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Post by quillen52 on Oct 24, 2013 14:58:06 GMT -5
Today was a great day to go to the range with a rifle using a saboted load - supposedly. It was slightly overcast-33 degrees, no wind. The problem was when trying to load the .458 Barnes original over 65 gr of RL7 I could not force the bullet down the bore, I had to hammer it down. Accuracy was not good. I switched to a black crush rib sabot and the .458 300 gr Barnes original and had to hammer it down too. Anyone have any suggested bullets and sabot combinations that might load and shoot well in my tight bore savage? It is too hard to load to hunt with it now plus it does not shoot particularly well. I have both 275 and 300 gr match hunters and short black mmp sabots. Any load suggestions?
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Post by rangeball on Oct 24, 2013 15:22:02 GMT -5
This is going to come out of left field but if you are one of the lucky ones with a tight bore savage, I highly recommend you contact Terry at Thor Bullets and ask him to send you a sizing pack of his full bore bullets. They are made by barnes, are .499 on the bearing surface with different skirt sizes from .500-.503. The closer to .500 that fits your bore, the better they shoot. They come in 250 and 300gr versions both tipped and non-tipped. They absolutely hammer deer. My SMI H&R douglas shoots the .500 250gr sub-moa.
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Post by quillen52 on Oct 24, 2013 15:32:36 GMT -5
I have been working with this thing since I bought it last winter. In 70 degree plus temps it was taking 70 lbs to load the .458 barnes/orange sabots and as I said in my first post today I had to hammer them today in the colder weather. I do not feel so lucky but maybe I am if it shoots the thors as you say. What kind of ballistic coefficient do they have? I was just about convinced to use the barrel as a tomato stake as someone had previously suggested and put a pac or mac on it. My 45 Macsavage shoots great and is a ton of fun but I am a little frustrated with the savage.
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Post by quillen52 on Oct 24, 2013 15:43:44 GMT -5
I just saw on the net that Thor bullets were sold out for the remainder of 2013. Looks like they have about the same ballistic coefficient as a tipped barnes bullet.
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Post by rangeball on Oct 24, 2013 15:47:19 GMT -5
I'd say the tipped 250s are .220 based on the drops I saw, I've never shot the 300s but would estimate them around .260.
If I were you I'd pull the plug then push the match hunters through with the sabots you have available looking for one with a medium fit then use whatever gr charge of RL7 is normal for the bullet weight you settle on and adjust from there. If you don't find a good fit get a sample pack from Luke. One of them will likely work.
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Post by mrbuck on Oct 24, 2013 16:20:21 GMT -5
I have the same issue with the Barnes Originals and the black crush ribbed sabots in my blue MLII . Tried the MMP Orange sabot but only average accuracy .
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Post by rangeball on Oct 24, 2013 16:25:56 GMT -5
I just saw on the net that Thor bullets were sold out for the remainder of 2013. Looks like they have about the same ballistic coefficient as a tipped barnes bullet. Sorry had no idea. I bought several last fall as my nephew is using my H&R with them. Luckily I have enough left for this season as well.
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Post by 10ga on Oct 24, 2013 19:02:14 GMT -5
Seems you need a smaller diameter bullet sabot combo. Check the attached link and see what may be better for you. Seems the .458 bullets may not fit in your bore so well and fit is everything. see link for diameter combos off of Modern Muzzleloader www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9798Next best is get a die and size your .458 bullets down but that is adding $ and work. 10 ga
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Post by quillen52 on Oct 24, 2013 19:25:10 GMT -5
I had planned to size down slightly and have had a swinglok die on order for about 8 weeks with no luck. Tom says 3 to 4 weeks more. I had hoped to use the rifle in Illinois but I have all but given up on that since I will be leaving in a couple of weeks. In addition, while cleaning the rifle this afternoon I noticed one of the scope ring base attachment screws was broken. Guess I will be ordering rings from Luke. May be why my accuracy was poor. I tried both HCR and orange sabots and both were almost impossible to load. I tried 300 gr match hunters with MMP short black sabots and in my shop at 70 degrees it took 70 to 80 lbs to load them. I tried the yellow sabots that come with the barnes 295 boatail tez and they would not even start into the barrel. Very frustrating. Barrel may be a tomato stake next spring!
