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Post by 7mmfreak on Jun 10, 2014 19:33:46 GMT -5
If it was possible for you to order a .458 or .451 bullet for sabotless in any configuration (assuming the only difference was tip not ogive shape) would you choose OTM (Open Tip Match like a Berger Hunting VLD), Polymer Tipped (Like Nosler BT or A-MAX), or Aluminum Tipped (like the Parker MH line)? Would it matter if they all had a similar BC but one was cheaper than the other; in order OTM, Polymer, Aluminum? Or would everyone still pay a premium for that last .0X0 increase in BC for Aluminum Tips? What jacket thickness would you want for these bullets for impact velocities resultant from muzzle velocities of 2300-2800fps? Would you pay a reasonable set-up fee to be able to order bullets in any quantity you wanted over 100 bullets?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 20:06:25 GMT -5
from the makers stand point a .451 would be more marketable due to all the land rider shooters, polymer tipped would likely be somewhat cheaper and still be user friendly.
as far as jacket thickness I think the match hunter is about right but I don't remember the thickness, .030?
a set up fee would not be unreasonable, group buys can get the cost down but it would need to be tested at length before many would jump on the wagon
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Post by 7mmfreak on Jun 10, 2014 20:32:28 GMT -5
If I were going to make just one I would agree that a .451 makes the most sense but I could make a .458 and size it to .451 also so that both parties can FF or smooth form. My gun is a .442/.451 so if there is no interest in a .458 I am not going to bother with the larger die or the Class 6 FFL and NC business license to keep this legit; I will just get a .451 and make them for me and gift some to friends for R&D purposes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 20:37:31 GMT -5
Good luck with it....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 20:47:13 GMT -5
Good idea SML! I'll take mine .451( mcgowen ready preferred), polymer tipped, around 300gr and I want the jacket .030"+ at the front of the bearing surface and .018" at the base. Best of both worlds but probably impossible from a manufacturing standpoint? I am very interested in the push for more deletion of high performance bullets in 45 cal. Luke and Parker make some great bullets but I like to try new things all the time. Any idea on a rough price for a selected quantity?
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Post by Dave W on Jun 10, 2014 21:57:44 GMT -5
.451 for my .442/.451 or .450/.457. Somewhere in the MH .028 jacket range. Probably poly tip.
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Post by cowhunter on Jun 10, 2014 22:59:16 GMT -5
Is the Cutting Edge all copper VLD like the Berger VLD--with a little tiny hollow point? I hate to sound like a broken record but I love the .416 all copper CE at 340 grains. It has a .780 BC (they once said 750), but it really carries the energy. I have one little doubt relating to how well it expands. I've had one great hair test and one bizarre/horrible result. One cool concept it incorporates and which they may use in the .458 prototype is the hollowed out base. I wonder what effect that hollowed out base has on expansion and otherwise. It apparently doesn't slow it down.
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Post by smokelessindian84 on Jun 10, 2014 23:10:23 GMT -5
How much lighter would an all copper duplicate of the 325 MH bullet be compared to the actual lead core bullet? Would the all copper bullet stabalize just the same as the original lead core bullet? More B.C. with less weight?
This is direct from CEBs site
Using Solid copper bullets requires a different way of thinking than with jacketed lead core bullets. Since copper is lighter and less dense than lead, it is not practical to make very heavy bullets without making them extremely long. Very long bullets require a much faster twist barrel to stabilize them, which are not standard on factory rifles, and become unstable quicker. Thus, the use of lighter bullets requires "thinking faster" instead of heavier. A lighter bullet with a high ballistic coefficient shot at faster speeds has less drop at all ranges than heavy jacketed bullets. Energy is slightly less and wind drift is virtually the same.
Copper weight density is 79% of what lead weight density is. Not considering the jacket on the MH bullets this should equate to a lead core 275 MH weighing 217 gr. in an all copper form and the 325 MH weighing 257 gr. in an all copper form. Of course the tip would have to be a HP to make it expand properly.
