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Post by ozark on May 12, 2009 20:07:34 GMT -5
Joel Osteen is a good speaker and gives a motivational uplifting speach. He tells some good jokes and has a large following. I like to hear him speak. I wouldn't call him a preacher or bibical teacher. Motivational speaker I would say. He never closes a program without asking his listeners to say a simple prayer which I can't quote word for word but something like repenting of my sins and accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior.. He then says that if you have said this prayer you have been born again. I personally cannot buy that saying that simple prayer means you are born again as mentioned in the bible. The question is: Do you feel that is all there is to it? Or is it a more personal experience between you and the Holy Spirit?
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Post by sw on May 12, 2009 21:22:32 GMT -5
:)Ben, I think there might be a delay on answers to your question as there will likely be some very well thought-out answers coming on this one. I believe the key to this answer is a realistic meaning to "repentance" which goes well beyond "being sorry for". Many more want a "savior" than a "Lord and savior". Why did Jesus come to earth? Was it primarily to "keep you from going to Hell" or was it to "allow God to have relationship with you"? Is salvation a two way street? Is it a gift but one that must be accepted on God's terms? Do we agree to quit being a member of the earthly kingdom and become a member of the Heavenly Kingdom, here and now, and plan on following God's norms of behavior? Etc. I think all of these thoughts plus more will be part of the answers that will come over the following days. My opinion, which will eventually be voiced or written, will come from the time "after the cross/resurrection", not before. Acts 2:38 was the answer given to some of those who actually supported the crucifixion of Jesus. They were vile offenders of what was right but consider the answer Peter gave them. The key: repentance.
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Post by Buckrub on May 13, 2009 8:46:55 GMT -5
SW quotes correctly. When the first time this question was asked.....by the Jews when they heard the FIRST sermon on Pentecost Day........he told them exactly what to do. That's Acts 2:38. Most religious people balk at obeying this command, for some odd reason that is beyond my ability to grasp, but it's clearly a command with a listed result.
Jesus was asked this VERY question by a Jew named Nicodemus. Jesus' own words answered Nicodemus clearly. Nicodemus was astonished that someone would say that a man has to be born AGAIN! He couldn't imagine such things. Jesus told him clearly that he had to be born again "OF THE WATER AND THE SPIRIT". Not very hard to understand. Read 3rd chapter of John closely.
And I repeat what Jesus said about those that love Him. We talk a LOT about how God loves US, but not as much about how we should go about loving Him. John 14:15 and 15:14 tell clearly, in Jesus' words, what he expects us to do. It's more than just generating some internal feeling inside yourself. It takes obedience, at least according to Jesus' words it does.
I do NOT know why.....but the gate that leads to destruction is Wide and full of people and the gate that leads to Salvation is narrow and has few that enter. I wish I understood WHY that's true....but God said that it is. I suspect the reason it's true is that God expects a bit more out of us than most of us are willing to do.....and we spend our lives trying to avoid obeying a few little rules and commandments, rather than just kneeling and asking "What now, Lord?"......
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Post by ozark on May 13, 2009 10:55:34 GMT -5
It seems to me that the practice says that all one must do is attend one of his meetings and repeat those words with him to be born again. I personally think being born again is a personal experience that occurs when God accepts you as his own. I don't think one needs to know the teachings of the bible well or at all provided they experience this personal acceptance through the power of the Holy spirit. My question was: Joel says clearly that if you say that simple prayer we believe you are born again. I cannot agree at this time but perhaps someone can convince me. I will be reading and waiting. Ben
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Post by Buckrub on May 13, 2009 11:08:57 GMT -5
A good conscience is not enough. Read Acts 9. The Apostle Paul, then named Saul, thought he was 'right with God'. He had accepted God and was a true believer. But Jesus knocked him down and told him he was a sinner.
Feeling good about yourself ain't enough. Again....."If you love me, you will keep my commandments". That's not hard to understand if you want to believe the Word.
I'll not be posting again on this. I will discuss it forever privately. Thanks for allowing me to state my beliefs.
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Post by ozark on May 13, 2009 12:42:33 GMT -5
[quote.
I'll not be posting again on this. I will discuss it forever privately. Thanks for allowing me to state my beliefs.
