I loaded some of these for the first time. I seated to the cannelure and applied a crimp. I noticed that they seemed a little long and wondered if they would cycle in my lever gun. Nope. I end up seating to std COL. So why do they put a cannelure on these? What would it ever be used for?
I'm fairly new to reloading 30-30 and every load I've used, the cannelure is used to crimp the brass into. These being made just for the 30-30 seems weird that the cannelure doesn't even come into play
Post by wilmsmeyer on Apr 27, 2014 10:58:41 GMT -5
I went to the link and Slufoot is right on. I feel stupid...I never thought about that and only thought that the 160 FTX was made for the 30-30. I guess I can play around with them and see how they work. My 5 shot group yesterday was vertically strung over 3 1/2" and only 1" Left to right.
I have a few loads that make nice evenly dispersed clusters so not sure why that load strung vertically like that. I wondered about my rest but also shot a new load in my 7mm Mag that went into one ragged hole of about 3/8" ctc off the same setup.
That 7mm is one awesome accurate gun with the 175 gr. Either factory or hand loads are always under 1". The lightest I've gone is a 150 Scirocco and with 4 different recipes can't do better than 2". The 160 Noslers also shoot little clusters under an inch but always seem to throw 1 shot out of the group enough to make me have a fit.
The load that shot so good was 57 gr IMR4350 and the 175 gr sierra game king. Standard non-mag federal primers and shells trimmed to max trim length and bullets seated to standard factory COL. I shoot at a 2" square with a 1/2" black border around it. Through the scope I could't see any holes at all and wondered if I was missing the 10" paper plate that I drew the square on. Nope. They were all in that thin 1/2" black border centered 1 1/4" above POA. I went home with a giggle.
I've been getting into the habit of shooting all my groups on paper plates. I can document everything on them, save the groups and they stack real nice on the shelf on my bench
Those bullets are fine in a .30-30 but you just have to seat them deeper than the cannelure. You can still crimp them. I shoot a lot of non-cannelure bullets with crimps with really good precision.
As for your stringing problem I would guess it is either a crimp or forearm problem. The thing that will ruin lever-gun precision and accuracy really quickly is a forearm that is too tight. If it is not the forearm I would look at my crimp. Depending on the type of crimp die you use trim length is really critical. I am normally a Redding or Forster die advocate but I don't think anybody makes a crimp die better than Lee.
I have a 7mm Rem Mag that is the same way. It will shoot anything 160gr or over really well. Anything under that will shoot a cluster and then throw one. It's been bedded, re-crowned, and fed hundreds of rounds in load development but finally I decided it either had to shoot heavies or get a new barrel. Eventually, I started shooting 162gr or heavier bullets in all of my 7mm rifles.
Post by wilmsmeyer on Apr 27, 2014 15:58:03 GMT -5
I hear it from more than one pro on the 7mm Mag and heavy bullets. Regarding the 30-30 info...thanks. I want this to be my short range woods stand gun. I guess even 2-3 inch groups are acceptable but it's always nice to have a thread-the-needle load in ANY gun. I have other loads that shoot very well so not sure my gun has a "structural" issue. I have a lot of time to mess around.
Good to know I can still use these. After my few posts today I went down to the bench and YES...these bullets are for the 308 Marlin....says it right on the box. What a dope I am. Hate when I make dumb mistakes.
Having a ball testing ammo this spring. Been awhile since I had this fever.
My go to dirty 30 is a 788 bolt gun, it does not like the 160's but will clover leaf with 170's. My encore does very, very well with the 160s. But food for thought if your gun prefers the 170's why mess with spz bullets in a "short range bush gun" there really isn't any gain that I can see for a under 200 yd situation. My 340 likes 170s also but it's 2-3" inch gun, I doubt it goes to the woods as I have better choices. Oh I really figure a 30-30 is a good strong 150 yard gun, pushing to 200 is ok but I don't do it but ballistic programs say the things still have enough energy
Last Edit: Apr 27, 2014 20:19:27 GMT -5 by rjhans53
In the mood to play with this gun. 30-30 round and flat nose have been tough to find. I was on the hunt for anything that would work when I cam across them. For what I need this gun for, there is NO advantage to using the FTX's. Any ballistic chart will show no material gain out to 200 yds. I just wondered if they would shoot good. One group is not enough to tell so I will play with them some more. If after 40-50 rounds they still don't do well I'll be looking for someone with a .308 Marlin. LOL
I understand both of the reasons you are shooting them. They shoot very well out of my dirty 06 sitting on 53 gr of 4895, I to got them when I couldn't find anything else (I'm better now) but if I can get them to shoot in my granddaughters 308 at about 2300, it should be a good 150 yard load and she should be able to shoot them without it bothering her to much
You have to trim the brass shorter. I did some 45/70's and it's the same thing. With out good crimp your loosing a LOT of PSI and speed. An extra "Crimp" die is even better to get a GOOD crimp, it'll increase the speed by over 100 fps on my 45/70's PERSONALY I don't like them, they seam to be way to fragile to be a good deer bullet in my mind. I went back to my Hornady 300's or a 300 gr Barnes. PS I use A 250 gr Barnes load that will go almost 2700 fps in my CB marlin...
DO to the increasing cost of energy, Gas,and Electricity. The Down turn in the economy. The light at the END of the TUNNEL is Now TURNED OFF!!!
