shots and you can use it to clean the rifle also.    No that the RUM breech plug is removable, where as the UF breech plug is not.  You can clean the barrel spotless with just 5 or 6 patches.

[encore50a]

Feb 19, 2021 20:08:16 GMT -5 jp8775 said:

Wow thanks, is there a way say with perfusion blue or some die one can find what cases one has are the best? Or a way to do a head space check?...........

Ok, there is a way but its a flat out pain in the ask and labor intensive.   PERIOD.

One can inspect and measure the cases to find the THINNEST head case.   After you find that case, trim the OAL case length down .015"  and this now becomes your PILOT case.

Then you need a smith to set the barrel back and set the head space using your PILOT case.  The bolt should close snuggly on your pilot case.

Ok, now you have a crap load of other cases that you can't close the bolt on, because of the thicker heads.   Now you take all those other cases and trim them to the identical OAL of your pilot case.  Once the OAL is set for each case, now you take an inside case reamer and set the depth to your PILOT case.
Once those processes are complete, you ream the inside flash hole to the exact depth of your PILOT case.    Now you have identical brass primer carriers that have perfect head spacing.

TRY THAT WITH 2K PIECES OF BRASS!




The way to fix ALL these issues, is to replace the OEM ignition system with the Arrowhead replacement.   Once completed, you're done.  No more worrying.
But..... if all you want to do is shoot your rifle a few times each year, the OEM should last awhile.

[jp8775]

You are a ton of help. this is what I was looking for. I have the equipment to measure the cases digitally. I will. Has anyone tried tig welding the cuts? That would take me 5 min. in my garage. Seems like there would be little danger. Also maybe putting a bead of something really hard around the nipple? One could make a tool to cut the shape and just measure the OAl and good to go. What are the cases made from? Look like short .308 cases. I have 5 gallon buckets of once fired .308 federal cases from range training. I have real big hands, I need XXXl gloves hard to find. Fumbling with primers is not something I like to do. Even in the arrow head holder looks troublesome for me. I like the whole case theory that was what actually got me into muzzled gun in the first place. I was told in a few months Remington will be making guns again with the new company and my sales person was told UML will be back soon. They sold a ton of them. I am a dealer and also love and own a lot of machine guns. joe

[jp8775]

I have hundreds of OE Remington uml cases, I am going to start by sorting pout just the tight ones. I will also after I de prime and tumble brass test it to see if it is getting lose. Seems like this would be a good start.

[encore50a]

Remington used the 308 where UF used the 45Win mag brass.

Some of the builders that are certainly reading this post will be better to answer about welding anything.

Personally and for the overall cost to benefits, I went first with the Arrowhead replacement system for the UF, then got tired of always working my ask off to shoot tiny groups at range and went to a custom 45cal.    Used only the action from the UF.

There are a couple FB pages dedicated to the RUM and UF and conversion rifles.

[jp8775]

What is the UF verses the uml?

[encore50a]

Feb 20, 2021 8:40:43 GMT -5 jp8775 said:

What is the UF verses the uml?

UF................  Ultimate Firearms Inc.    UF is the daddy of the RUM.   Ken Johnston is the original inventor of the ignition system.   The flagship for UF is the BP Xpress.

UML or RUM..............  Remington purchased the rights to the ignition system from Ken Johnston and Ultimate Firearms Inc.   Remington changed the thread pitch and hardened the breech plug so that it could be removed by the owner.   Remington had the opportunity to use Lothar Walther barrels but chose to use their own.

[jp8775]

Is there a muzzle break that installs on the RUN with out threading the barrel? Set screws? I have a spare barrel I could send top some one to thread it also.

[jp8775]

I see that the Ultimate muzzle loaders use the case system that every one says fails? Did they come up with a solution to still use the cases like Remington did?

[encore50a]

Feb 24, 2021 8:46:27 GMT -5 jp8775 said:

Is there a muzzle break that installs on the RUN with out threading the barrel? Set screws? I have a spare barrel I could send top some one to thread it also.

Best brake is the LR Customs brake.   

lrcustomsinc.com/t/muzzleloader-brakes

[encore50a]

Feb 24, 2021 11:38:22 GMT -5 jp8775 said:

I see that the Ultimate muzzle loaders use the case system that every one says fails? Did they come up with a solution to still use the cases like Remington did?

