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Post by mshm99 on Oct 13, 2015 14:17:53 GMT -5
Looks like things are not any better in Illinois. Around home in St. Clair county I have not had a day time trailcam photo since mid July (just 1). No night pics for 6 weeks. My place in Pike County is better, But only a couple does with fawns. 4 year and half bucks. I'm old enough to remember bucks only seasons. I want a little meat and I'm past that big buck thing, so I'm going to let the does walk and shoot anything with antlers till the numbers come up.I read that archery tags are down 40%. Guess I'm not alone in seeing less deer.How is the other deer collapse states doing?
mike
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Post by mrbuck on Oct 13, 2015 14:43:24 GMT -5
You are not alone in seeing less deer . In the Township where I live and work the deer really have not come back from EHD outbreak in 2011 ... and this is a Township that does not allow hunting ! I think you are correct to let the does and fawns " walk " . North Carolina is still not it was in 2009 before they had their EHD outbreak . The problem is convincing the millions of deer hunters across American to let the antlerless deer " walk " will start to build up the herds . Chris
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Post by jbm77 on Oct 13, 2015 21:12:59 GMT -5
from what my neighbors and I have experienced so far it's been less than stellar. Most all crops are harvested and still not seeing deer at night, early mornings on way to work, or evenings coming home. The EHD and my opinion of over harvest has declined the herd a lot. I have no problem with a guy shooting 6-8 deer a year if he's "truly" feeding his family, but I know WAY to many bow hunters that shoot 8-10 a year because they like to "shoot 'em". They donate the meat, eat some give it away, or whatever. But I think it's CRAP!
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Post by eml9 on Oct 16, 2015 11:55:32 GMT -5
I hunt delaware and Maryland. . I don't see half the deer I did 5-7 years ago.. a few years back ehd did hit pretty hard , then they legalized crossbow hunting during bow season and added a bunch of extra gun days (doe only) during the month of October for delaware . Really pisses me off .. no sign of change in sight here.. seems to get worse year by year .. wounded deer that die, poaching , people plain just not registering there harvested deer that butcher themselves , thousands of deer a year that are not accounted for by the states harvest records . Frustrating
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2015 16:43:13 GMT -5
I live wallking out my front door in to the heart of some of the best deer hunting in Iowa. Our numbers aren't what they used to be. Everything is being broke down into parcels and micro-managed in our area. I've hunted the same area since 1965 about 300 of our own and the neighbors on all sides. When I started my dad wouldn't allow use to shoot does. We always had 2 or three big bucks running around to chase. It has probably been 10 years since I've seen a buck around here like those. Technology has made deer hunters out of about anybody and the deer are still depending on the same instincts. I'm done shooting does on my ground from now on just to see what happens. In this area food plots are a mute point we have corn and bean fields all the way around cattle pastures with all the salt and mineral they could ever need. (That's why we had the big ones back when I was a kid.) I do believe it takes alot of good genetics to produce great bucks you remember seeing for a lifetime. And it takes alot more does than it takes bucks. This year I planted no corn or beans , I seeded my ground down with grass and have let a couple low spots go wild with grass and willows trying to see if more cover and escape routes helps. I know this is poorly written but I hope you can get an idea of what I lay awake worrying about at night.
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Post by mrbuck on Oct 18, 2015 18:04:26 GMT -5
I also truly believe technology is the reason deer harvests are what they are today . The knowledge gained hunting the same area from 1965 to 2015 ( 50 years !!! ) can not be questioned . The Morris County New Jersey Sunday newspaper's outdoor section ( 10/18/15 ) stated the early season bow harvest starting Sept.12 to Oct. 12 was down from 11,419 in 2014 to 8,279 in 2015 . That's 3,140 deer ! The early season goes for another 2 weeks but over 3,000 deer is a little tough to make up ! Chris
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Post by sourdough44 on Oct 23, 2015 11:36:15 GMT -5
Last year wasn't great, but since it's family and friends I'm lined up for another season in IL. It was much better 5+ years ago. I'll have my predator call and try for a coyote or two if able.
