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Post by smokelessindian84 on Apr 23, 2014 12:58:05 GMT -5
At the MSRP price It doesn't look like it will be a big seller especially being a smoker that kicks like a mule!
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Post by chaded on Apr 23, 2014 20:47:07 GMT -5
Well I am surprised to see Remington get back into the muzzleloader game again. This one looks nice but again it limits the user to BP. If anyone in there sales dept. would do a little homework they would see States like Indiana and know Ohio are voting on straight wall center fire rifle cartridges of medium power. Indiana has had several changes to there rules. A lot of guy's have gone to the 358 Hoosier and other wildcat's. Know Indiana is thinking about making any center fire legal. Ohio has a long list of cartridges that they don't consider as being high power. You could build a 45/70 or a 450 Marlin and push 300gr Parker match hunters well past 500 yrd and with these rifles you could install a very good muzzle brake. Time will tell but if these to big buck states are changing there rules you can bet Ill. Iowa won't be out down. Its all about getting hunters dollars. The straight wall rifles was passed in Ohio but we have already been allowed to use smokeless muzzleloaders for some time. .38 caliber or larger.
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Post by cowhunter on Apr 23, 2014 21:06:39 GMT -5
Explain the straight wall thing. Is it like more or different seasons because of an inferior old design?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 21:11:37 GMT -5
I believe straight wall was only designated as a performance cutoff for cartridges. We have always had the straight wall cartridge handgun rule, unlike Indiana where you can use your 15" .243 Encore pistol to hunt deer. I also don't think they opened ohio to straight walled cartridges as much as specific calibers which happen to be all straight walled. I really wanted the 10mm to hit the list but they passed me up for the 38 special! Arseholes!
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 23, 2014 22:00:17 GMT -5
At one time any cartridge was legal in Ohio as long as it was .357 or larger in a pistol. Then the Contender came out and J.D. Jones over in eastern Ohio started building those wildcat Contenders and the DNR cut it back to straight wall cartridges only.
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Post by sagittarius on Apr 24, 2014 10:31:45 GMT -5
At the MSRP price It doesn't look like it will be a big seller especially being a smoker that kicks like a mule! If I had never heard of this board and found out about the benefits of smokeless muzzleloaders, I believe, I would be very interested in purchasing the new Remington. Now days, a muzzleloader or centerfire rifle that costs upwards of a thousand dollars isn't that big of a deal. My old Gonic with its 565 gr bullets kicked like a mule so I've already been there.
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Post by smokelessindian84 on Apr 24, 2014 10:47:03 GMT -5
At the MSRP price It doesn't look like it will be a big seller especially being a smoker that kicks like a mule! If I had never heard of this board and found out about the benefits of smokeless muzzleloaders, I believe, I would be very interested in purchasing the new Remington. Now days, a muzzleloader or centerfire rifle that costs upwards of a thousand dollars isn't that big of a deal. My old Gonic with its 565 gr bullets kicked like a mule so I've already been there. If I spend around $1000 on a centerfire or ML you can bet your bottom dollar it will be smokeless. Because I will refuse to pour fertilizer down the barrel of it. That's why you found this board and we are all here right?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2014 15:37:31 GMT -5
The question I have is if I put a ventliner or bushing plug in it is it going to be smokeless capable ?...this is a smokeless board ,right..? If not ,check it of as another smoker....... The rules of the Board do not allow open discussion of using smokeless powder in rifles the manufacturer tell you specifically not to do! No one on this board is privy to how their barrels are made and if the manufacturer says no then we must say no too. Obviously if someone chooses to ignore the warnings and use smokeless that is their business, but you still may not discuss any results openly on Doug's. edge. Sorry Edge....what was I thinkin...
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Post by madcityhoosier on Apr 25, 2014 23:51:14 GMT -5
There was quite the interest in these new ML's at the Remington booth at the NRA Nat'l Convention today. The Remington rep who was touting its greatness seemed pretty excited about it too. He claimed the flame path through the breech plug was around 0.022 at the powder end, which I thought was interesting that it was smaller than the Savage designed vent liner of 0.30. Someone else nearby asked about durability/life span of the plug, and the factory rep said 'over a thousand' shots, and they do not recommend pulling the plug as routine maintenance.
The most interesting thing I noticed, is that this new "Remington 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader" has a single locking lug on the bolt. I'd love to have one for a starting point of a custom build, but I suspect that we would have to create a modified plug with a bushing, and I don't see many of us shelling out the cash for one of these just yet.
