Bigger game with MZ bullet advice?

[rimcountry]

My little guy has a Bison hunt comming up. His first big game hunt too.
He will most likely be using my Savage 10ml2
We can't use modern powder ;( has to be BP or legal substitute.
We are going to try the Blackhorn 209 tomorrow out of it.

I had him shooting conicals and pyrodex to get feel for loading and shooting a MZ. I have only ever used XTP's and sr4759 for as long as I have had it.

All the don't use this and that from various manufactures or resellers is confusing. As some of its exact opposite the other person has said. Realistically we need to be a one shot and down. He's pretty good with his shot placement. He will be shooting from some type of tripod or similar since sounds like ground blind is going to be best option For the hunt. I just need to figure out what's affordable, and will be usable down the road.

I have read a lot of great things about the Barnes orginal 300 grain .458 Bullet but no one has any in stock. I have looked in small stores, emailed some of smaller online companies and nada. . It looks like Barnes won't be starting their next run till after our hunt has started. I really wanted to test them out as seemed one of most promising options.

I ordered some 300 Grain Scorprion Pt's to try out as well. They sound promising with the harder lead core but at this point I have no real experience with them.

I am nixing a hard cast lead bullet (bought some of the 330 grain harvester's) as I think making sure we get enough expansion will be diffence between dropping immediately or not if shot placement isn't spot on.

I know Barnes speaks very highly of their solid MZ copper bullets. Has anyone experience with them on Elk or other big animals. G&F gave me the MZ expanders? And I picked up the non ballistic tip long range Batnes Mz spitfire? to try out of my old T/c Thunderhawk as a I think my buddy is using it. I know too long of a bullet in that rifle and accuracy will be an issue. If he doesn't we will have it with us for him to be able to take a quick second shot. I know the herd will surround injured Bison pretty quickly from what we were told.

The expanders worry me if he hits the joint as expansion would be too much form look of the design. . I want to make sure in that event he hits bone the bullet is smashing through and going beyond.

Looking for who has experience om bigger game with a MZ and can offer advice. Def feel out of my league.
Thanks

[pposey]

I usta shoot 300 grain speer flat points out of my ML2 .50 cal, they would go through a deer stem to stern, they were actually a .451 bullet but lightly knurled they worked well, a 300 grain partition would also be a mean bullet if you could get it to shoot well.

in a .45 barrel the 195 barnes would do the job, they are the only barnes bullets I have ever used though

I think I may have some of them lying around somewhere if you are interested

www.midwayusa.com/product/557475/speer-bullets-45-colt-long-colt-451-diameter-300-grain-jacketed-soft-point-box-of-50

[ronlaughlin]

First of all, i have never ever killed anything bigger than a deer with my muzzle loader. Many elk i have killed with a center fire. This past year has found me catching many different bullets in the same exact trap, and i have witnessed many different results.

Me, i don't believe the PT is a good choice for smashing through bone.

My first choice of bullets currently available is the Swift A-frame. Bullets that i believe would do an excellent job include the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator, Lehigh Controlled Fracturing, 350g Federal Premium, 265g Hornady Interlock, and perhaps the 300g XTP Magnum. The 350g Speer Hot-Cor, or the 350g Hornady FP may work good.

A bullet no longer available i absolutely know would penetrate, is the 300g 45 caliber Partition. These i would consider selling to your son for a good fair price, but i won't part with them to any one else.

This past year has found me catching many different bullets in the same exact trap, and i have witnessed many many different results.

[hunter]

rimcountry
I am sending a pm regarding the barnes originals

[hunter]

If you need some barnes originals I have plenyt of the .458 300gr sem-sp sp bullets if you need some.
Send me a pm if interested

[rimcountry]

Directly from Nosler, not their bullets for Bison wIth an MZ (they are pistol bullets and stay away from what would be specifically a pistol bullet). Swift never responded to my e-mail.
The scorpion PT golds sound good on paper. Savage shot great with them today. My son amazed me. He's getting the hang of it. I am going to cut one open and see how hard lead really is. Plus we are going to shoot into a few things where they can be recovered, distance penetrated measured then get examined along with whatver else gets tested.

