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Post by indyultra on Dec 13, 2015 11:14:28 GMT -5
Is the Remington ultimate breech plug too long of a breech plug for smokeless?
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Post by indyultra on Dec 13, 2015 11:37:56 GMT -5
Or something like this plug? Not sure who's it is.
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Post by Jon on Dec 13, 2015 12:22:56 GMT -5
That is one of Pete's plugs
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Post by indyultra on Dec 13, 2015 13:12:39 GMT -5
That's what I thought, the guy that posted the picture of just said it was some guy from PA
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 13:19:44 GMT -5
The ultimate plug may or may not be too long for a 45 SML. One thing for sure is that it doesn't have a bushing in it from the factory and I don't know of anyone that has tested the longevity of it in a smokeless gun. I don't doubt it could be safe to use the Remington version of the plug if installed well and a bushing was added but this is uncharted water.
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Post by indyultra on Dec 13, 2015 13:25:47 GMT -5
I've been shooting a Ken Johnston Ultimate for 10 years. 200gr of pyrodex. Well over 3000rds thru it. That plug is never been out of the gun. No bushing in that plug. I just don't understand the reasoning behind the bushing. Is smokeless that much harder on the plug then Pyrodex?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 13:32:16 GMT -5
What has the erosion on your flash hole been? It would take a lot of erosion for a pyrodex pellet to drop through
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Post by indyultra on Dec 13, 2015 13:35:22 GMT -5
I've got the barrel off the gun now when I get home I'll take a picture. Of the primer end. Like I said a plug has never been out of the gun . I'm not sure if I can even get it out
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Post by indyultra on Dec 13, 2015 14:12:40 GMT -5
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Post by indyultra on Dec 13, 2015 14:13:54 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 15:33:35 GMT -5
The Dave D plug you pictured was designed for smokeless and works quite well. There was an improved version made later that is easier for the do it yourself guys but the one you pictured is my favored design. As for the ultimate, I would definitely recommend against using your Johnston build with smokeless as he says it is not designed to do such. If you started from scratch the plug might have merit but there are better suited designs for the job when it comes to smokeless.
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Post by muznut on Dec 13, 2015 15:48:21 GMT -5
The ultimate plug may or may not be too long for a 45 SML. One thing for sure is that it doesn't have a bushing in it from the factory and I don't know of anyone that has tested the longevity of it in a smokeless gun. I don't doubt it could be safe to use the Remington version of the plug if installed well and a bushing was added but this is uncharted water. I like your honest answer instead of the same old song and dance that says never ever use smokeless with something that is designed for black powder.
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Post by encore50a on Dec 13, 2015 15:48:50 GMT -5
I've got the barrel off the gun now when I get home I'll take a picture. Of the primer end. Like I said a plug has never been out of the gun . I'm not sure if I can even get it out With 3,000 rounds through it, nope, you won't get the plug out and will most likely end up breaking it trying. Then you'll have to drill out the center of the plug and use a large ez-out to get the remainder of the threads out. Use plenty of oil drilling....... Your plug nipple looks great. Don't shoot smokeless from your Ultimate.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 16:42:28 GMT -5
The ultimate plug may or may not be too long for a 45 SML. One thing for sure is that it doesn't have a bushing in it from the factory and I don't know of anyone that has tested the longevity of it in a smokeless gun. I don't doubt it could be safe to use the Remington version of the plug if installed well and a bushing was added but this is uncharted water. I like your honest answer instead of the same old song and dance that says never ever use smokeless with something that is designed for black powder. The rifle as a whole definitely no smokeless without Ken's approval but we have modified priming systems to work with smokeless in the past. Everything of course deserves caution but the converted encore plugs that are 209 and Lrmp work quite well and they were designed for a black powder only rifle. I've read that the Remington ultimate plugs are much harder than Ken's originals, but I've never machined on one at this point. The orfice may not open extremely fast on the ultimate plug since there really isn't a large volume to the PFC but I would expect erosion to happen a lot faster than with pyrodex pellets. JMO
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Post by indyultra on Dec 13, 2015 16:53:06 GMT -5
Actually kens guns where designed for smokeless when he was building them on ruger actions. They will handle smokeless, I've shot allot thru mine. The issue I had was cold weather and 10x. This was back when smokeless was just starting for savage and there wasn't much info on it. But I swapped out the barrel for pacnor and Luke's plug. That's what I'm shooting now. My main question is about the plug. I like is design and the one I posted a picture of. In just curious why there is a need for the bushing. Why not make it completely solid? I'm just thinking that would eliminate one failure point.