Ultimate Firearms still uses the Starline 45Win Mag case.

Neither UF or Remington have solved the head space problems.   You CAN'T when case head thickness varies .020" like the RUM cases.   The Starline brass, top quality, still varies .005" in head thickness.

The ONLY true fix, is the Arrowhead system.

[jp8775]

LR custom discontinued muzzle loader breaks it looks like.

[jp8775]

Sorry I was wrong, just the .45 is discontinued. Anyone know a good place to thread a barrel?

[jp8775]

Me again sorry, do you have to have two breaks one for saboted and one for not? This what they said The bore diameters change for best efficiency. The saboted brake is less efficient than the non saboted brake mostly due to bore diameter. What does that mean? Smaller bigger  and why? Has anyone ran a muzzel break designed for a non saboted buttlet with a saboted one? 

[encore50a]

Feb 24, 2021 13:12:48 GMT -5 jp8775 said:

Me again sorry, do you have to have two breaks one for saboted and one for not?

LR Customs discontinued the brakes for the Paramount.   He is still making brakes, IMO, the best.   I run one and many on the FB UF and RUM sites also.

You can shoot sabots through the brake, although you'll find most are switching to bullet to bore and Fury Universal bullets.

FULL CHARGE.......... NO WEIGHT ON THE SLED.

[jp8775]

I am going to do my own threading of my muzzle loader. I found a supplier for all the cutters threaders and pilots. Watch this video

[ET]

Feb 25, 2021 11:48:18 GMT -5 jp8775 said:

I am going to do my own threading of my muzzle loader. I found a supplier for all the cutters threaders and pilots. Watch this video

I look forward to following your endeavor with this project.
A few pics would be nice, hint hint, chuckle.

[jp8775]

Nice thing about this is I have a dozen guns I would like to put a silencer on, I have a silencer on most of my hunting guns as they came with a muzzle break from factory. But some of my older guns did not. I have become addicted to silencers. So I will become real good at this. The big expense is the tools needed to do it. But I have so many guns to do it will be cost effective. Question: Has anyone heard that there is a reason you cannot put a silencer on a muzzle loader using 777 or 209? Rifle silencers do not come apart for cleaning as you usually do not need to clean them but thats with smokeless. But you can soak a suppressor in simple green and rinse it out. Any one have knowledge of this subject. See suppressors act as a break as well as a suppressor. I have them on all my machine guns. After I get good at the threading (I should with as many as I am going to do of my guns) I may do it for others.

[jp8775]

I got one of these, wow quality is awesome. I am using this along with the Thor barrel sizer bullet package to determine the barrel size. I compete in 50 BMG sniper matches at 1000 yards. Took as high as 4th place. Sizing the bullets to make them the same as well as the right size for your gun is really important. I size the bullets 4 times turning them 1/4 each time. I have a Radar chronograph mylabradar.com/product/chronograph/ it reads the speed of the bullet every 25 feet to the target. G7 I have seen the difference by sizing. SO if you are always looking for a way to piss away money as I am size your bullets.
hanksprecisiongunparts.com/p/smooth-bullet-sizing-die-complete-kit

[jp8775]

So do not worry about plastic from sabots?

[ET]

Thanks for taking the time to update us.

[jp8775]

I am sizing the bullets to match the barrel when using belted or fmj w/o sabots. Still looking for bulk or cheaper 250 gn bullets to target shoot. Most 250 .500 bullets are about a buck a piece. Would like to go target shooting and load work ups with a chronograph but less than a $1 a shot. hanksprecisiongunparts.com/p/smooth-bullet-sizing-die-complete-kit

[71yella]

That seems ok for just a brake but i wouldn't use that for any suppressor to be mounted, it needs to be chucked in a large and centered on the bore. I used a jam nut behind a brake/suppressor mount on a 300 blk, and had light baffle strikes, bullets key holing. Chucked barrel in large and started checking run out of every piece, turned to be face of the nut. Took it out and used crush washer and everything lined up, then my sub loads stop key holing and printed nice round boolit holes.