[/quote]
Have I or someone else offended you Buckrub? Your views and beliefs are as welcome and as valuable as anyones. I may differ from others in my understandings but I don't mean to be critical of the beliefs of others. Ben
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Post by dougedwards on May 13, 2009 12:50:33 GMT -5
Ben.....some of these subjects are somewhat controversial. This question bites to the core of who we are as believers. However there is nothing wrong with that. I, for one, am enjoying your question and the responses to it.
Doug
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Post by Buckrub on May 13, 2009 13:28:17 GMT -5
Gosh no, Ozark. I sincerely apologize if you inferred I meant anything at all directed to you.
It was about me, it wasn't about you. Trust me.
Sir, I've disagreed with you (sometimes pretty strongly) on some things here. But there is nothing I can imagine, in my wildest dreams, that you could do to truly offend me. Arguing with me is most CERTAINLY not something that would offend me. That would not be possible.
I just know, from three-score years of experience, that my beliefs on this subject are not well received, and I know myself......and I know I'll argue till the cows come home......and that combination has historically gotten me into trouble with folks. It hasn't bothered ME, but it's bothered them immensely.
So, I was just bowing out before that happened.
This isn't the only forum to discuss things. I have 2 emails and 3 phone numbers. I'll talk to anyone anytime. I just did not want to upset the good folks here by being dogmatic (which I am when it comes to what I consider the truth).
I firmly believe that there is black and white 'truth' in the world.......and that there are also gray areas.........and wisdom comes from being able to discern all 3 colors.
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Post by ozark on May 13, 2009 14:01:15 GMT -5
Thanks buckrub. We agree that truth is the key and that the real truth is the one that must be found if value is expected. Thanks for explaining. Ben
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Post by 161 on May 14, 2009 9:12:32 GMT -5
If I can add my two cents worth. I consider myself a baby Christian. I never enjoyed going to church until about 6 years ago. So I am not well versed at all. I attend a Four Square Church where about every two weeks at the end of the service the Pastor asks everyone to close their eyes and we say that same prayer. I had a friend attend church with me and I felt I needed to explain to him what Born Again means.
This is my take on Born Again and if I'm wrong explain it to me because I'm posting this as a question as much as anything. I could tell he didn't have a clue what had just happened so my explanation was. If you are Born Again that means this is the day "you" allow Jesus into "your" heart. And every wrong you have done up to this point in your life is gone. You are clean of your sins. I believe it is the day you begin a new way of life and act accordingly. It's the first "step" on your journey to salvation.
I do not believe in the once saved always saved theory some do. Meaning if you accept Jesus then a week later you do something stupid your still OK.
Did that make sense or am I off base.? Warren
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Post by ozark on May 14, 2009 12:29:33 GMT -5
From my own personal experience and from listening to others it appears to me that God deals with each individual in a special way that leaves absolutely no doubt about being accepted into the family of God. If rhere are doubts about whether one has experienced spiritual rebirth then I would think that individual would have a desire for more assurance and seek just that. We are not in control of this experience and it is done as God sees fit in a manner that leaves no doubts whatsoever. I have heard people say that they were in bed, on a horse, in a church house and different other locataions. But it seems that always there is perfect assurance and confidence that you are accepted. When God decides that you are in the proper state of repentance, proper state of mine and ready inwardly it happens. I can't put you in the desired state of extistance. Only God can do that. But, I believe (Note BELIEVE) that everyone will be given that chance. I know it doesn't make sense unless you have been there and experienced being born again.
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Post by Buckrub on May 14, 2009 20:16:40 GMT -5
Oh how I wish that were true. If it is, I'm still waiting.