We will literally be hunting on the border of a national park. We were told that the more recent agreement to recover off Park Service property can change at any moment and go back to no game recovery allowed period. Or whoever is working from one person to next could say no. Ie don't expect to be able to recover it.
Why I am asking about actual experience. I've got loads of deer experience with an MZ. But Ive also seen rifle bullets, slugs etc fail miserably when Murphey's law gets tossed in the mix. Why I have always stayed with what worked unless I couldn't get it anymore. Then put the new whatver through the paces before hunting with it. But not taking about a 160- 200lb deer. We are looking at 800-1000lbs range and need it anchor it to where it was shot
Thanks for the input.

[ronlaughlin]

None of the revolver bullets Nosler makes today would be suitable for Bison. The partition, not in production these days, is a different animal. The partition bullet will penetrate deeper than the PT Gold. The Swift will penetrate deeper than the PT Gold. The PT Gold is just a simple bullet; lead with a thin coat of copper. The Barnes Original is a way way stouter than the PT Gold, as are the 0.458 bullets from Hornady, or Speer.

[bestill]

Kinetic Performance has a mbomb which is all copper which will definitely do the trick with proper shot placement.

Also Barnes290 tez is a devastating bullet again with proper shot placement.

[rossman40]

I may be wrong but your thinking .452 pistol bullets. Step up to .458 and get rifle bullets.

If your needing to "pin" the animal to the ground that requires a shoulder shot, a brain shot, or a spine hit. A broadside brain shot is tough because the bullet will easily ricochet off the skull and a spin hit is also tough. So your wanting to bust up at least one shoulder. One guy said he used a 300WM and his first shot put a nice neat hole thru both shoulder blades and the animal ran off. Ended up chasing it down and put 2 more rounds in it. For a good pin shot on a bison's shoulder your aiming for a joint and the good thing is the spinal cord could be right behind it. If you time your shot with the leg forward and head slightly down the joint on the shoulder blade and the spine lines up on a broadside shot. You could use about anything for a lung or heart shot but your needing a bone crusher and a PT Gold sure isn't one. Like Ron said the PT Gold is a plated bullet, made by Rainier IIRC, with the "jacket" being only .008" thick, it might work on a heart shot. You also want to think flat point over hollow point and bullets with the plastic tip to get fast expansion like the SST or FTX should be avoided.

I have to agree with Ron on the Partitions. The Nosler Partition IMO, was one of the most awesome bullets ever made. While the Swift A-Frame has the same type "H" construction the nose or forward sections were different. The Partition is not a bonded bullet and had the nose section which was designed to mushroom on soft tissue but if it hit bone the nose section would break apart and your left with FMJ like rear section that was over 2/3 of the original bullet weight. The Partition would out penetrate any comparable bullet made at the time (including Barnes).

The Swift A-Frame is a awesome bullet also. Unlike the Partition it is a bonded bullet so the nose section will stay together. The 350gr .458 flat point is a favorite in the 45-70 guide guns for grizzly bear. The drawback is to get maximum effect you want a impact speed of around 1800fps so your MV should be around 2200fps for a shot out to 100yds, it is going to hurt on both ends. Another thing is with thicker jackets the bullets do not oburate well so you loose some accuracy. Then with the Partition and the A-frame they are a "open base" bullet which seems to hinder accuracy also.

The Barnes Originals are decent, both the 300gr flat point and semi spitzer are options. As far as monos the 300 or 350gr flat base TSXs might do (the pointy ones). They might give you some more range due to the higher BC. With the Barnes monos when they hit bone the petals break off.

The Hornady .458 300 and 350gr have pretty thin jackets (.015) and I would take the .452 300gr XTP Mag over them. The 300gr XTP Mag is tough to get to open up even at SML speed so it might work as a bone crusher. Another option from Hornady might be the .475 325gr XTP Mag. I recently sent some .475 Harvester sabots to a guy who was wanting to try them for a bear hunting load in a .50 10ML.

From Speer the 350gr Hot-Cor FP would be my choice. Thin jacket but since it is bonded it should stay together.

Probly the most experienced person on the board for big bullets on big game with a ML would be Bigmoose, I think Jeff also has bagged a few, you might PM them for their input. I think Slugger or 78riverrat bagged one recently but I think that was with a CF.

Whatever you do keep us posted, we can all learn from your experience.

[GMB54-120]

I thought the Speer 458 350gr Hot-Cor was bonded too but expansion pics ive see appear they are not.

This was from Rons jug testing and only 80gr of BH209.


I do believe the Speer 458 300gr is bonded and based on the Uni-Cor design. Speers cheaper 451 300gr Uni-Cor is very tough.