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Post by airborneike on Jun 10, 2014 23:41:38 GMT -5
Keith,
I'm in...451 or 452....Partial to OTM and thinner jackets but tipped bullets are good too. The legal aspect can be a headache, all that you stated plus the ITAR fee to the state dept but don't be too discouraged cause if you make a good product (know that you will) there is a good market.
Where do I send my check for the 1st 100? :-)
Mike
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Post by 7mmfreak on Jun 11, 2014 9:00:28 GMT -5
Good idea SML! I'll take mine .451( mcgowen ready preferred), polymer tipped, around 300gr and I want the jacket .030"+ at the front of the bearing surface and .018" at the base. Best of both worlds but probably impossible from a manufacturing standpoint? I am very interested in the push for more deletion of high performance bullets in 45 cal. Luke and Parker make some great bullets but I like to try new things all the time. Any idea on a rough price for a selected quantity? I can get jackets that are .032" with no taper or can get jackets that taper from .030" to .019" and only making them and testing them will allow for a decision but I can get them in quantities as small as 100 so testing remains economical. The option exists to make jackets as well but I am going to start with pre-formed jackets and draw them down to .45 caliber. I think an OTM bullet can be made for under $2 dollars and a poly-tipped bullet for a few cents more. The difference being I need a separate die to make a good poly tip and the die will cost an additional $500. An aluminum tipped bullet requires yet another die for the same dollar figure. That is why I am trying to gauge interest. I have shot OTM bullets for years now with total satisfaction and am inclined to start there but if there is enough interest I would entertain the idea of Poly-Tipped as well. Right now there are good Aluminum tipped bullets from RMB through Parker and Luke and I only want to try that if I am successful with the OTM and Poly bullets and we are trying to eak out the last little bit of BC but I don't want to expand overhead right now to find out I have immediately hit a point of diminishing returns. Is the Cutting Edge all copper VLD like the Berger VLD--with a little tiny hollow point? I hate to sound like a broken record but I love the .416 all copper CE at 340 grains. It has a .780 BC (they once said 750), but it really carries the energy. I have one little doubt relating to how well it expands. I've had one great hair test and one bizarre/horrible result. One cool concept it incorporates and which they may use in the .458 prototype is the hollowed out base. I wonder what effect that hollowed out base has on expansion and otherwise. It apparently doesn't slow it down. I do not have the ability to turn copper bullets. I could, further down the line, make a jacketed bullet with sintered copper core. This is a project I cannot take on right now. I think to get a copper or guilding metal up to the BC you are after will push it close to 500gr. How much lighter would an all copper duplicate of the 325 MH bullet be compared to the actual lead core bullet? Would the all copper bullet stabalize just the same as the original lead core bullet? More B.C. with less weight? This is direct from CEBs site Using Solid copper bullets requires a different way of thinking than with jacketed lead core bullets. Since copper is lighter and less dense than lead, it is not practical to make very heavy bullets without making them extremely long. Very long bullets require a much faster twist barrel to stabilize them, which are not standard on factory rifles, and become unstable quicker. Thus, the use of lighter bullets requires "thinking faster" instead of heavier. A lighter bullet with a high ballistic coefficient shot at faster speeds has less drop at all ranges than heavy jacketed bullets. Energy is slightly less and wind drift is virtually the same. Copper weight density is 79% of what lead weight density is. Not considering the jacket on the MH bullets this should equate to a lead core 275 MH weighing 217 gr. in an all copper form and the 325 MH weighing 257 gr. in an all copper form. Of course the tip would have to be a HP to make it expand properly. I think an all copper copy of the 327MH would be around 266gr. If that were the case the G1 BC would be in the ballpark of .372
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Post by linebaugh on Jun 11, 2014 9:04:51 GMT -5
7mm, Don't forget the 6% excise tax applied to each bullet sold. The cost of making bullets and the steps to get from point A to market are a pain in the butt. There are some ways around all these problems, don't manufacture them yourself... outsource your idea. At that point all you need is your tax stamp and any other local business related goodies.