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Post by dougedwards on May 16, 2009 18:14:47 GMT -5
I personally cannot buy that saying that simple prayer means you are born again as mentioned in the bible. The question is: Do you feel that is all there is to it? Or is it a more personal experience between you and the Holy Spirit? Without hesitation my answer to your question would be: NO, just because someone confesses with their mouth but doesn't believe unto death with their heart that they are an undeserving sinner who is offered grace through the love of the Father and through the suffering of the Son then that person only performed lip service hoping for something of value in return. This is well documented in scripture in particularly with what is thought to be probably the very first parable given by Jesus. The parable of the sower of the seed. Jesus explained to his disciples who didn't understand why Jesus happened to speak in a parable instead of speaking directly that a man's (or woman's) ears have to be prepared first before they can hear and understand the secrets of the kingdom. Jesus said "To those who have been given ears to hear, let him hear." Jesus then went on to explain the parable to his disciples. The seed is God's word. The sower is the one who is delivering the good word. Some of the seed fell by the wayside and was quickly eaten by the birds. This represents those who hear the word but do not understand so Satan quickly removes the word from the hearer's heart. Some seed fell on hard ground with little depth and when the seedling immediately sprang up the sun scorched it away because it had no deep roots. This is the man who hears and receives the good word with joy but is not actually rooted in total commitment to the word and when trials and persecution come he quick reverts back to his original state of sinfulness. Other seed fell on good ground and took root but the thorns grew side by side with the seedling and choked it out. This represents the man who hears and receives and begins a good work which is eventually choked out by his wicked desires for wealth or notoriety or possibly to fulfill his addictions. But some seed fell on good fertile ground that had been prepared and the sun nor the weeds nor the birds were able to stop the depth of root or the slow but certain growth of the plant and the plant brought forth much good fruit. This represents the man who hears the word and not only accepts but understands his depravity and the need for the Savior and in repentance turns away from lawlessness in spite of all outside influences of the world. Jesus is without question referring to false conversions here. The question is.....does anything really supernatural happen when a man accepts the love of Christ into his heart? If so, is this supernatural changing evident in the one who hears and accepts the good word? It seems that contemporary evangelism has a focus to throw as much mud on the wall in anticipation that at least some percentage of it will stick. That might not be such an unfruitful approach if the sower of the seed would stick to his job and not attempt to present the seed as candy of some sort to make it more appealing. "let he who has been given ears, let him hear"
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Post by ozark on May 16, 2009 18:34:06 GMT -5
Interesting Dougedwards, I would like to read your understanding concerning the meaning of the word regarding leaving a comforter which many believe to be the Holy Spirit that can communicate directly with the living. Thanks, Ben
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Post by dougedwards on May 17, 2009 7:29:21 GMT -5
Interesting Dougedwards, I would like to read your understanding concerning the meaning of the word regarding leaving a comforter which many believe to be the Holy Spirit that can communicate directly with the living. Thanks, Ben We find in John 14:26 the words of Jesus to his disciples: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." Jesus instructed his disciples to go and wait upon the Spirit of God before proceeding any further with ministry. Because Jesus would not be physically there with them after His Ascension into the heavenly kingdom, the Father sent His Spirit to empower the disciples for ministry. We do know from scripture that only those who have the indwelling of this Spirit are called the sons of God (Romans 8:14). We also know that the Spirit only speaks to us as the Father instructs to Spirit to speak (John 16:13). The indwelling Spirit also prays for us when our spirit is weak with groanings that we are unable to utter (Romans 8:26). Also, we are unable to know God except by the indwelling Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2:11). However I perceive that your question is related to the topic of being born again. Is the Holy Spirit active and a necessary part of this phenomenon known as being born again? My opinion is that without the influence of the Spirit that no man will accept Christ into his heart. That might be a rather controversial statement and many others will disagree. Think of it this way. Jesus said that because he was going away that He would send a substitute for Himself to lead and empower his disciples for ministry. Jesus is the only path to the Father. The Spirit of God is substituting for Jesus in the hearts of men. It follows that if you are without the Spirit that you are without the Son of God. Even Jesus was not empowered with divinity on earth until the Father sent His Spirit to Jesus the Christ at his baptism. Based on scripture I would say that void of the influence of the Spirit of God that there is no hope of salvation. The Spirit changes the way we think and feel. He changes our hearts of stone into hearts of flesh that is able to love Jesus as the lamb of God. Many do believe that our salvation is totally dependent on our own will to make a decision to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. If that is the case does the man who chooses righteousness have a right to boast of his decision over the man who chooses unrighteousness? Read the second chapter of the book of Ephesians where salvation is eloquently described and tell me what part of the decision of man plays into his salvation. This is a controversial subject for sure and I am bracing myself for the responses to come. Doug
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Post by ozark on May 17, 2009 10:27:44 GMT -5
My comment Doug is: AMEN. It is not often that I agree so fully. Ozark.