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Post by mshm99 on Oct 27, 2015 12:56:31 GMT -5
Thanks for all the input. This is a problem that causes me great concern. I guess this boils down to expectations and goals.. A mature doe is much more valuable for propagation in that she has beat the odds and made it to the ability to have twins. The formula that brought the back the population was restricting doe harvest. Then there is the problem of what is going on the neighboring properties. The lease guys start out wanting something big but get frustrated and then shoot or wound anything later in the week. The other neighbor has kids and kids shoot anything. It is more complicated than what would appear on the surface. When I first bought the farm, there were only 10-12 people hunting the 2 sections around us. We instituted a rule that you shoot no buck that you would not have mounted. The first couple years with low hunter density we got a couple 150 class bucks. We followed the rule for 15 years. We dropped the plan when it became obvious it was not working when I visited the neighbors and saw the bucks I let walk during bow and gun hanging from the meat pole. I like to eat deer so I did not mind shooting does, they taste better anyway. So the “let em walk “thing is nuanced by the competing expectations of your neighbors. As it has been said many times “You can't stock pile bucks on your farm” And once again antlers have never been a priority for me. I am a ten year member of QDMA and have been engaged in habitat improvement ever since. Food and cover are not the issue.
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Post by hawghunter on Oct 29, 2015 17:54:12 GMT -5
I can not comment on Illinois but I can share what is going on in Michigan. I belong to a hunting club in Alcona county that covers over 10,000 acres. Club members voted to shut down deer season for this year due to lack of deer. It's not like we do not have good managers, we do. In the UP of Michigan killing does with archery equipment has been taken off the table. You can only kill a doe with an antlerless tag in 3 DMUs in the UP. Winter kill and too many wolves are the reason for the shortage of deer.
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Post by 1coyotemaster on Oct 29, 2015 20:12:08 GMT -5
I do live and hunt in Illinois and mshm99 has some good insights as far as letting the does walk. In early season when you shoot a mature doe with a fawn and worse a set of twins you are pretty much killing all three. More times than I would like to admit I killed the old matriarch with twins and found one or both twins in pieces a week or two later, victims of old Wiley. The fawns are lost without the doe and wander around bleating till the Coyotes find them. A better plan, though not QDM is to kill a basket rack for meat--they will usually weigh more than a big doe anyway and save a tag for a wall hanger if one comes along later. The does will run the fawns off prior to the serious chasing time (early November)and I would assume mother nature deems them ready to be on their own by then. I won't state my opinions on the continual applications of pesticides and herbicides again but I strongly feel this is at least part of the problem with the deer herd. For an eye opener check out a couple youtube lectures on Roundup by Steffanie Senef a senior researcher at MIT--she has done her homework.
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Post by mshm99 on Dec 2, 2015 16:49:14 GMT -5
We made it through the first gun season here in Illinois. My Pike county had led the state in deer kill for as long as I can remember. This first shotgun/ muzzleloader season Pike slipped to #5 and barely made that by the skin of it's teeth. Despite the slip in the ranking I did see a good number of fawns, we call them fun size. So I feel that maybe we might be on the mend. I got a fat cow horned buck for the freezer. I'm going this weekend for the second season and call it a year. I've got some magneto work to do on my '42 Farmall H so we'll see how much hunting I get done.
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Post by mrbuck on Dec 3, 2015 12:41:36 GMT -5
I wish more hunters would realize that when you shoot that mature doe that you are really killing three deer ! Have we all forgotten the children's story of the goose that laid the golden eggs ? That fat cow horn will eat just fine . I wonder what would happen with a deer herd if ,for a period of time ( 8 years ? ) , no does were harvested and only spike bucks would be legal to shoot ? Chris
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aiken
Button Buck
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Post by aiken on Dec 3, 2015 13:11:09 GMT -5
I am in the NW corner of Illinois and there are nowhere near the deer here as compared to 5 years ago. We have gone to bucks only on our place. Less does equals less bucks. Years ago when I started hunting with my dad we didn't kill any female anything if it was distinguishable...period. We had a federal mines inspector at our mine a few years ago and he was approaching 100 archery does in southern Illinois and wasn't done yet and proud of it!