This may be an odd idea to most but why not make a bullet in the .454 range? At this point you could still full form and you should have better luck sizing down to run smooth. Sizing from .458 down to .451 in my experience has been a tall order. It may well be there are tricks I don't know about.
As for the tips. I know as well as you probably do that the aluminum tips will be adding .15$ - .20$ per bullet just for the tip alone. That is a major kick in the pants but if you are looking for the ultimate BC it's going to be the way to go.
On a related note. Has anybody on here considered building better sabots so we could utilize well under-bore bullets. I know it's been done by Edge but it's also been done on deer slugs, military weapons and others. I don't personally know if it's feasible (cost wise) to have sabots run on cnc equipment or if there are tougher plastics that would allow injetion molding but if someone could figure it out and the price was reasonable it might be a better alternative.
Always enjoy your posts 7mm, keep the ideas coming.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Jun 11, 2014 9:06:02 GMT -5
Mike,
I hadn't even thought about ITAR. I'm glad you brought that up. You know you are the first gate these bullets have to pass before I let anyone else have a whack at them. Lead time on bullet forming dies is about 6 months right now though. Everyone who makes dies is backlogged right now.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Jun 11, 2014 9:20:28 GMT -5
7mm, Don't forget the 6% excise tax applied to each bullet sold. The cost of making bullets and the steps to get from point A to market are a pain in the butt. There are some ways around all these problems, don't manufacture them yourself... outsource your idea. At that point all you need is your tax stamp and any other local business related goodies. This may be an odd idea to most but why not make a bullet in the .454 range? At this point you could still full form and you should have better luck sizing down to run smooth. Sizing from .458 down to .451 in my experience has been a tall order. It may well be there are tricks I don't know about. As for the tips. I know as well as you probably do that the aluminum tips will be adding .15$ - .20$ per bullet just for the tip alone. That is a major kick in the pants but if you are looking for the ultimate BC it's going to be the way to go. On a related note. Has anybody on here considered building better sabots so we could utilize well under-bore bullets. I know it's been done by Edge but it's also been done on deer slugs, military weapons and others. I don't personally know if it's feasible (cost wise) to have sabots run on cnc equipment or if there are tougher plastics that would allow injetion molding but if someone could figure it out and the price was reasonable it might be a better alternative. Always enjoy your posts 7mm, keep the ideas coming. I also had not considered the excise tax. Like I mentioned just now in regard to Mike's post, this is not going to be my livelihood; I'm a federal employee with a less than stable schedule. This may become a bullet think tank that accepts charitable contributions and writes off the cost of bullets for R&D. Your point about Aluminum tips follows my thoughts exactly. I do not want to make a bullet to compete with what is being contracted through RMB by Luke or Parker. I want a similar bullet that guys can afford to shoot but offers better flight characteristics than the XTP/FTX/etc. The best way I know to describe it is I want to be to the MH line what the Nosler CC is to the Sierra Match King. I shoot Noslers CCs by the bucket but change over to the SMK for matches with neglible data shifts. That said I can always shoot the Noslers and be a threat to competitors and I want this bullet to fill that role. Right now I am trying to guage whether or not I have a reason to spend a chambered barrel's worth of cash on an extra die (whether for Poly or Aluminum) that I do not NEED to fulfill my personal goals. I am willing to do it now or later though if there is enough interest. As for sabots I think it is a worthwile exploration. I was involved in a sabot project for Designated Slug Guns where we invested in having sabots made to take .58 caliber bullets instead of the .50 caliber which is commonly seen. It worked but the sabot material was no better and you still had all the normal sabot issues. Finding someone who could make Edge style PVC might be harder.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Jun 11, 2014 10:52:46 GMT -5
Additionally, what are everyone's thoughts on boat-tails? I know some say they are not good in muzzleloaders but I do not hold that to be a true statement; maybe true in sabot but not sabotless. The reason I ask is because you will need a new punch to push them through your sizing die. If they could be had to match the bullet boattail (after testing verified it worked) would you want a boattailed bullet or would you stick with a flat base so that you didn't need a new punch?