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Post by whyohe on May 17, 2009 17:05:25 GMT -5
buckrub, IMO do not remove your self from this post. your faith and belief in GOD should be that heart felt! it is YOUR relationship with HIM and if it is a good one your felling will be strong as so with your beliefs.
I'm truely enjoying reading this post. IT is very uplifting.
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Post by ozark on May 17, 2009 18:21:15 GMT -5
How do we know if we have been born again? How do we know if we are approved in the eyes of God? What means of communication does God have with the people he created? How can we extract from the bible the true meanings? What is stronger than the scriptures to the Christian? What is the Holy Ghost and how is it associated with the Father and the Son? I can only offer my understandings which may or may not be yours. The three Godheads are used in the cermonia of baptism as: "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost." God the creator who sent his Son Jesus for a specific purpose to earth and who was actually God among mankind. I see the Holy Ghost as the Holy Spirit that deals and communicates directly with Gods people here on earth. I see it as that silent voice that tells you that something is right or wrong and guides us (if we listen} in the way of rightiousness. I see it as the force that brings us to the conviction that we should turn from our wicked ways and follow the path that leads us to an everlasting life. I see it as the power that convinces us beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have been born again, that we are a real Christian rather than a pretender. IMO when the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) speaks directly to you then that overrides anything you thought the Bible meant. You know it is real and not left for interpertutation. I think The Holy Spirit dwells within us to guide us. We may ignore it and never accept that within us is a source of power calling us to walk in the path that leads to everlasting life. I see it as our open door that invites us to follow its calling. And when we obey that calling we experience a feeling that is greater than any words of mine can describe. I will not be offended by disagreements nor will my confidence be shaken. Call me a fool but I proclaim boldly that nothing anyone can say can shake what I have experienced personally and have since never doubted. For years I questioned my Love for Jesus. I knew you were supposed to love the Lord and for me that didn't come natural as the love we have for our Mother or prhaps to a sport. I came in time to an awareness that Jesus was Truth, the right way and those were things that I could love without reservations. How beautiful is the truth, how wonderful is the right way and the freedom of not being lost. For me it is easy to love those things. I will stop now and leave my words for you to ponder over and maybe reply to. I can't say what is right for you but for me it is real. Ozark
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Post by Buckrub on May 17, 2009 18:57:57 GMT -5
Whyohe, thank you. But my beliefs are so far different from most of the posters here that I will not sway anyone, of that I am sure. I have stated above, in several posts, for all to read what I believe, and it's not accepted. It seldom is. I am trying to stay away from commenting to my FRIENDS here on this subject, but this is one subject it is hard for me to be silent on.
I continue to claim, boldly, that if a full personal confidence and belief in your own religious system, and in God, is ALL that is needed, that Saul of Tarsus would not have been knocked down on the road in Acts 9 and told he needed to go hear a preacher tell him what to do. (Sidebar: I know 99% of the readers of that passage believe that Jesus knocked him off of a horse. I contend that anyone who can read anything as big a horse (which isn't in the chapter at all) into Acts 9, then they can read anything into it that they want to)). His conscience was clear, as he tells us later, and he served with all his might. Yet he was in ERROR and had steps yet to be taken to get to salvation. Jesus didn't even save him on that road!! Jesus told him to go see a preacher that told him what to do, and he did it.
I have heard 5,500 sermons in my life, by my guess. I have read the Bible and believed with all my heart, every day. I have preached to many. I have participated in many church services in many ways. I have boldly upheld HIS name wherever I could.
And yet the Holy Spirit, or anything else, has never interjected himself directly into my life in any way.
Why, you might ask?
Because I am convinced that the Holy Spirit's job......the "Comforter" that is mentioned.....was the guiding of the writers of the Bible's hands, the direct inspiration, for the WORD that the Holy Spirit and God gave us to comfort us after Christ left us. And it is that WORD that comforts me, not some easily-to-be-misunderstood feelings. No one on this planet has ever believed more strongly than I do. Yet I have never received the first inkling of such 'better felt than told' feelings. Those that believe they have received, tell me to not question them. But inwardly I must.
