finally had enough of savage ML II factory rifle

[mooseman100]

Well after 7-8 years and a couple of rifles I am tired of messing with the problems that seem inherent with the factory rifles.  6 of us hunt 1400 acre farm here in VA that only allows archery and ml.  So that gives us 8-9 weeks of hunting season to use them each year and I normally kill a buck and 10-12 doe each year.  So in my mind that justifies spending  whatever needed to get a rifle that works consistently.  One caveat is that we can only use 100% copper bullets, no lead at all allowed, so Parker are out.  We used to use them and all loved them, but the owner is afraid if we loose a shot deeper and a hawk eats the dead deer it could get lead poisoning!  I am serious, so just laugh and call it crazy, but that is what we have to work with.  For that amount of land that  produces 140-155 class bucks every year, you just work with it!!

Problems that I have always had with the savage, as I said it is completely stock
1) When using VHIT N 120, sometimes I would get a charge that would not fire, switching to 5744 which apparently is easier to ignite, that problem is now solved, albeit I probably lost some velocity.
2) Consistency issues.  Last year rifle shot well, this year same loads same bullet batch same cleaning process rifle will not group inside 2 1/2".  Have had those problems in past years.  Have had issues with 3 different rifles, using different loads and bullets.
3) Bolt handle closes tight sometimes and not other times
4) One bullet will slide in easy with the not a lot of pressure, another time the bullet takes a lot more pressure to push in. Use map black sabot and barnes TEZ 290 grain
Basically I have no confidence in this weapon at this point.  Have killed a boat load of deer with it, but had misses and no fires that should not have happened..

So, Having said all of that, I am looking for new options.  For sure no more sabots of any type ever and for sure must be smokeless.  Other questions arise about LRM primer systems or 209.  Arguments seem to be along the line of chevy, ford, or dodge, I can understand both sides.  Question is do I go with a complete build from a custom guy for 3-4K or do a rebuild off this savage or some other action.  I will not be using this weapon for 400 yd shots, this is a tree stand and eastern woodland rifle, most states out west that I would want to hunt seem to be not so friendly to smokeless mzldrs.  I am open to ideas and am ready to spend the money needed to get something that will work more regularly than my current factory set up.

Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.  I did just read thru the thread started a while back about wanting a new gun, very informative.

Brent
 

[rangeball]

Brent, not trying to talk you out of a new rifle, but have you tried 42gr of N110 under an all copper full bore .50 Thor? I set a buddy's rifle up like this this fall, used AA5744 but couldn't get it to group, switched to N110 (had to give him some of my dwindling stock, can't find it anywhere) and it's sub-moa. For your stated use, it would certainly be worth a try.

[mooseman100]

I was not able to get any bullets from Thor this past year as apparently he had a great idea and sold out.  Disappointed that I could get no call back or email reply regarding his products though, kind of tainted me a bit, not saying I am done, just disappointed.  I have used and still have some N110, that I used under barnes expanders 250 grain.  Still have had same inconsistent issues.  
Thanks for the reply

[smokeeter]

Might as well utilize what you already have and go from there. Your savage is great choice to work off of and with all of the parts for a build now being sold why don't you look into putting a .45 cal barrel and the new arrowhead BP. If your limited to all copper you might as well get a FF die made and you'll be all set. I found the solid copper and heavily jacketed bullet worked better for me if the bullets were full formed rather than smooth.
Contact Luke and discuss it with him, I'm sure he'll be able to help you make a decision on what components to choose.

[jbm77]

Get ahold of Luke at Arrowhead. Cheap route order a .45 McGowen barrel. He had a few on sale for $300. You already have a savage breech plug. Take off stock barrel sell it , screw on new barrel......problem solved

[rangeball]

Dec 29, 2015 10:25:48 GMT -5 mooseman100 said:

I was not able to get any bullets from Thor this past year as apparently he had a great idea and sold out.  Disappointed that I could get no call back or email reply regarding his products though, kind of tainted me a bit, not saying I am done, just disappointed.  I have used and still have some N110, that I used under barnes expanders 250 grain.  Still have had same inconsistent issues.  
Thanks for the reply

Terry's a one man shop and I believe has a day job. He orders more bullets from Barnes every year but keeps selling out.

If you are set on a new barrel as the others have recommended, don't discount the 195bx in a smooth blue harvester. Perfect for what you are describing even though it uses a sabot, assuming it's legal where you are. 60-62gr of H4198 or a 10/50 duplex (I'll let others fill in the powder blanks as I don't recall off the top of my head) gets you a very reliable deer slaying load.

[billyboy]

+1 on trying the 250 Thor bullets and the N110. But unlike Rangeball I have had good accuracy success with AA5744, I think he has a tight custom Douglass barrel. Terry will have his Barnes shipment in March. If your rifle takes the .501" or .502" PM me and I could send you some to try. It is hard to beat the terminal performance of the all copper Thors. Also, have you installed the 3rd pillar and bedded your stock? This helped the consistency of my (2) ML-IIs tremendously.