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Post by edge on Jun 11, 2014 11:18:25 GMT -5
Hollow point bullets are easier to make and generally more consistent and are almost the only choice in long range. Depending on how full the jacket is with lead, you may distort the point if you have high loading pressure with a jag not made for the specific bullet. Very small hollow points can "plug" the hollow and then they may act as a fmj bullet and pencil through.
Any tipped bullet adds some variable in concentricity which will result in accuracy issues at long range. Tips add cost and additional operations. Tipped bullets generally open very reliably. Tipped bullets can dramatically boost BC on an otherwise large open point.
edge.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 12:12:13 GMT -5
Flat based .451's with polly tip and some Flat based .400's with the polly tip if ya don't mind. sounds interesting, hope it works out, I'd try some out if they become available!
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Post by Richard on Jun 11, 2014 13:18:11 GMT -5
I would definitely go with the OTM's with a boat tail (if it would work-sabot-less?) All my 600 and 1K bullets are OTM's and I have no complaint with accuracy. Adding tips is just another avenue for imbalance, as was mentioned. It is akin to cutting a match grade chamber with ONE reamer vs. using one for the body and shoulder and another for the neck and leade. NOT the best situation. I would definitely be in the market for the .451/2 variety. Richard
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Post by 7mmfreak on Jun 11, 2014 13:40:52 GMT -5
Flat based .451's with polly tip and some Flat based .400's with the polly tip if ya don't mind. sounds interesting, hope it works out, I'd try some out if they become available! OG, .400" bullets will be down the road pending a successful .451" design and me building a .392/.400 or .400/.408 gun. While I'm in the Army this will never be a high production operation. We'll re-attack the .400" caliber question if and when the need arises. Do you mind explaining the choice of flat base? It is not an additional overhead expense for me (the boat-tail punch is tho), I'm just curious. My only concern with the boat-tail is it would preclude the use of over powder wads (wool or veggie) and sometimes those same wads seem to seal a load and make it shoot when before it offered unacceptable precision.
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Post by Jon on Jun 11, 2014 14:21:19 GMT -5
Watching with interest.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 14:42:43 GMT -5
I would guess the flat base will leave you more open to marketing saboted to the 50 users, myself I would like to see a boattail bullet.
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Post by cowhunter on Jun 11, 2014 15:58:22 GMT -5
Happy birthday Fishhawk. Today is his 50th birthday as noted by the 50 candles. Either that or this is a picture of me annealing a box of 50 boattail CE bullets. The boattail bullet does not need a different punch than the flat based bullet. The punch used for the flat base also pushes the boattail along just fine. The boattail is still flat on the bottom -- it just does not have as much flat area. You can still stand the boattail bullets up on a burner to anneal them. These 340 grain boattail bullets also have a large cavity in the back end of the bullet so that they could make the bullet as long as the 375 grain bullet. I think that is a neat trick for getting the smoothest surface possible for the best BC possible.
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Post by deadeye on Jun 11, 2014 15:58:32 GMT -5
keith- I think also a good source of bullet info would be a conversation w/ tom post @ swinglock. I think there is a market. for me I don't know but will try anything that is accurate especially out long. the .458 poll results were very interesting(weight -wise) imo here for a small full form crowd. hope you have great success! will be looking for a future order form! ps- don Lahr's bullets for my 6br just weighed recently were all within .02 of a grain in weight & deadon on ogive length www.precisionballisticsllc.com/would be great to see a mz bullet somewhat close to his spec's per lot#s
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Post by 7mmfreak on Jun 11, 2014 16:28:25 GMT -5
Jeff, I was waiting for your input. I will get hold of Tom and Dave to pick their brains. The best thing about this die set is that by switching punches I can alter bullet weight to support your polling results (the catalyst for this idea).