The Apostle Paul said that of all sinners that ever lived, he was Chief. Yet I had not been born yet, so he spoke the truth to that point. But as of now, I lead the pack. No one is more sinner than I am. I fear for my life, every single breathing minute. But I believe. And I've been baptized for removal of my sins. And I pray daily for the accumulated and new sins to be forgiven.
Yet I am so scared.
Because I am so unworthy. Some sins, like failing to properly guide all of my children into the proper way.....will require me to answer for them someday, and I can't get forgiveness fast enough, for those sins re-occur by the moment. But I ask for forgiveness, because it's promised me.
I was born again of the water and the spirit. But I have no guarantees, nor have I ever felt some overwhelming feeling. Facts and truth guide me, not just feelings. I've known way too many people whose feelings misguided them (including Paul, and Peter, and many others), and including my friends. I don't trust feelings. I do trust God and his word.
I apologize for disagreeing with so many of you. I wish sincerity was all that was required, for I clearly see your sincerity.
God bless you all.
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Post by dougedwards on May 17, 2009 19:29:23 GMT -5
I apologize for disagreeing with so many of you. I wish sincerity was all that was required, for I clearly see your sincerity. God bless you all. No need at all for any apology because none of us is the ultimate authority. There have been discussions for centuries concerning the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures and I am sure that we will all be surprised when all is revealed to us in heaven. I, myself am 54 years old and my opinions even in the most important matters have drastically changed on many subjects in my lifetime. I can hold no malice for any person who might disagree with me when I can't even consistently agree with myself. However I do know this. If any man truly loves Jesus the Christ then that man is my eternal brother. Family members don't have to agree on every issue but they are still family even in disagreement. Doug
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Post by ozark on May 17, 2009 20:15:50 GMT -5
Saul (later St. Paul) was struck down on the road to Damascus. In him Jesus had big plans and not dealing with the ordinary man. He had a work for St. Paul to do and needed to get his attention in an unusual way. He got it. Buckrub, I don't find your beliefs unusual or find fault with your brand of serving. I am satisfied that God has a plan for each of us and that our experiences will be His decision and not our own. St Paul is a good example of how differently He deals with individuals. I get some insight from reading your posts and certainly don't resent any of your beliefs. My own experiences doesn't mean that yours should be identical. Just as my experiences have been nothing close to those of St. Paul. Please don't read into my words that my understanding should be those of everyone. I feel they are unique just for me. Ozark.
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Post by davewolf on May 17, 2009 21:36:31 GMT -5
I might interject something worthwhile. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone."
Buckrub, God, The Holy Ghost & Jesus are talking to you right now...ask what you need to do, in a silent or an out loud prayer. You may ask all the questions you like here and I believe that God has sent you to this message board. On earth we can't live without sinning, but we can sure make every effort to. I believe the fear you're feeling is that God is speaking to your heart...open up and leave him in.
I can feel the love on this thread..."For God so loved the world he gave his only son to die for our sins." Part of loving God is fearing God. So yes, Ozark Olsteen, like Billy Graham's job is/was to save souls, and a simple prayer is all it takes to be accepted into the Kingdom of God. But only God knows who is pretending and who has repented of their sins and accepted God as their Lord and savior. I can feel God working here, so keep on praying! I will not judge or voice an opinion....that's God's job. God Bless all of you, for you're all carrying on God's works. Dave
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Post by davewolf on May 18, 2009 18:59:16 GMT -5
I certainly didn't intend to get too involved with this thread and hopefully, it will continue. All I can say is that I'm sending up prayers, and even as the sinner I am I have faith they will be answered. If I have offended anyone, I profusely apologize. Dave
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Post by ozark on May 18, 2009 20:01:15 GMT -5
The subject here is: 1. The most important of our lifetime or: 2. The greatest hoax known to mankind. It is either fact or fiction and we are left to decide which. I believe that each of us have a duty to work out our own religion and that Gods mission for one may well be far different from His mission for another. It is clearly stated: Verily Verily I say unto you except a man be born again he shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. If there is an alternate route then I am unfamiliar with it. Being born again appears to me to be an absolute must or the bible is incorrect. How can there be any peace of mind or confidence until that essential is met and we are aware that it has been met? In my case I had wondered, pondered, questioned and worried about this for years. Finally, I accepted that I could not give myself rebirth. I was at a point where I was ready to accept it all as a bunch of bull or be shown a sign that left no doubt. I could not believe simply because it was written in a book. I needed something that I could believe without questions, doubts or worry. When I reached that stage I experienced being born again and I have never doubted it for even a second. Yes, I have strayed, sined, fallen away and been a poor servant for God. But doubts I have not had even once. This may not be the path chosen for others. We are all different and only God knows best how to handle our special needs. I don't mean to preach or outline a highway to heaven for anyone. I cannot help you believe anything but I trust and pray that you will seek and discover the truth for the special you. I believe that many of you have crossed the bridge that I speak of and to you all I can say is: Isn't it wonderful to know that there is a power greater than any here on earth? Ozark