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Post by mshm99 on Dec 8, 2015 10:38:00 GMT -5
For many years it was true we had too many does. Our best years followed strong harvests of does, and let the young bucks walk. But the circumstances have changed. In my opinion, there is just way too much emphasis place on cultivating big bucks. It has pushed regular guys off ground they hunted for generations. The guys that just wanted to take their kids hunting and bring home a deer, any deer. You can't stockpile bucks unless you fence them in. Just like bass fishing upped the ante by those who had to have the latest and greatest equipment. A zebco 303 works just fine for me. The guys leasing ground want you to practice QDMA, so the can shoot a big buck. I am inclined to think they are fools to pay big wads of money just to hunt for something to hang on the wall and collect dust. We just got back from the second season and my group took a few more spikes and 3 pointers and I don't feel one bit guilty.
Here's a couple of links us ILL. guys might find interesting
tworiversoutdoors.com/fourth-place-standing-bitter-pill-to-swallow-p1991-93.htm tworiversoutdoors.com/pike-slips-to-fourth-in-firearm-deer-kills-p1995-90.htm
Mike
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Post by mshm99 on Jan 8, 2016 10:23:29 GMT -5
To put this to bed, I've put down the numbers. In Southern IL ,Randolph county cancelled their late season doe shoots last year and this year. They had the highest harvest the first gun season. Their herd is recovering. Yeah I can see my county has way too many deer . Let's keep shooting does. Archery Firearm 2015 2010 2211 Pike
2014 Pike 2176 2163
2013 Pike 2508 2270
2012 Pike 2842 3073
2011 Pike 2953 2958
2010 Pike 3228 3132
2009 Pike 3575 3272
2008 Pike 3754 3356
2007 Pike 3699 3754
2006 Pike 4210 3758
2005 Pike 4173 4173
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Post by edge on Jan 8, 2016 10:46:11 GMT -5
SNIP. I wonder what would happen with a deer herd if ,for a period of time ( 8 years ? ) , no does were harvested and only spike bucks would be legal to shoot ? Chris For some reason the QDM mentality thinks that mature Spike bucks are good to have in a herd and are protected but every year you can shoot the trophy bucks, that is called "high grading" and is a bad policy. I would love to hear a farmer tell me that his Prize Bull should go to slaughter so that he can breed his scrawny untested bull to his herd! When a reputable educated farmer tells me that then I agree with QDM edge.
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Post by rambler on Jan 8, 2016 10:49:04 GMT -5
SNIP. I wonder what would happen with a deer herd if ,for a period of time ( 8 years ? ) , no does were harvested and only spike bucks would be legal to shoot ? Chris For some reason the QDM mentality thinks that mature Spike bucks are good to have in a herd and are protected but every year you can shoot the trophy bucks, that is called "high grading" and is a bad policy.
I would love to hear a farmer tell me that his Prize Bull should go to slaughter so that he can breed his scrawny untested bull to his herd! When a reputable educated farmer tells me that then I agree with QDM edge. This is an excellent analogy.
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Post by norseman1 on Jan 8, 2016 20:31:27 GMT -5
I have hunted the property I live on for 35 years.It is not farm country.It is big woods.Does used to be protected in Wi.Our herd built up.You used to be able to get a party permit.One deer for 4 applicants.Things were good.Then The Wi.DNR changed to Hunters Choice.A draw so that a hunter could make the choice of shooting a doe or a buck.Things still were not too bad.Then the Wi.DNR went nuts and were selling so many doe tags it was ridiculous.Deer hunting now sucks,but not for just those reasons.I still have bucks in the area.Some are really big,but they are almost all nocturnal.You may ask ,why is that.Two reasons in my estimation.Food plots and deer baiting.The deer used to have to compete for the food and you would see them during the day.Now they can come and feed at night with out being harassed.They have been programed by the hunters to feed at night.The days of high deer harvest with unlimited does are over.A lot of the reason was greedy hunters who had to kill,kill,kill.They shot way more than they could eat and would not listen to logic.Now if you go into a bar or Restaurant during deer season all you hear is pissing and moaning.Well fellas you @#$%^& yourselves and now are reaping what you sowed.norseman1
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Post by rossman40 on Jan 8, 2016 22:00:26 GMT -5
There was something I heard a few years ago about the Boone & Crocket scores going down, not so much deer but the smaller populations of mountain goats, bighorn sheep, even moose. Too many guys going after the big trophies and taking the biggest males out of the gene pool. So with all the big trophies out your leaving the scrawny males to propagate.
