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Post by stanb8 on Aug 18, 2014 11:15:00 GMT -5
Anyone have any info on accuracy and grouping 200-300 yds. Out. What would be your preferred break open rifle and barrel combo. Anyone have any for sale 50cal.? Thanks
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Post by 10ga on Aug 18, 2014 11:52:25 GMT -5
Welcome to the board stanb8. Lots of SML info here and no danger of getting flamed. We'll help any way we can. As for break action SML they are way better than smokers. Good as any to 300. MOA is the regular standard and with load development should be easy to get, or get back with the builder and get another barrel that will do it. To get a dedicated 50 cal SML break open the easiest and about the only way I know is a SMI barrel for action of your choice. I have 1 break action, Encore, and know of lots more, H&R Encore etc..., here and locally but they are all 45 cal. All are accurate and some are super accurate but personal choice and fit are the important parts. Mostly 45-70 conversions and a few built as 45 cals from get go ala MGM and Bulberry etc... More posters will chime in but a break open action 50 cal SML is kinda rare, like I don't know of any. All the 50 cal ML I know of are smokers. Good luck, 10 ga
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Post by stanb8 on Aug 18, 2014 13:43:34 GMT -5
Thanks, I had a encore and traded it and got a savage ml, I did not know about the smi barrels and I do not like the savage bolt cycle. Does anyone have any data on the effective range and accuracy of the encore or H&R and Douglas barrel in 45 and 50 cal. Thanks
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curt
8 Pointer
Posts: 158
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Post by curt on Aug 18, 2014 14:20:42 GMT -5
I have a NEF (same as H&R) 45 caliber 1-20 twist that I had SMI build for me. It shoots right w/ my Savage ML-11 w/ a 45 caliber barrel <1MOA. The only difference is the SMI does not recommended to shoot sabotless so I shoot the 200 SST and the 195 BX w/ the light blue sabots. If you are going to build one go with the 45 caliber you will not regret it. I do not see 300 yds being a problem when you can push a 200 gr bullet at 2700fps+
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 14:22:37 GMT -5
Another one that wasn't mentioned was the CVA Apex I run 56 grains 4198 pushing a 200 SST saboted running around 2670-2700. I'm shooting a CVA optima elite which are hard to find. The apex has an adjustable trigger. If I get another break action it will be the apex.
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Post by rambler on Aug 18, 2014 14:37:50 GMT -5
I just got an SMI 45 cal 1:22 on my H&R receiver. Still getting the BP fitted with a tungsten bushing but I intend on shooting upwards towards 70gr of IMR4198 with a sabotless 275 or 300 MH. Or BE whichever is handy I'm told they fit a Douglas with no sizing.
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Post by speedrackin on Aug 18, 2014 15:16:08 GMT -5
well its been a long time since Ive been here . Family issues wrk , farm and everything else in life . Surprised that no one from the challenge has mentioned . Hankins break open conversion ....... and i understand for the most part it was a bolt action group. That's fine but Jeff has developed a break open with his ignition system. He started with an H&R with a factory fitted Buffalo classic 32 in barrel 1n 20 twist . He then removed 3 " crowned the 29 " barrel. The drop became a sizer . Installed his ignition sym and made some special LMRP holder to work with the extractor . if im correct i belive it will work on a tc also . give him a shout and ck it out.
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Post by rangeball on Aug 18, 2014 15:35:03 GMT -5
well its been a long time since Ive been here . Family issues wrk , farm and everything else in life . Surprised that no one from the challenge has mentioned . Hankins break open conversion ....... and i understand for the most part it was a bolt action group. That's fine but Jeff has developed a break open with his ignition system. He started with an H&R with a factory fitted Buffalo classic 32 in barrel 1n 20 twist . He then removed 3 " crowned the 29 " barrel. The drop became a sizer . Installed his ignition sym and made some special LMRP holder to work with the extractor . if im correct i belive it will work on a tc also . give him a shout and ck it out. First I've heard of it.
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Post by rambler on Aug 18, 2014 15:37:39 GMT -5
Jeff told me he does H&R conversions. Should be a very good shooter.