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Post by elkstalkr on Apr 28, 2014 21:04:46 GMT -5
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Post by encore50a on Apr 29, 2014 7:13:12 GMT -5
Remington's big brother, who's ignition system it was copied from. Remember, the Remington is designed for hunting......
- 15mph sustained wind
- 22mph gusts
- Direction: approximately 30° from target to bench
RANGE: 400 yards
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 29, 2014 9:11:42 GMT -5
In the NRA article that Elkstalkr referenced the one line that gets me,
The Ultimate Muzzleloader seems to be Remington’s attempt to capture some of the smokeless powder hunting crowd, who are accustomed to the centerfire aesthetics of an R700.
Are they talking centerfire guys or the SML guys that have a 10ML and has/or wanting a custom 700ML? Maybe a glimpse into the marketing strategy...
I wonder if the single locking lug is a way Remington is trying to get this classified as a ML to avoid the form 4473. If it was a solid floor 700 action that would make it a 40X action and target guys might buy them up if it used the twin lugs. Maybe not new as you can get a aftermarket action for $1200 but they would be scarfing up used ones.
One guy told me the most accurate MLs Ken Johnston made were based on 40X actions and carried a $5k price tag.
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Post by encore50a on Apr 29, 2014 11:32:19 GMT -5
My XPress is the solid floor X40 action with the twin lugs.
I spent a couple more hours with Ken yesterday and he showed me his target rifles. NICE!
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Post by 10ga on Apr 29, 2014 22:46:40 GMT -5
After a couple of days of surveying the typical "shock and awe" of a new big green release I'm not really impressed and will not be in the market for one any time soon. Besides the drawbacks obvious to all the SML shooters I see $1300+ after tax etc... as a big roadblack for a smoker. Remember that SMLs can always shoot smokey but not vice-versa. And I have heard it's 9&1/2 lb before base, rings and glass, is that with the plastic or lam stock? And with 200 gr powder and a 250 bullet that's 450 gr out the muzzle, ouch. And how about when people want to go to 300 and 325 or 350 bullets. I'm not impressed but will keep an open mind. What I'm hoping for is that now some of the old used 700ML will show up at reasonable prices for donors to be built into really good SML or even really good smokers. I'm going to renew some of my contacts in my hunt for 700ML donors and used MLIIs they may be showing up as the new Ultimate comes out and people try to mitigate that steep price. And I wouldn't be surprised if Savage made improvements to the MLII and had a "new" ML item soon too. Interesting times for sure. 10
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2014 3:46:59 GMT -5
some day I will likely own one but you can bet I will get it used and it will be converted to an SML wearing a Krieger, Brux or similar..
as far as weight is concerned the 9.5 lb range is about right considering a laminated stock and on board ramrod. any lighter and it would likely be non user friendly due to recoil. after building a few of these rigs a finished gun in the 11 lb range is very common and unbraked anything lighter gets rather intense when you pull the trigger IF its run to its potential with heavy bullets..
That's a pretty darn good group @ 400 in those wind conditions by the way, not sure many of us could turn one in like that..
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 30, 2014 4:29:17 GMT -5
Remember, the Remington is designed for hunting......] What does that mean?
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Post by encore50a on Apr 30, 2014 6:28:45 GMT -5
................... That's a pretty darn good group @ 400 in those wind conditions by the way, not sure many of us could turn one in like that.. Thank you.
I was shooting 100grs by WEIGHT of BH209 and the 300gr bullets.
What I didn't include, was that when I returned home and cleaned the rifle, the windage screws were loose on the Leupold STD mount. I could actually move the scope by hand. I shot the 400yd target last, after setting the turret at 200yds. I changed the bases and rings to the Warne bases and the Leupold QR rings. If this weather ever breaks and it dries up I'm heading back to the range.
7mmfreak..........As for a hunting rifle, that's what its designed as and Remington won't be selling it with a match barrel. It won't meet the Ultimate Firearms standards or quality, but it should end up being a great long range shooter, capable of igniting BH consistently with that ignition system. I'm pretty certain that once the rifle gets into the hands of good shooters, we'll see some great long range targets. I believe that owners of this new Remington will be looking to add muzzle brakes to their rifles to tame the recoil using a maximum charge. I know I'm happy with my brake reducing the recoil by 30%.
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 30, 2014 16:44:26 GMT -5
Remington finally put out their 2013 report. There was one line in there referencing the Ultimate deal.
In 2012, we acquired intellectual property related to muzzle loading adapters for approximately $0.8 million.