Same load and same media. Also thanks to Ron. IIRC retained weight was about 297gr.

[wilmsmeyer]

Rossman made many good points. These are big animals and bang flops will be tough. With anything big you have to break them down and also hit some vitals at the same time like rossman said. Penetration is what you need with energy. No shortcuts here and recoil will be your enemy. Maybe a 400gr Barnes buster as fast as can be handled. Even then you need calm surgical placement and a cool head and an anatomical understanding of the animal being dispatched. Even this load on a bison is like a 22 short on a chipmunck. Guts or lungs/liver and you will have a chase. Hope it works out and looking forward to the reports.

[edge]

I might offer a different point of view.

If I had a double I would certainly go for a mobility shot first ( crippling but not mortal ), because I have an instant backup shot!
With a ML it is a great crippling shot followed by a minute then the coup de grace...if all goes well.

OR

You make a mortal but not instantaneous shot, like a bow hunter, and hope that he has not been too spooked and ran more than 30 seconds, you sneak to within range and fire the coup de grace.

I am glad that it is you to make that decision and not me.
No matter the game, not matter the weapon I aim for the heart and take my chances.

If this were a Water Buffalo, Rhino, Elephant, etc the mobility shot is a no brainer as a miss and my guide hopefully will fire his .416 until he is out of ammo or one or both of us are stomped into dirt!

IMO, Bison is not that animal so the most humane kill I would say is the best, even if it means you need to do a bit of tracking.
Remember the 45-70 all but wiped these animals off of the planet!

edge.

[GMB54-120]

You could always try the simple route.

460gr NoExuses conical and 80-90gr of Blackhorn209. That load is a near duplicate of a 50-70 or 50-90 Sharps.

I shoot my 45cal with upto 80gr and a 490gr. It thumps.

[rimcountry]

Heart is only option for a shot. Too close to National Park border i.e. no weapons allowed period and no gurantee that will have permission to recover if did go onto Park Property. Will not be allowed to dispatch on park property if that situation happened.

Follow up shots if we are hunting a water hole or salt licks aren't common. It's supposed to be thick country and the herd will generally surround an injured Bison versus run off. G&F say heart shots period. I couldn't get a confirmation on what type of MZ bullets were most common or results though. Be interesting to see if they would be willing to collect that data in their mandatory exit interviews.

A member has offered to sell me some 300 grain Barnes orginals. So we will be able to use those. I know that's what Barnes recommended. I was going to try and find some of the 400 grain Busters but Barnes rep talked me into wanting the Originals. Of course their next production run is after our hunt. I have looked just about everywhere. Even called some smaller stores where I knew they had new old stock of various manufactures. But none had anything tough enough and no Orginals .
Thank you.

But hopefully in a few days we will have some Orginals in hands.

Recoil is pretty stiff right now with a 300 grain bullet and the Blackhorn. My ten year old is being tough but I also know he's right at his limit of max recoil. If mama gives go ahead going to order a grind to fit limb saver recoil pad. But between the tags, scope, bullets, etc it's been an expensive few weeks. Plus found out I can't use the standard Harvesters in my Savage so that was another order for their Savage "red" Harvesters. I have only used the MMP's. I wanted to make sure we aren't loosing any accuracy because there was a better option. Think I wasted so money there and should have stuck with MMP's. Some of info I didn't have when I posted. We just got our hunter packets..

Thanks.

[7mmfreak]

When is your hunt?

[GMB54-120]

A 458 and the red Harvester will be brutal if not impossible to load. You want to use either a MMP Orange or a Harvester Black crushrib with those 458s.

[tar12]

Aug 10, 2016 9:40:24 GMT -5 GMB54-120 said:

A 458 and the red Harvester will be brutal if not impossible to load. You want to use either a MMP Orange or a Harvester Black crushrib with those 458s.

What he said! I shot hundreds of the originals and these are the only 2 to use with the .458s

[10ga]

Check out the Lehigh Defense bullets. They should be a very good option for bone crunching and doing the deed as you need it done. I haven't tried them but if I can get the accuracy they will be my bullet for my bear hunt this year. 10 see link

lehigh-defense.myshopify.com/pages/xtreme-penetrator

PS. what tar12 said about 458 bullets, the orange smooth or black crush rib are the only ones that you can load a 458

Good luck with the hunt, wanna see lots pictures.