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Post by 10ga on Aug 18, 2014 16:10:36 GMT -5
Thanks, I had a encore and traded it and got a savage ml, I did not know about the smi barrels and I do not like the savage bolt cycle. Does anyone have any data on the effective range and accuracy of the encore or H&R and Douglas barrel in 45 and 50 cal. Thanks For real data you need to lurk about and read through some of the posts (pages and pages of them) here and get the search engine going on this forum. I have found the range and accuracy to be much better than most shooters can do. with the 50 cals the issue quickly becomes one of recoil but if you can handle that the range is easily 300 to 500 yards in both the 50 and 45. Good equipment from barrel to powder/bullet/ignition combo and not least is good glass easily exceed most shooters. If you are hunting, a good SML will hit and kill deer as far as you feel confident with your personal skill. Some on the board here have made SML kills out to 500+ yards. Many regularly kill at 300+. Personally my long is 270 but I mostly woods hunt in the east and shots average about 55 yards for me. With a good SML outfit and a bit of practice a 6 to 10" group at 300 is easily attainable off the bench and better is certainly the goal. As I said, the limiting factor is usually the care and skill of the shooter not the limits of the equipment. Of course the more you try to overcome marginal limiting factors the law of diminishing returns to inputs kicks in and the higher $ cost of improvement becomes a factor for many of us(me). Give a better idea of where you want to be with your SML and hunting specifics and the advice can be more specific. Best, 10 ga
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Post by stanb8 on Aug 18, 2014 16:24:35 GMT -5
Thanks for all the replies, I have been reading a lot of info on the board and I guest my question would be: Which conversion would be the most cost effective and give you the most accuracy out to 300 to 400 yards? Which caliber and gun and who would you use to convert it for you? Thanks again
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Post by rambler on Aug 18, 2014 16:35:32 GMT -5
I think you would best be served buying a CVA Apex and having slufoot convert it with a Savage BP and tungsten bushing avail from Luke at Arrowhead Sporting Goods. It's has a 25" Bergara barrel at 1:20 twist and is stainless.
They are readily available. Total cost may be under $800 which is a great deal IMO.
I already had an H&R receiver when I had SMI do my conversion so I got buy cheaper.
The most economical build might be an H&R Handi rifle or the Buffalo classic converted by slufoot.
This is all from what I've read on the message board. A wealth of info from these guys
These are econo builds. When you're ready for the big show, get one of the bolt action builds from one of the guys on this board.
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Post by stanb8 on Aug 18, 2014 17:34:20 GMT -5
I have a h&r ultra receiver with 20 gauge slug barrel, if that receiver with a good barrel could get me 300-400 yds with a good grouping and 4-6" drop I would be happy. any advise on this?
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Post by bestill on Aug 18, 2014 19:10:11 GMT -5
Cva apex45/70 and convert you wont regret it. Great woods rifle will shoot moa to 300 yds with match hunters or ballistic extreme with no sizing.
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Post by superkirby on Aug 19, 2014 0:50:51 GMT -5
The H&R is probably going to be the cheapest option, even if you can't use your frame. I don't know if the 20 ga. frame is the same or different. I believe most people want an SB2 frame for the 45-70 conversions. Personally I have a TC and had MGM make a 20" .45 muzzleloader barrel for it, and I gotta say I absolutely love it. I don't have the time into it yet to tell you what it will do for range, but if I were able to do my part I don't doubt it would do 250 easily. The people that have the Apex conversions are also very happy with them. It all just depends on what exactly you want and how much you want to spend.
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Post by rangeball on Aug 19, 2014 8:57:44 GMT -5
I have a h&r ultra receiver with 20 gauge slug barrel, if that receiver with a good barrel could get me 300-400 yds with a good grouping and 4-6" drop I would be happy. any advise on this? SMI can put a douglas on it and it will shoot great, that will be about your only option as H&R will not fit a barrel to that frame. The breech plug contains the psi so the frame doesn't matter to SMI. Then you need to decide between .50 and .45, and for your desired performance level, that seems to call for .45 and a high BC bullet at higher speed. Even then I don't think your goal is realistic as a 300gr MH at 2700 fps zeroed at 200 yds is 2" high and 6.5" low at 280 yds, 25" low at 400. Still has loads of energy at range, but you will need to account for more drop than you are wanting. Just the physical reality of external ballistics. If you go the SMI route in a .45 don't mention sabotless. They are against it on principle, there is no reason their guns won't shoot sabotless. You could try to buy a used H&R .458 and hope it fits your frame and have slufoot convert it for you, but I bet there aren't many used .458s out there.
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Post by wvboy on Aug 19, 2014 9:01:11 GMT -5
Cva apex45/70 and convert you wont regret it. Great woods rifle will shoot moa to 300 yds with match hunters or ballistic extreme with no sizing. So you can shoot Match Hunters in the .45 cal with no sizing? I am new to all this SML stuff.. just got a Bergera Barrel converted for my encore frame.. got a 2 inch group last weekend at 100 yds with 195 grain barnes expanders and the harvester light blue sabots and 57 grains of H4198.. about a 4 inch drop at 200 yds .. I had dug around on here about going Sabotless but I thought you had to get a sizing dye to go that route with a .45 cal..
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Post by rambler on Aug 19, 2014 9:04:11 GMT -5
Don't get in a hurry if you go with SMI and they will want to sell you a 50 cal. They'll do a 45 but like rangeball states don't even mention sabotless or they'll have a cow.
Mine took all of 8 months....but very good workmanship. Also if you go with SMI have them install a provided Savage BP with the tungsten liner. Theirs is of a softer material and the Savage with the tungsten bushing will last a very long time.
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Post by 1gifford on Aug 19, 2014 9:28:23 GMT -5
Get an Apex 45-70. Slufoot will have your gun back to you in about a week.