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Post by jims on Apr 30, 2014 19:01:21 GMT -5
If Rem sells 80,000 of the MLs that would be $10 per rifle. I doubt that many would sell at the price. If they sold 8,000 that would be $100 per rifle at their cost. Seems relatively expensive to me but I certainly am not in the know and have no idea over how many actual gun sales it will be spread over. I actually like the platform, just too bad for us it is not listed as a smokeless but I understand their thoughts although I do not have to agree. Also a .45 caliber might be nice but perhaps that may come later.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2014 19:57:04 GMT -5
ummm, we make smokeless in short order. just need to find a cheap used one. in .45 no less...HA
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Post by leftydeadeye on Oct 16, 2014 20:51:10 GMT -5
Hello fellas, I am kind new to the smokeless ML condition, although I have two they are based upon the savage breech plug and the standard savage vent liner for the 10ml. One of them is a 700ml with a PacNor .45 1:22.. one is a 10ml. I hear alot of talk about bushings versus vent liners. I understand the conditions of chamber pressures, and the factors of orffices and their sizes and how they relate to pressure at the primer or flash hole.. Can someone give me a quick 101 on what a bushing is in relationship to the vent liner.
Regards,
Kent
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Post by leftydeadeye on Oct 16, 2014 21:03:11 GMT -5
I have another question,, does any of you know who may produce rifles stocks that are designed for a lefty get are built for right handed bolt guns? I found a tactical style at Boydes that is ambidextrious but nothing like a thumbhole or a fancy type. I have been traning myself over the years to shoot right handed, but left handed is my natural way..I Grew up shooting right handed guns, being a lefty. I have shot deer with both shoulder holds, but it would sure be nice to have a cheek peice that was on the proper side for a lefty.
Thanks,.
Kent
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Post by jims on Oct 16, 2014 21:38:29 GMT -5
There are many better than I am to give such information but generally the vent liner is a steel machine screw with a hole in the same about .031. It screws into the end of the breech plug opposite the primer. It is a disposable item, after a number of shots the hole will enlarge and should be replaced. That can vary from as little as 10 to perhaps 50 or more. They are relatively cheap at perhaps several dollars and for most would last a season of shooting. The bushing is a hardened tungsten or carbide type material that resists wear. It might last in excess of 500 shots but might cost $50 or so. Some do not mind changing out the steel vent liners, others would rather have the more expensive "lifetime" item. That is it in a nutshell so to speak. Others can give much more details but one item is a less expensive shorter lived item and the other more expensive but a much longer lasting item although both have the same basic function. The bushing is not a screw in direct replacement. You or someone would need to do some machine work to have the bushing installed.
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Post by jims on Oct 16, 2014 21:59:00 GMT -5
You might checks Richard's Microfit stocks. They carry various stocks but I am unsure if they have exactly what you need. Some will duplicate a stock if you already have one that meets your needs but you want another, the cost of course is more than an off the shelf blank.
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Post by Jon on Oct 17, 2014 13:12:28 GMT -5
Jims as I remember correctly I feel You are a good one to talk to about stocks. Especially wood stocks you have some very pretty ones. Is it ok to call a stock pretty?
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Post by dannoboone on Oct 17, 2014 14:11:05 GMT -5
I have another question,, does any of you know who may produce rifles stocks that are designed for a lefty get are built for right handed bolt guns? I found a tactical style at Boydes that is ambidextrious but nothing like a thumbhole or a fancy type. I have been traning myself over the years to shoot right handed, but left handed is my natural way..I Grew up shooting right handed guns, being a lefty. I have shot deer with both shoulder holds, but it would sure be nice to have a cheek peice that was on the proper side for a lefty. Thanks,. Kent Too bad we're such a minority. It would be great if the population were split 50/50!! If you do a search on Boyd's for Remington 700 left hand right hand bolt, they give you many options, just make sure to separate the short actions out of the long actions. Perhaps you can find one for a bull or varmint barrel (I couldn't at the time I got mine, but that may have changed). I ended up with this one: www.boydsgunstocks.com/product.htm?pid=8399&cat=1219Just know that after opening it up, the channel is only about 1/16" at the top towards the back. It was a lot of sanding, but not nearly the work as a Richard's Macrofit I once got that required a lot more as well as reshaping to get all the gouges out.
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Post by leftydeadeye on Oct 17, 2014 15:17:59 GMT -5
Thanks, I will check it out. Also it only sounds like the difference between using vent liners and using a bushing is life span. I was kinda wondering if the bushing set up also reduce the distance from the primer outlet to the flash hole. I could see some advantage in that if is was the condition
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Post by jims on Oct 17, 2014 17:31:51 GMT -5
Jon: My daughter's stock is pretty, mine are just handsome. Leftydeadeye: I hope it all works out for you. You will enjoy the smokeless MLs.
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