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Post by 161 on May 5, 2009 21:13:10 GMT -5
The only point I am trying to make is there are some jobs that require a certain amount of physical strength and ability. 10 years ago I ran 5 miles a day 10 or 12 on the week ends. I had a 340 lb. bench press. Now I have a bad knee an torn rotator in my shoulder. If a school teacher gets tired they can sit down a teach from a chair. The folks on the road crew can take a minute if the need. If a cop is in the middle of a bar fight they must act or someone in the public, themselves or another officer could get hurt. What a lot of people don't understand is cops lose the right to be out of shape when they take the oath. And I know there are a lot of cops who forgot that speech at the academy also. Something ozark touched on is if I retired at 45 I would get X number of dollars till I die. If I live another 40 years that pension won't grow. The check will be the same month after month. In 40 years it won't amount to much. I'll need to start another retirement somewhere else. The janitors pension will continue to grow until 65. Now by all means if I'm looking at this in the wrong way explain it to me. I don't claim to know everything
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Post by edge on May 5, 2009 22:51:31 GMT -5
Now it is getting silly ;D
If you leave your money till you are 65 you have twice what the janitor has.....
You are 100% correct if you guarantee that the average retired cop dies at 66 and zero janitors dies before 80.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
I don't see why you think that a janitor is worth less as a person than a cop. The cop and the janitor should be able to get the same benefits as long as they pay for them and they OWN them personally.
edge.
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Post by edge on May 6, 2009 7:26:40 GMT -5
I didn't think I was "Better" than anyone. Sorry to give that impression. Sorry, not better, but deserve better benefits! When I was a kid and there was one piece of cake left that two kids wanted, my mother let one of us cut the cake and the other child was offered the choice of pieces. IMO, your IPERS plan lets the person cut his own piece and leave the dregs for the other guys. Oh, if I take your rationale of out of shape cops, then if a cop can't do his job he needs to go..... You also would not EVER hire a 5' 2" 115 pound woman either. I will try to do a search on the net for Actuarial tables regarding the lifespan of cops and the general public. I seriously doubt they do not track the general population. That profession certainly is not the most dangerous by a long shot. edge.
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Post by 161 on May 6, 2009 7:35:45 GMT -5
www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/Shift-Survival.htmYou are right a lot of health problem in cops are self induced. I think truck driving for one is more dangerous than law enforcement. The above link explains what I was trying to say. And your right I have taken this thread off the subject.
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Post by petev on May 6, 2009 7:55:00 GMT -5
161- Anyone retiring at 45 and receiving a pension doesn't have much to complain about in my opinion. Also, the pay for police, fire, teachers and military have come a long way.
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Post by edge on May 6, 2009 8:05:10 GMT -5
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Post by 161 on May 6, 2009 10:26:45 GMT -5
petev Believe me I am not complaining about the pay or the benefits. I only tried to explain why cops should get on with life after twenty years. edge You said yourself if they can't preform their duties they need to go. There is nobody on earth that dislikes a R.O.D. "Retired On Duty" more than me. I have a good job an I know it. But it would appear that I have allowed myself to be pulled into a political debate and that was never my intent. My brother was a school custodian. He made the decision to take that employment because he liked to work on things. I don't have these skills. It was a line of work he enjoyed. He knew what the benefits were at his time of hire. His benefits weren't bad. One of my other brothers went to work at Proctor & Gamble he started in production and moved to the machine shop. He's a fairly good machinist. I am not. His benefits are very good also. When I wanted to become a cop I was 26 5'7 140 lbs. and couldn't spell for crap. I worked to over come the spelling as best I could so I would pass the entrance exam. I ran and worked out to pass the physical. And maintained that lifestyle to this day so I can preform my duties into my 60s. I hope. I did these things because I had set a goal for a career I wanted. With good benefits. However at that time in life who really thinks about retirement Isn't that how it's supposed to work in America? You set goals in life then you reap the benefits? This is the main problem I have with the Obama administration. Second only to his stance on the Second Amendment. Everybody should be treated the same, spread the wealth. I personally know of no officers that retire at 45. Although I'm sure some have. I know a few that go out at 55, if life has been good to them and can afford it. I don't like writing these thing because without seeing a persons facial expression or hearing tone of voice something could be perceived as being aggressive or offensive. I hope no one take it that way. edge I couldn't get that site to open said the file was damaged. I'll try again later. P.S. I hope your right and I'm wrong about my living a long and happy life. When I'm 103 lets get together.
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Post by edge on May 6, 2009 10:47:36 GMT -5
I will mark it on my calendar edge.