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Post by ozark on May 19, 2009 20:43:34 GMT -5
Since I have had no replies positive or negative I am left to wonder if I have stepped on some toes or been declared a lunitic. I have considered deleting my post but decided that would be wrong since I only revealed a true experience. Sorry if my experience leads you to believe that I am way out in left field trying to act as the pitcher. Ozark
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Post by davewolf on May 19, 2009 22:12:53 GMT -5
I have no qualms with what you wrote, obviously you're secure in your faith. My fear was that I came into this discussion late and may have put off buckrub. I would like to hear from him, and if he likes, I'll stand aside. I think God is calling him to come forward. Dave
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Post by Buckrub on May 21, 2009 9:57:37 GMT -5
Dave, I can't get here nonstop (well SOME days I can.......but not often). Nothing anyone says would offend of put me off. I know you guys don't know me, but I have no qualms with disagreement. I will discuss forever or I die, whichever comes first. But I know from experience that it's ME that puts folks off so I back off. I don't think God is calling me to do anything that I haven't done already. God 'calls' me through his word. That's the only calling I know about. That's what I've said over and over. That has been discounted repeatedly by folks here, who desperately want to believe that some strong feeling of belief (which is good) is the same as being forced to believe by some power greater than them. I can't buy that for one second. The reason I can't believe it is that such a belief would obviate man's freedom of choice. If God zaps belief into some folks and doesn't zap belief into others, that would make Him a respecter of persons, which the Bible says he is not. Everyone is equal. Everyone can exercise their own free choice whether to believe or not believe, and whether to obey or not obey. But knowing WHAT to obey, and WHAT to believe, has to come from the Bible, and no other place. You can read it, I can read it, we both get to CHOOSE whether to act on it. Ozark says he cannot believe simply because it was written in a book. I pray for him, because that is the sole way we can know what to believe. Otherwise we could pitch the Bible and just sit and wait for God to force us to be saved, and then do nothing else. I've acted on it. I've read it. I've believed it. I've followed the commandments to be baptized for the remission of my sins. That is what the Bible told me to do, just as it tells everyone to do that same thing. You can choose to obey or not. Belief in God and Jesus is one of the commandments. You have to believe, I understand that. But it's not the only one. Too many folks want to stop there because they believe so strongly that they are convinced some outside force caused that. If that was true, I can guarantee you that my belief is as strong as yours is, and I've NEVER had any such zapping or outside 'better felt than told' experience. Why would I be left out? In 60 years, I've preached to others, I've spread the Word where I could, I've worked hard, I've believed......and I've sinned repeatedly. If I'm being left out of that, then God is abandoning me in favor of you guys, and I don't believe that for a second. And all of that is WHY I have not been this forthright in this post. I've tried to not be dogmatic, but what I'm posting is not being understood I don't think, so I'm having to be a bit more blunt I guess. Yet every one of you has posted something that has touched me and made me think, and which I've sincerely appreciated. I believe everyone here is sincere. But so was Saul of Tarsus. But he was wrong. Sincerity won't get you to Heaven. Ozark, I saw a guy pitch from the outfield once ........ he was really good!! And I agree that this is either the greatest hoax every perpetrated on man, or it's true and requires belief and action. It can't be 'just a good book that has a few nice truths in it'. Jesus claimed Divinity. Jesus claimed to have cheated death. The book claims to have the sole path to Heaven for all of man. Those are huge claims, and are huge lies if not true. So figuring all this out is REALLY important!! Having an honest heart and mind and admitting when we don't understand it perfectly is imperative. Interjecting what WE believe without comparing it to what GOD has told us in his Book is dangerous stuff. I'm not very bright; the Bible has some hard passages but it's not that hard to understand. www.biblegateway.com is a great site to help find passages in any translation. Hope I have not offended. If I'm wrong, we're all fine! If I'm right, we need further discussion and don't need to be at odds. I have great affection for all these faceless names that are trying to help me...........so I hope I'm not misunderstood.