With the deer you have the insurance companies after the states to cut the deer populations. Here in Ohio the DNRs deer survey for the deer population estimate was done by how many deer were struck by cars and how many farmers whined about crop damage. Then where we hunt the locals do not call it deer hunting, it's just shooting. When the freezer gets low they go out that night and pop them one. If they get it in the barn before anybody with a badge sees them they don't need no permit/tag/license.
I do think the deer have wised up. Last year we had a trail camera over the main mineral lick on the property. For the two months prior we had at least 3 deer every night like clockwork. The night before gun season, none, and then for the next 3 nights, none...
The Ohio DNR is now scrambling to save the deer gun season. The main reason is out-of-state deer hunters. Deer hunting here in Ohio has become a billion dollar industry mainly centered in the poorest counties. They cut out the early ML season to cut back on the harvest but then allowed an extra 2 days of gun season between Xmas and New Years to bring the out-of-state hunters back to spend more money.
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Post by Dave W on Jan 9, 2016 11:04:47 GMT -5
Interesting theory Norseman on baiting and nocturnal activity. Never gave that a thought until you mentioned it. When I first started hunting Ohio back in the early 90's on reclaimed strip land it was awesome hunting. Better quality of bucks from my home state, saw a lot less deer but saw more bucks than does on outings, bucks responded aggressively to calling too. The last piece of private land we were on was very good hunting at the beginning, then the Amish got on one of the adjacent properties during gun season and another tract switched ownership to a group of guys that pounded like the Amish. Then the animal lovers moved onto their adjacent property when they retired.
The group started baiting and put in plots, the animal lovers baited to hold the deer on their property and keep them away from us. The Amish got forced out but were replaced by a hunting show group that also baited, then a new regime came in on our hunting property and started baiting. Last year was one of the two worst years I saw for movement, only topped possibly by the year the son in law of the owner got a trail cam and continuously moved it trying to get pics. Saw one mature buck last year during the rut and never saw a buck during firearms season, a first for me. I will say on one small piece of property my buddy owned we put out gravity feeders to hold the does for the rut and it worked quite well. By the third year of restraint we saw numerous shooters during daylight hours.
Sure there are a number of other contributing factors for our former area, coyotes had came on strong, couple EHD outbreaks had taken a toll along with the "brown it is down" mentality by the other groups. Don't know if we will ever see times like the old days but have to hope.
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Post by mrbuck on Jan 9, 2016 15:22:40 GMT -5
mshm99's figures from 2005 to 2015 for Pike County show how badly deer herds are being managed ...but as long as license and doe permit sales continue , the deer numbers will go down . The idea that baiting may cause deer not to move during daylight hours could possibly be true . However when you have hunted some tracts of land for many years you can see the lack of deer trails , tracks , scrapes , rubs , and other physical signs of deer presence . The animals are just not there ! The roadkills are just not there , either . There will always be the " Story Tellers " that see more deer ( and bucks ! ) than ten of you buddies combined , but reality seems to indicate ( at least here in Northern New Jersey ) the deer herd is about 10% of what it was in the mid 70's . Chris
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Post by norseman1 on Jan 9, 2016 15:43:09 GMT -5
Actually I forgot to mention the high number of Predators we have now in Northern Wi.Wolves ,Bears,Bobcats and Coyotes are at peak populations around here.The DNR has lowballed the population estimations because in the words of our local Game Biologist(They do not want to piss off the anti hunters!)I am scratching my head over that statement as all of The DNR Employees wages are paid from money gotten from the sales of hunting licenses.There is no money going to the DNR from the general tax fund.They also do get money from The Pittman-Robertson Fund.Makes my head hurt!!!!norseman1
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Post by edge on Jan 9, 2016 16:53:37 GMT -5
In NJ Does used to be relatively protected especially during gun season.