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Post by chuck41 on May 6, 2009 10:51:47 GMT -5
I retired at the ripe old age of 41 after 20 years of service in the AF on half of part of my military pay. The fact is the military, police, fire fighters, and the like don't want 60 year olds, at least not in any considerable quantity so the enlistees are told right up front that after 20 to 30 years they are going to have to change occupations. If they don't retire them they will kick them out cause people past middle age simply can't do the active stuff they hire those folk for. I don't begrudge anyone in those fields of endeavor for their early retirements. Most others simply don't put their life on the line like the military, firefighters, and police do and they deserve anything they get.
Without that retirement as a carrot to encourage young folks to stay longer we would not be able to keep good people in the military, police, or fire protection agencies for the 20 to 25 years that they are needed. I and most every other military retiree I know went to work at another job after our military service and earned further retirement benefits for which I am very thankful. Anyone in reasonably good health could opt to join the military, cops, or fire protection agencys if they so choose. That is what makes it "fair". The jobs are not restricted to those "in the know", "with good connections", of one skin color, or related to the boss. It is a legal contract entered on by the enlistee and the government or other agency and the "retirement" promise is a part of that contract. The validity of such contracts are protected specifically in the constitution.
When you get teachers, janitors, and wal-mart greeters that are needed as young employees, but not after their mid 40s they will start being offered similar early retirement benefits. You can't expect young people to commit to 20 to 30 years without offering them something for that commitment. Even our dumbed down high school graduates of today are smart enough to figure that out. Someone who has to start a totally new career at the age of 45 to 50 is at a very big disadvantage. They deserve the compensation.
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Post by petev on May 6, 2009 11:23:18 GMT -5
161 and Chuck. You have given good, reasonable answers. The only part I don't agree with is "Most others simply don't put their life on the line like the military, firefighters, and police do and they deserve anything they get." Some military personnel just push a pencil all day. Some private sector jobs are as hazardous as any. The first two most hazardous jobs supposedly are crab fishing and logging. On the other hand, I didn't realize that the government retirements were on half pay. So, it's a sort of retirement, where some continuation of work is required. I guess when we get up in the morning, there's no telling what we will learn today! Pete
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Post by chuck41 on May 6, 2009 11:44:46 GMT -5
161 and Chuck. You have given good, reasonable answers. The only part I don't agree with is "Most others simply don't put their life on the line like the military, firefighters, and police do and they deserve anything they get." Some military personnel just push a pencil all day. Some private sector jobs are as hazardous as any. The first two most hazardous jobs supposedly are crab fishing and logging. On the other hand, I didn't realize that the government retirements were on half pay. So, it's a sort of retirement, where some continuation of work is required. I guess when we get up in the morning, there's no telling what we will learn today! Pete I spent some time pushing a pencil. I also spent some time where I earned a DFC and 6 air medals. Truckers on the interstate also take risks every day. Also bar bouncers and linemen for the electric companies. Reread the part about "contracts" as that is the key here. Crab fishermen, and loggers had the same chance to join the military, police, or fire protection agencies as I, 161 and Ozark did. Last time I looked I didn't see a line in front of the recruiting office in my home town. How about where you are? Anyone who at the age of 20 isn't willing to make the commitment should not gripe at the age of 55 about those who did.
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Post by edge on May 6, 2009 12:07:11 GMT -5
My main problem comes not from what is offered, only that the Janitor no matter how much he begs is allowed to put HIS OWN MONEY away for himself! He works for the same Government! Wouldn't the road crew work better with an average age of 30 vs 45?
As a matter of fact, 40 hour work weeks are designed to employ more people. That is one reason that some European countries mandate 6 weeks of vacation.
The sooner you move folks out of their regular job the sooner the generation that follows can start their big earning years.
edge.