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Post by davewolf on May 21, 2009 10:30:56 GMT -5
You certainly aren't putting me off. And I now understand more of where you are coming from. There is a scripture that says, something like this: sorry I don't have time to look it up. "Open you eyes and hearts and these words will become clear to you." meaning. as I read it, if you believe in his word, you will understand what has been written. From your last post, I get that you have been 'born again' and I don't believe you need to have a "wow' feeling. I guess what I don't fully understand is the "fear." As long as your studying the word and practicing it to the best of your ability then I believe you are one with God. As a Christian, you and I will be "tested" time and again, remember we will even be mocked and scorned by men who think they're wiser than God. I can't judge the faceless and I wouldn't judge them if they had a face. Make you a deal, you pray for me and I'll pray for you, for I'm not without sin and repetitive sin. Thanks for your reply, and may God Bless and Comfort you, Dave
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Post by whyohe on May 21, 2009 10:46:47 GMT -5
buckrub, you are right. i feel in my beliefs the same as you on some things. you are right IMO that GOD doest call a person to do things. it is our choice. in the vefry beginning ist that the qurstion being brought up in the garden of eden? would man CHOOSE to follow and worship GOD ON HIS OWN CHOICE! look at Jobthe whole first chapter. Satan went before GOD and said that Jobe only worshiped HIM because HE protected him. So GOD LET Satan test HIS servant Job. Job proved faith ful by his CHOICE. not cause GOD influenced him.
I feel that if we chose to look for the truth about GOD and what he wants us to do then his HOLY SPIRIT will HELP to guide us to HIS understanding. but we have to work to get it and prove our worthyness. Galations 5:16 KEEP walking by the spirit and you will carry out no fleshy desire at all. so the spirit works with us not for us.
also if God only chose some to be led by the Holy Spirit would that not be contradiciting to to the sripture (wich i cant find right now) that HE does not want to see any die.why only inspire some to follow. HE inspires thoes that want to follow HIM.
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Post by ozark on May 21, 2009 12:08:54 GMT -5
The question seems to have surfaced that God deals with all the same. That He is no respecter of persons. It is my belief that He dealt with Saul one way, Job another way, used Moses differently than others. I agree that the Bible should be studied and that we can extract from it much knowledge and get a better understanding about the nature of God. But, there are many who cannot read at all and even more who cannot understand. Many cannot hear and worldwide many many will never know of the Bible Christians use. I visualize God as being the God of all people and fair enough to offer everyone an opportunity to serve Him. I don't know if Jesus (God on earth) appeared before the American Indians, the Mormans or the natives of some small island in the Pacfic. If He is no respecter of persons then it seems to me that he would not just be the saviour of those who he encountered in the holy land.. I think God is the God of Christians and the God of all the other folks in the world. I am aware that only through Jesus Christ is the hope of salvation. I am not aware that the one born in the manger is the only Savior that God has used. Obviously, He can see the hearts and minds of many at the same time. I don't limit His possibilities or limits. I believe the bible but understand that some of what Jesus said were parabales and not specific facts. I doubt that it is meant for us to all believe the same. Some of us are to serve in one capacity while others are to serve in another. I do strongly believe that He deals with people through the Bible and through the Holy Spirit. You can read the Bible and get a feeling that it means a certain thing. You can also get a feeling directly through the Holy Ghost. If you do or when you do isn't yours to choose. It is a decision not of man. Buckrub I like the strength you have in your beliefs and for you I feel that is precisely how Gods wants it. It may well be taylor made specifically for Buckrub to fit his special needs for beleiving. Ben
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