It’s ironic that you should start this thread on the 30/30 reloading as I was recently approached by a friend to also do some reloads for him. He wants 2-different loads to try.
In the picture the 140-Mono-Flex has 2-cannelures and when positioned for crimping is .025” over the COL. For the 160-Flex Tip when positioned on the original cannelure is .160” over the COL. I’m trying to add an additional cannelure that reduces the over-run of the COL to .080”. I’ll be running the 2-lesser over-run on the COL un-crimped rounds through his 30/30 this week to see what happens.
You are correct that I have the 160gr FTX meant for the Marlin. That part # is 30396 and the correct # for the 30-30 is 30395.
My friend happened to have a loaded factory box of 160gr FTX for the 30-30 and the COL was 2.535”. It appears the nose is slightly shorter on the 160gr FTX part #30395. For the 140gr mono flex bullet part #30310 the recommended COL is 2.570”. The recommended COL for the 30-30 is supposed to be 2.550”, go figure.
Anyway tried some trial test for cycling the 160gr FTX #30396 that I so far manage to keep the COL to .080” over and got the following results. Winchester 30-30 would not allow cycling from tube magazine. Marlin 30-30 I had a slight catching on bullet nose. Tapped the bullet in approximately .015” and it would cycle.
Not sure what direction I’ll take just yet as I need to study this some more.
Just a final note from my previous experience at the range with the 30/30.
I loaded up a bunch of 140gr Mono-Flex loads with different powder levels of LeverEvolution. Surprisingly the max load of 34grs (compression load) shot the best. This IMO will be one nasty deer load for sure. All the shooting was done by the owner of the 30/30 and even with his inconsistency on the bench he did produce at least at 1” group at 50yds that he claims was good for him. Normally he deer hunts in woodlots where most shots are seldom over 75yds. Next range visit will be for sighting in his scope to the new load and I plan on taking my .223 out for some 100yd exercise, okay exercise for this shooter.
As for the 160 FTX designated for the 308 Marlin I decided not to try adapting it for the 30/30. It just doesn’t seem feasible for an accurate load IMO.
Post by wilmsmeyer on Aug 10, 2014 14:21:11 GMT -5
You and me both Ed! Finally got some of these last week thru Cabela's.
This morning I loaded 3 rounds of 2 different combo's of powder. All with Std Federal primers. All cases trimmed and the flash holes deburred. All Winchester cases.
1st load is 32 gr Win 748 2nd load is 33.2 gr H4895.
Probably won't shoot these for a week or two but I can't wait. I only have a few 170 gr bullets as they are hard to find for some reason. I am saving the 100 or so that I have for hunting. The heavier bullets have shown a distinct accuracy advantage over the 150's I've tried so far. I've shot a few hundred 150'sI'm hoping that the 160's will tighten up my 2-3" 100 yd groups.
I really can't imagine a better deer cartridge for the 200 yds and less hunters if you have accuracy to go with it. More than enough power and penetration and more limited tissue damage which will save meat. Even with a hard butt plate, the recoil isn't that bad off the bench.
Hope to get out to the range this week for my friend to try. Will let you know when the jury comes back in after a trip to the range. Have gone with LVR powder and Winchester LR primers. For testing loads I have decided on 33, 34 and 35grains of LVR. Whichever shoots best that will be his load. I agree this does make for a nice all around deer cartridge.
I personally have not shot his 30/30 yet and am getting him to shoot the test loads as he will be the primary user. I just make sure he takes his time when firing the test loads and then evaluate the target. Once a good load is found where quantity can be loaded then I’ll join him for some shooting sessions.
Finally managed some range time again with the 30/30 loads. The owner of the Marlin 30/30 did all the shooting at this session. The best load accuracy for the 140gr Mono-Flex was 34gr-LVR and for the 160gr FTX 33gr-LVR. The shooter does mostly close range bush shooting and was happy with the results he was getting over store bought ammo even though I would not have been as happy. But then again I wasn’t doing the shooting and from my observation his shooting technique IMO is somewhat lacking.
So time to load about a 100-rounds to start with and in return bank a few pickerel fishing trips on his boat in the future.
For doing a basic accuracy test for the 160gr FTX I loaded 4-rounds for each powder load of LVR consisting of 33-34-35grs. Because of his undeveloped shooting skills I took the best 3 out of each group. Again the target was at 50yds and bullet imprints were nice round holes. The measured results were, 33gr-7/8”, 34gr-1.125” and 35gr -2.5”. I was a little surprised at what 2-grns difference really made with this rifle. I know this Marlin lever action can still do better as the shooter mentioned his other friend who has some shooting experience produced better groups with this rifle.
All casings were , -Trimmed to plus or minus .001” to recommended length -Flash holes were de-burred and slightly chamfered inside -All loads crimped just enough to notice all around crimp. In this case after crimp die made contact with casing an additional ¾ turn did a nice crimp. This is also noted in my log book for future loads.
This is my first exposure to the 30/30 and first overall impression this is a good rifle for close range bush shooting and handling. Now we just have to work on his shooting technique for some improvement which he himself recognized and has asked for help. Looks like more future range visits are in order next year as big game hunting season is quickly approaching here. I too could use some range time to hone rusty skills.