[rangeball]

I never tried AA5744 in my SMI douglas .50, only the N110 which it loves.

The last gun I set up for a buddy is a bit looser at the breech and the thor needed the quick hit of the N110 to grab the rifling consistently for good grouping which the AA5744 didn't provide.

[dannoboone]

Not certain what he charges, but if I had $4K to spend on a
rifle, I'd give our ol' buddy Tom Post at Swinglock a call.
He makes very accurate, beautiful rifles and one of his
builds comes with needed dies.

But then, you would still be stuck with that 10MLII that
won't shoot when it could be shooting sub-MOA. Many of us
have converted our 10MLII's to do just that for less than
$1K by doing all or most of it ourselves.

If it were me, I'd start off by giving Luke a call and
order one of his barrels with his new breech plug and
replace the old recoil lug with a trued one....same with
the barrel nut. Get your stock bedded, which can be done
yourself if you read up on the correct methods. If yours
is the factory tupperware, I'd replace that, too. Boyds
has some beautiful stocks for a reasonable price, but
they do need pillared and bedded.

Barnes makes fantastic bullets for terminal performance,
but over the years, I have noticed they do not all come
the same exact diameter. That could account for the
difference in pressure to get the bullets down the
barrel in your rifle, as well as accuracy. When they get
sized for a .45 barrel, that solves most of that problem.

[Deleted]

Call me a stinker but I would dump the savage and pick up a 700ml, Luke had some 40cal barrels that if allowed by state would be the ticket in my opinion. Shoot the 195 Barnes or the 240ceb and you will never have a problem with accuracy or terminal performance.

[mooseman100]

Thanks for the quick replies.  I am for sure going to go new barrel , plug and some type of stock as a minimum.  I am defineltly NOT going to build it myself.  Wrong tools and skill set for that.  I do reload and have a couple presses so full or smooth forming is no problem.  I need something set up and pretty much a real good starting point on load.
I see a lot of folks on the board are into rebuilding or doing a 45/70 conversion.  I am not that guy, way too busy and not enough interest.  
I obvioulsy want to keep as much cash as I can in my pocket, I am not afraid to spend cash if it is worth it.  I do not see many folks here speaking about bad bulls, big dawg, or whoever else.. Is there a reason?  Are the conversions truly as good reliable and accurate?
Brent

[Deleted]

It's really simple to put a prefit barrel on a Savage. The hardest part is removing the factory barrel if the gorilla Savage employs did the install.

[Deleted]

Since he already has the savage muzzleloader isn't it the cheaper way to go for a build?

If it were me I'd put a shillen barrel on the savage, Luke's new arrowhead plug, and order a Boyds laminate stock. Bed the stock and possibly get a better trigger but that isn't completely necessary especially if this is more of a hunting rifle.

I like the Remington 700ml builds better myself only because of the way it looks, yeah I know stupid but I'm goofy like that. However unless there is any advantage to the Remington 700 vs the savage I'm not sure.

Good luck

[lakeplainshunter]

I would contact Luke at Arrowhead Sporting Goods to see what he has in Stock for .40 and .45 McGowen barrels. I have both .40 and .45 McGowen barrels that shoot the Barnes BX (.40) and T-EZs (.45) awesome smooth form. I only need to lightly knurl them to achieve the correct fit. I would use 209 Primers. The ASG breechplug is better than the Savage, but the Savage design has worked well for many. I would get the Stock of your choice from Boyds. Luke, Cole, Richard, and many others to numerous to name can put it together for you. Have fun with your build.

[eml9]

Another option, sell your Savage and keep an eye on the buy sell section here on the board? Theres often fair priced lightly used builds up for sale. I personally would never consider spending 3-4 grand from any of the many custom sml builders. For much less you could have one built by a builder on this site for wayyy less and shoot just as good.jmo. If I were to have another one built (which will be sooner than later ) it would be a .45 McRem,Lukes plug,timney trigger and a boyds thumbhole stock. I have .45 mcrem now, moa with barnes 250 tez h4198/red dot out to 300 yards.

[huntbrownwater]

Luke at Arrowhead will help ya!! He's a good guy!

[edk]

40cal is not legal in VA if I read the law correctly, the barrel must have a min 45call barrel but can shoot a sabotage in it with 40cal bullet make a lot of sense. I would start with the action you already have. What part of the state are you in? I have the stuff here to do the swap and wI'll help you with it. I'm just south of Richmond.

[ourway77]

Delaware has the same stupd law minimum 42 caliber Good Luck with your build. I had a Savage with the third pillar and never had a problem such as you described. Like previous said have one of the builders on this sight build one off your Savage action. Search the sight and see some of thier work. I can't wait to get my build. I got everything from Luke, stock from boyd's. Remington 700 ML action. Lou

[dannoboone]

I do not see many folks here speaking about bad bulls, big dawg, or whoever else.. Is there a reason? Are the conversions truly as good reliable and accurate?