!970's total deer harvest went from 11k total 7.7k bucks and 3.3k does. The harvest kept increasing and in 1999 the harvest was up to 60k 27k bucks and 33k does.
The Permit prices went up and you could shoot unlimited Does. In 2000 the harvest went to 75k 33k bucks and 53k does and the does harvest has been lopsided ever since! Last years harvest was down to 52k total 17k bucks and 33k does...yet the price of permits keeps escalating!
edge.
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Post by mrbuck on Jan 10, 2016 16:51:00 GMT -5
edge is pretty much accurate in his harvest numbers . The print out of the harvest numbers in NJ from 1972 ( the first year of mandatory checking ) to 2014-2015 show that for the 2000-2001 seasons 77,444 deer were harvested . Of that number 23,307 were antlered and 54,137 were antlerless . Sure would like to go back to the '72 buck season ... those were the days !! Chris
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Post by 1coyotemaster on Jan 10, 2016 21:44:10 GMT -5
My season in Illinois was about equal to last years as far as animals seen. Illinois is in such bad financial shape that the IDNR won't forsake the 1.5 mil they collect in permit fees even if it means destruction of the herd. As an aside the CPO in my county thinks the deer herd is in good shape--she should have seen it in the 90s!!!
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Post by mshm99 on Jan 11, 2016 9:53:24 GMT -5
SNIP. I wonder what would happen with a deer herd if ,for a period of time ( 8 years ? ) , no does were harvested and only spike bucks would be legal to shoot ? Chris For some reason the QDM mentality thinks that mature Spike bucks are good to have in a herd and are protected but every year you can shoot the trophy bucks, that is called "high grading" and is a bad policy. I would love to hear a farmer tell me that his Prize Bull should go to slaughter so that he can breed his scrawny untested bull to his herd! When a reputable educated farmer tells me that then I agree with QDM edge. I'd never thought of it like that. That is exactly what has happened on the leased adjacent properties. I guess it comes under the law of unintended consequences. I have never been concerned with big antlers. I just enjoy eating venison, so my concern was always tilted towards numbers. If anything good comes out of this,maybe it will be the leasing thing collapsing. You just nailed it with common sense ,Edge.
mike
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Post by edge on Jan 11, 2016 10:27:11 GMT -5
SNIP. I just enjoy eating venison, so my concern was always tilted towards numbers. If anything good comes out of this,maybe it will be the leasing thing collapsing. You just nailed it with common sense ,Edge. mike If you like eating venison, then larger bodies regardless of antler size is probably a good thing too There was a study done in Texas on the Kerr Wildlife Management area that went on for decades regarding Spikes and antler genetics. Not only were antler size smaller at every age, but so was body mass. spikes @ 1.5 years averaged 93 lbs, 3-5 points averaged 104 and 6 or more points averaged 116 @ 4.5 years 143, 163, and 179 respectively. edge. FYI here is the study: tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_rp_w7000_0827.pdf
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Post by mshm99 on Jan 12, 2016 10:25:31 GMT -5
I don't want to start a fight, but I always have found the fawns quite tasty. As in the milk still dripping from their chin. Ut oh, I'm starting to salivate.
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Post by edge on Jan 12, 2016 12:19:54 GMT -5
I don't want to start a fight, but I always have found the fawns quite tasty. As in the milk still dripping from their chin. Ut oh, I'm starting to salivate. Actually if you connect the dots on a fawn is spells out "VEAL"
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Post by mrbuck on Jan 12, 2016 13:10:10 GMT -5
mshm99... coyotes feel the same way !! Chris
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