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Post by rambler on Aug 19, 2014 9:30:22 GMT -5
+1 with 1gifford. And install a Savage plug with tungsten bushing from Luke at Arrowhead Sporting Goods
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Post by rangeball on Aug 19, 2014 10:11:11 GMT -5
Cva apex45/70 and convert you wont regret it. Great woods rifle will shoot moa to 300 yds with match hunters or ballistic extreme with no sizing. So you can shoot Match Hunters in the .45 cal with no sizing? I am new to all this SML stuff.. just got a Bergera Barrel converted for my encore frame.. got a 2 inch group last weekend at 100 yds with 195 grain barnes expanders and the harvester light blue sabots and 57 grains of H4198.. about a 4 inch drop at 200 yds .. I had dug around on here about going Sabotless but I thought you had to get a sizing dye to go that route with a .45 cal.. Were you giving the barrel enough cool down time? You could try upping the charge a grain at a time up to say 62 to see if you can tighten things up a bit, or try knurling the bullet to get a better bite in the sabot, or both.
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Post by wvboy on Aug 19, 2014 10:46:05 GMT -5
I did Knurl the bullets.. I am pretty happy with 2 inches at 100 yds myself (do you not think that is a good group?).. , Out of 3 shots two of them were touching and one was about 2 inches high and maybe a .5 inch to the right.. I just wrote it off to shooter error..I may try upping the charge next time out but I don't want something that will kick too hard..
I was just asking about the match hunters and sabotless because from what I understood you have to size them for a .45 cal from reading posts on here, but this post from bestill confused me..
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Post by rambler on Aug 19, 2014 10:54:29 GMT -5
From what I'm told, it depends on the barrel weather you need to size a given type of bullet.
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Post by rangeball on Aug 19, 2014 12:28:14 GMT -5
I did Knurl the bullets.. I am pretty happy with 2 inches at 100 yds myself (do you not think that is a good group?).. , Out of 3 shots two of them were touching and one was about 2 inches high and maybe a .5 inch to the right.. I just wrote it off to shooter error..I may try upping the charge next time out but I don't want something that will kick too hard.. I was just asking about the match hunters and sabotless because from what I understood you have to size them for a .45 cal from reading posts on here, but this post from bestill confused me.. Nothing wrong with 2" but it's like golf, you can never shoot low enough, or small enough Third shot could have been barrel heat, who knows. I've shot 60gr in my rempac with the hsb and 195 bx and it's sub moa with minimal recoil. 62gr blows a sabot everytime. I agree with Rambler, until you have the barrel in your hand, you can't be positive what will be required regarding sizing to shoot sabotless. Not all barrels, even from the same manufacturer are created equal.
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Post by rambler on Aug 19, 2014 12:33:52 GMT -5
I have not shot mine as yet. I have pushed a parker 275BE down the bore and it felt very good. Not too hard, not too soft.
It's a Douglas 45 cal.
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Post by wvboy on Aug 19, 2014 13:23:35 GMT -5
. Nothing wrong with 2" but it's like golf, you can never shoot low enough, or small enough Third shot could have been barrel heat, who knows. I've shot 60gr in my rempac with the hsb and 195 bx and it's sub moa with minimal recoil. 62gr blows a sabot everytime. I agree with Rambler, until you have the barrel in your hand, you can't be positive what will be required regarding sizing to shoot sabotless. Not all barrels, even from the same manufacturer are created equal. Thanks.. I think I will try going up to maybe 59 grains the next time out and see what she does .. I will just stay under 60 to be safe and not blow a sabot .. my shots should never be over 200 yds anyway while hunting..
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Post by rangeball on Aug 19, 2014 13:26:13 GMT -5
Lots of guys shoot 62gr without issue. I can't because my bore is on the tighter side.
Experimenting can't hurt, and now you have a baseline for a known load to fall back on if nothing better presents itself.
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Post by 10ga on Aug 19, 2014 16:45:55 GMT -5
Stanb8, Lots of info flowing here and I know your head is spinning. Easiest way and cheapest way for you to get a 300 to 400 yard SML is relatively easy. Just put a pacnor barrel (Luke at Arrowhead has them) on your Savage MLII, get a good aftermarket laminated stock to your likeing and have rossman or hillbill or other smith or do it yourself pillar/bed/3rd action screw job. www.6mmbr.com/pillarbedding.html Put a steel 1 piece scope base and good rings with a good BDC scope and you'll be ready for action. remember these are ML guns and you only get 1 shot so make it a good one. You can do all this for = or less than a new break action with smith work, parts, shipping, wait times and etc... and you will have a top of the line 300 to 400 yard gun. This is my suggestion and easily the cheapest way for you to get a really good 300 to 400 yard SML. You already have the Savage MLII so go with that and upgrade to top of the line. $.02 10 ga
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Post by rambler on Aug 19, 2014 16:59:21 GMT -5
I overlooked the part about already having the Savage action +++1 on everything !0ga suggests.
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Post by rangeball on Aug 19, 2014 21:13:28 GMT -5
If you already have a savage action and your state allows it I'd look long and hard at a .40 conversion sabotless with the CEB V1 bullet. 45Omega is the guy who's brain I'd be picking the heck out of.
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