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Post by 161 on May 6, 2009 13:06:17 GMT -5
I will mark it on my calendar edge. October 2067
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Post by petev on May 6, 2009 20:42:43 GMT -5
Chuck your point has some merit, but unfortunately not with me. I finally got serious about joining the Army in 1985, passed the written test, was interested in Airborne and Combat Engineers, but failed the physical due to flat feet and one other small problem. After that effort failed, I then continued my tree climbing career for 13 more years. Seems ironic. Being human, I guess since I am not one of the ones getting an early retirement, and some of my money goes to those who are, I am not real happy about it. This is much less of an issue when the retirees are military or police, and more when it is a mailman, high school teacher, or D.O.T. worker. What I have said is all just talk, since it won't change anything for me, and I have more material possessions than I had ever expected. The other point that I will make is that you seem to think someone can predict what to expect 30-40 years later, when they are 18-20 y.o. What I mean, is that who would have guessed 30 years ago that health insurance would now be unobtainable for most individuals on their own. When I was in my early twenties, making just over minimum wage I would buy a Blue Cross/ Blue Shield policy for $250 a year. Now, I do not have coverage, and having coverage pretty much comes with certain jobs. But who knew that 30 years ago? There were no IRA's back then either. So things change, and second guessing through hindsight can be done, although it doesn't change anything. I hope I have clarified something, or maybe I just felt like rambling. Pete
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Post by 161 on May 7, 2009 12:28:45 GMT -5
petev
Along the lines of your experience with the military. In the early 80s I talked to an Army recruiter. When he found out I two steel plates an 6 screws in my right arm. The conversation was over. His advice to me was "Boy if I were you I'd drink a lot a beer an smoke a lot a cigarettes because the Army don't want ya".
I personally thought that was poor advice to give a young teen aged male with nothing else to do. Anyway in 2005 I told that story to a young Army recruiter. He looked me in the eye an said I can get you in.
The reason. in the 80s we were in a recession nobody had a job an the military could pick and choose. In 2005 during a war a 41 year old guys starts to look pretty good.
I guess the reason for my response is I can't believe in the US military there wasn't something you and I couldn't have done to serve our county. It's always been something I my life I've regretted.
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Post by petev on May 7, 2009 12:57:18 GMT -5
161 I could not have expressed my own feelings better than what you said.
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Post by Buckrub on May 7, 2009 13:30:21 GMT -5
Hey 161---- Two more steel plates and nine more screws, and you coulda been a TANK!!!!
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Post by ozark on May 7, 2009 15:09:56 GMT -5
I wore GI socks, boots, underwear and ourerwear. I fired a lot of ammunition, always had a rifle or pistol. I eat C and K rations, flew in planes, rode in ships, lived in a barracks and in family housing. I was paid each month, and lived through the Korean most of the Viet Nam (Retired before it was ended) conflicts. Nothing I used or have mentioned was produced by the military. You do not have to wear a uniform to do something great for our country. I just don't accept that being in the military makes one a hero or more deserving of credit than those who supported the cause in the work world. I don't want to hear about the Military saving our freedome or of them deserving all the credit. It was Team America that has kept us free and on into the future it will be Team America that wins. I think I know which side of the bread has the butter on it. The soldier that used cold hands to open a carton of ammunition and finds a note that says: Packed by Carol Johnson immediately gets a warm feeling that is worth perhaps as much as the ammunition. Ozark
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Post by petev on May 7, 2009 16:57:11 GMT -5
Ozark, good post as usual. We're all in it together. Now if we can only get the rest of the country to agree! Pete
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Post by 161 on May 7, 2009 19:42:08 GMT -5
Hey 161---- Two more steel plates and nine more screws, and you coulda been a TANK!!!! Well see there ya go!! ;D
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Post by Jon on May 24, 2009 7:15:02 GMT -5
Ozark. I can relate to what you say. I'm a Vietnam vet that I'm sure between hearing dammage and damage from morters etc. I was treated so badly when I came home I didn't want anything to do with it. Now 30 + yrs later I've lost sight in one eye am diabetic from agent orange and other ailments steming from other damages. Have become disabled ssi and so far it has been going on 2 yrs. trying to get compensation I'm able to get to the range once a mo. or less I need to relay on help. So I can understand what you say. I know that it was not conciderad a war. Tell that to the 56000+ that died over there so the powers to be could make big money. This country has been on a down hill slid since the constitun look what happened to the signers. Look what the government so called workers gets away with now. It costs me atleast 1500 a mo. between medications and the insurance just to stay alive let alone have a real life. Who in there right mind would want to go to a VA hospital for anything serouse. The basic feeling is you go in you never come out. I understand it some what better for the retired disabled? I can fully appreciate what you are saying. You should have been a gov. worker garanteed ful medical and a early retirement almost if not equal to the overpayment you got working for the gov. Sorry to vent but if people do the reserch they will know it is true if not toned down. No one wants to hear it any way. Sorry for the spelling and other mistakes I'm getting used to a new key board and have stumble finger. Jon
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Post by chuck41 on May 24, 2009 9:49:32 GMT -5
Life ain't fair. One is born male, another female. One is 6'3 another is 4'6. One is healthy, another is not. One is pretty, another is as homely as a mud fence.
You have to play the hand you are dealt whatever that happens to be and make the most of it. Griping about the other guy doesn't get you anywhere. As a good friend once said to me, "You pays your money and takes your choice, but sometimes you just pays your money."
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