Other than expensive, I haven't heard/read much about Big
Dawg. There have been some issues with the ignition system
with the Bad Bulls, making most of our conversions more
reliable, and arguably more accurate.

Hey stinker, you may have just blown an easy build
project!

[mooseman100]

Thank you guys so much for the replies, pm, and even phone calls. I appreciate you answering questions that have been asked 1000 times
Looks like I am going to land on a conversion of either rem ML or centerfire, basically which ever donor i find cheaper. I prefer center fire due to better wear points no little screw issues plus just stronger.
I know break open actions are cheaper and easier, but just really don't like them, no reason why, probably just looks
Will use Luke's breech plug. Will cerakote, durakote, melonite or whatever builder uses
Barrell probably 22-24". Again it will spend more time in a tree stand, so light and short is better, hopefully under 8-9 # with scope
So I will shoot heavier bullets, i use CEB raptors in all centerfire exculsively, nothing kills better. Brass may be a problem going thru swage die, so probably use ceb copper or barnes t ez. What twist should I look at in barrel?
Brent

[rangeball]

What caliber have you settled on?

[mooseman100]

Caliber size. Oops. 45 is minimum in VA so will gonwith that

[rangeball]

I would think 14-22 tr would do well, and if you are planning to shoot much heavier bullets I'd go to the faster end of the spectrum, but from a light build I doubt that.

Mine is the standard pacnor TR that Luke sells. I can never remember. 1:20? It stabilizes the 310gr APB at 2700 fps just fine.

[rick59]

Never had a problem with any of the stock 50 ML-ll I've owned or tuned for others and I've shot them since 2007, taken deer from 20 to 250 yds with mine. Never a misfire and group great.
If you plan to get rid of yours shoot me a pm, I may be interested in taking it off your hands since it's no good to you.

[10ga]

My brother shoots Thor bullets. He uses BH209. Great for here in eastern VA. I have MLII and use 5749 and 300 grain bullets. Haven't tried any Barnes but there should be something that will perform. Then going 45 is nice too. have couple of them but use SST and XTP. Switching barrels on the savage is easy. You will not regret going 45. 10

[Jon]

Just another opinion from one who can no longer hunt. The only thing I don't like about the savage is the barrel nut. That said the build I'm doing now is on a ML1 action but with out the barrel nut 1.250 in front of the recoil lug. Since I only shoot targets and like to push the limit I just like the extra insurance. Like said above Luke can help you with almost anything you want or need. One stop shopping is great with a honest and reliable person. And there are quite a few on the board that can help you with assembly if that is the way you want to go. If I'm not mistaken Luke also does assembly? Like was said above Tom Post at Swing Lock build's as far as I'm concerned the best SML. But there is wait time and it would probably be more than you require? If you do the build or have it built you can have it your way. Most of the custom builders stay with in their limits. Where as the people on the board will work with you as long as it is safe and functional. I don't think any of them will steer you wrong.

[mooseman100]

Awesome responses above, really appreciate everybody's input. I spoke with Tom at swing lock, he is 3 years out! So that isn't an option. Luke is currently in process of building up what I am looking for off a remington ML. Still not sure I will not build another off a CF action.
brent

[dans]

mooseman100 You may as well start out with what you perceive as the perfect gun for your application. Take your time. Talk to some gun builders. Pick everyone's brain. Look at pics of other builds. Make a list of all the features you want in "the perfect rifle for you" and contract one of the builders and have it made. You will never look back. But be warned these rifles are addicting and you can't build just one. Good Luck with your project and please post pics of your new build.

[10ga]

Dec 29, 2015 13:33:05 GMT -5 mooseman100 said:

I obvioulsy want to keep as much cash as I can in my pocket, I am not afraid to spend cash if it is worth it.  

I do not see many folks here speaking about bad bulls, big dawg, or whoever else.. Is there a reason?

They certainly build rifles that shoot. You had better be ready for sticker shock. Being a guy that wears mis matched camo, shoots a MLII that has been personally upgraded but is basically stock, and rarely shoots over 150 yds don't see the need for buying a 3.5K rifle when my 9C MLII will do the same thing for me. Now I don't punch paper much and most of my shooting is in the woods so that is me.




 Are the conversions truly as good reliable and accurate?
Brent

Yes Brent, the conversions built off reliable and quality actions, (not break actions with a bp in a 45-70 barrel) are every bit as good as any commercial build. the break action conversions are really good but not quite up to the standard for looong range shooting heavy loads. My Encore conversion is extremely accurate and dependable but I don't shoot hot 300 yard + loads in it. Just ask around and see what people like. Building a SML that gives bench rest quality accuracy at long range is not for the faint of heart or thin of wallet but if you want a hunting gun that is the best in camp it's not real hard to do. JMHO, 10 ga

[10ga]

Jan 9, 2016 10:52:37 GMT -5 dans said:

mooseman100 .... be warned these rifles are addicting and you can't build just one. Good Luck with your project and please post pics of your new build.

X2

10 ga