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Post by edge on Dec 13, 2015 17:00:15 GMT -5
I like your honest answer instead of the same old song and dance that says never ever use smokeless with something that is designed for black powder. The barrel is normally the unknown when converting to smokeless, but the BP is normally less of an issue since some MFG's have been known to use mild steel and not a chrome moly which is significantly stronger. The threads are what hold the BP and barrel together and the only thing that really matters is the strength of the Weaker material. 7 threads is generally accepted as taking more than 95% of the maximum, with the first 3 threads taking most of the force. If you are building on a CF action then AND the BP face is no larger than the face of a cartridge for that action then the bolt in theory can withstand the maximum thrust all by itself. Actions similar to the Savage without locking lugs rely on the BP/barrel threads to keep the bolt from hitting your face! edge.
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Post by edge on Dec 13, 2015 17:02:31 GMT -5
The bushing will withstand many more shots than a steel orifice ( of similar dimensions).
edge.
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Post by indyultra on Dec 13, 2015 19:43:37 GMT -5
The bushing will withstand many more shots than a steel orifice ( of similar dimensions). edge. like I said I've got over 3000 rounds thru this gun/plug and never even taken it out, I've been told the bushing I'll need to replace after around 200 rounds. So is smokeless that much harder on plugs then pyrodex? I'm new to shooting a smokeless muzzleloader. I've picked up a ton of info from you guys and I appreciate it all. Thank you
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Post by muznut on Dec 13, 2015 19:48:58 GMT -5
Yes smokeless especially the faster burning is much harder on the vent hole.
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Post by jims on Dec 13, 2015 19:52:40 GMT -5
I really think a bushing for most would last much more than 200 rounds before needing replacement. The carbide/tungsten type materials are more resistant to heat, cutting, erosion etc.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 19:58:57 GMT -5
If you were shooting loose granular powder I think you would have noticed wear on your ultimate plug.
What is your new setup that you replaced the ultimate barrel with? I believe you stated pacnor barrel.
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Post by indyultra on Dec 13, 2015 20:07:28 GMT -5
If you were shooting loose granular powder I think you would have noticed wear on your ultimate plug. What is your new setup that you replaced the ultimate barrel with? I believe you stated pacnor barrel. Yes it's a pacnor with Luke's plug. This is my 300yd groups. Still dialing it in. Using 5744/H4198, 10/60
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 20:11:41 GMT -5
On a 700ml?
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Post by indyultra on Dec 13, 2015 20:13:15 GMT -5
No 700CF,
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 20:25:42 GMT -5
What method of bolt conversion to 209? Luke's got a trick up his sleeve!
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Post by indyultra on Dec 13, 2015 20:31:29 GMT -5
No I'm using the lrp, I cut some of my 45 win mag cases down to fit.
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Post by indyultra on Dec 13, 2015 20:33:53 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 20:47:51 GMT -5
My bad, when you said Luke's plug I thought you meant the arrowhead 209 plug. I know that plug as the Dave d plug. Makes more sense now!
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Post by indyultra on Dec 13, 2015 21:48:54 GMT -5
My bad, when you said Luke's plug I thought you meant the arrowhead 209 plug. I know that plug as the Dave d plug. Makes more sense now! Ok sorry, yes I talked to dave and got the plug from Luke.
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