Cowhunter,
I am sure the punch pushes mono-metals through the die without a hitch. I don't know that you NEED a counter-sunk punch for lead core boat-tails but I don't think it is wrong to plan for the need since we are talking thin jackets and pure lead cores. I feel like it would be better supported. Have you ever pushed a lead core boat-tail through your FF die?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 16:48:44 GMT -5
I was thinking flat base for a few reasons, seemed like it would be easier and possibly cheaper to produce, they would still allow for use of a wad and from some past conversations it seemed that the boattail design wasn't working out in a fullform small bore gun. That being said, if the more experienced here think they will work and we can try some and they do, then I'm game on the BT design. I'm by no means knocking it. Just seems like the FB bullets perform well on a wide platform. I'm all for newer and better if it will work.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Jun 11, 2014 17:05:35 GMT -5
OG,
Thanks for the feedback. I was just curious. I got to thinking about wads for BT's and wondered if you could take a donut wad and glue it to a solid wad so it fit around the boat tail like a koozie to create a seal for slip fit bullets.
Jeff,
You may have just ruined this for everyone by engaging my anal-retentive, obsessive, inner perfectionist by providing that link and now I will take this project way over budget. I have seen his bullets mentioned before but never pursued them. Now I feel like that is the standard. At least Mike just said he knew I would make a good bullet and left it at that without putting me on the path to Xanax.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 17:31:52 GMT -5
OTMs would definitely be easier to make and to do so on a consistent basis. the .458 bullet is definitely not out of the question BUT there are not that many guys here with FF dies to make use of it, I can but then I have dies. a .458 to be used FF would definitely need to be a BT to make as much bc as possible. BTs shot FF don't seem to care since there is no wad. on the other hand a BT .451 would definitely need a donut wad with a base to work well IMO..
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 17:44:04 GMT -5
I think if you made a .451 bullet that was like the Berger bullet, high BC, .30 jacket thickness, in a hollow point that is designed to take the Corbin aluminum tip with no modification. You just ordered the bulk pack of Corbin tips and installed yourself. I would think that would keep cost down but probably not.
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Post by deadeye on Jun 11, 2014 18:07:03 GMT -5
OG, Thanks for the feedback. I was just curious. I got to thinking about wads for BT's and wondered if you could take a donut wad and glue it to a solid wad so it fit around the boat tail like a koozie to create a seal for slip fit bullets. Jeff, You may have just ruined this for everyone by engaging my anal-retentive, obsessive, inner perfectionist by providing that link and now I will take this project way over budget. I have seen his bullets mentioned before but never pursued them. Now I feel like that is the standard. At least Mike just said he knew I would make a good bullet and left it at that without putting me on the path to Xanax. keith-call don you are in for at least an hour of discussion he is a wealth of knowledge & knows his stuff. even though not mz I'm sure he will give pointers,etc if you wish. just looking around his website is somewhat educational.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 18:34:26 GMT -5
Hopefully some more folks jump on the .392/.400 or .400/.408 bandwagon in the future so we can have strength in numbers to get some more good higher bc bullets for them. I hate to see you building a better bullet for the .442, Dave's already shooting sub moa groups to 200, he gets a better bullet, I'll really have my work cut out for me, may even have to resort to foul play to get him!!! Haha cool stuff you're working on, watching with interest either way. The .451 version may just make my hillbill mcrem sing...
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Post by jims on Jun 11, 2014 18:48:47 GMT -5
This is not to start an argument as many have had success with boattails. Not so much with me, I would prefer a flat base. Even Joseph Von Benedikt, Hunting Editor, of Shooting Times recently mentioned in the July 2014 issue on page 66, "like many rifles, the CZ 557 seemed to prefer flatbase bullets." Again I know many shoot boattails well but just listing my preferences. Interesting information here.
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