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Post by rangeball on Oct 24, 2013 20:03:12 GMT -5
What kind of loading pressure do you get when you try the match hunters with the harvester black CR or the MMP orange? That may be the ticket. Have you ever blown sabots? Have you cleaned/scrubbed the bore real well to make sure you don't have a fouling problem? It's a matter of matching thousands. Your barrel is apparently out of the norm on the tight side, which I still view as a good thing. Don't worry about what is normally used with a certain class bullet, try the MHs with the HBCR and MMP orange. You need to shave a few thousands, and this might do it for you. Then pick the appropriate powder load for the bullet weight class. After you fix your mount of course
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Post by Dave W on Oct 24, 2013 20:51:47 GMT -5
Your barrel is like mine, the .458 325 FTX is too tight in a BCR, groups so-so. I would try a MMP HPH 24 or the short or long black Harvester with a Match Hunter, if loose, then knurl. I even tried a MMP 3 petal EZ with the 325 FTX and still way too tight for cold weather loading in my gun.
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Post by quillen52 on Oct 24, 2013 21:27:57 GMT -5
What kind of loading pressure do you get when you try the match hunters with the harvester black CR or the MMP orange? That may be the ticket. Have you ever blown sabots? Have you cleaned/scrubbed the bore real well to make sure you don't have a fouling problem? It's a matter of matching thousands. Your barrel is apparently out of the norm on the tight side, which I still view as a good thing. Don't worry about what is normally used with a certain class bullet, try the MHs with the HBCR and MMP orange. You need to shave a few thousands, and this might do it for you. Then pick the appropriate powder load for the bullet weight class. After you fix your mount of course I tried the match hunters with both the HBCR and the mmp orange. Loading pressure was about 10 lbs and it did not shoot well. I tried them with the short black and at 70 degrees in my shop it took 70 to 80 lbs to load. I tried the the MMP HPH12 and it also took about 70 to 80 lbs to load at 70 degrees. If I get out there at 30 degrees I'll be hammering again. I did clean the barrel but did not give it a super serious scrubbing. I will try that again. I am really thinking I may need to resize slightly. I tried knurling the match hunters but could still get only about 20 lbs of loading pressure with the mmp orange or the HBCR.
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Post by quillen52 on Oct 24, 2013 21:30:55 GMT -5
Your barrel is like mine, the .458 325 FTX is too tight in a BCR, groups so-so. I would try a MMP HPH 24 or the short or long black Harvester with a Match Hunter, if loose, then knurl. I even tried a MMP 3 petal EZ with the 325 FTX and still way too tight for cold weather loading in my gun. What do you typically shoot for a hunting load?
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Post by Dave W on Oct 24, 2013 21:46:28 GMT -5
Your barrel is like mine, the .458 325 FTX is too tight in a BCR, groups so-so. I would try a MMP HPH 24 or the short or long black Harvester with a Match Hunter, if loose, then knurl. I even tried a MMP 3 petal EZ with the 325 FTX and still way too tight for cold weather loading in my gun. What do you typically shoot for a hunting load? 250 FTX-HPH 24 with N110/H322. 23/47 or the old trusty 14/61. Sub MOA to 250yds. I was close to similar results with the 250 TEZ but I could never get 100% sabot integrity with a 13/62 ratio. Some days one would blow, some days none would. I think if I tried the TEZ again I would use 4759 as the booster at similar ratios. The sabots would not hold up at all with the TEZ and the 70gr load. Also, I knurled the TEZ very aggressively.
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lee
Forkhorn
Posts: 57
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Post by lee on Jun 8, 2015 14:11:12 GMT -5
Have had good accuracy with 250 gr xtps and 41 grs. of AA5744 useing Black Crushed rib sabots in my tight bore Gen 2 mml2 50 cal.
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Post by quillen52 on Jun 8, 2015 18:04:29 GMT -5
My best accuracy has come to be with the 300 gr match hunter/short black mmp sabot, 63 gr RL-7. It is still a bear dog to load requiring both hands and a lot of pressure(about 60 to 70 lbs. Have tried serious cleaning, JB etc.. The gun largely stays in the safe now since it is no fun to shoot and too much of a pain in the neck to try to hunt with. It is just too hard to load!
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Post by jims on Jun 8, 2015 18:22:36 GMT -5
Could you get an adjustable die and slightly size the bullets?
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Post by dannoboone on Jun 8, 2015 18:34:11 GMT -5
The best accuracy would come after contacting Luke and putting a .458 barrel on it. Rest assured, it would no longer be a safe queen.
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Post by quillen52 on Jun 8, 2015 21:13:57 GMT -5
Tried the adjustable die and got mixed results with a lot of work. I think Dannoboone's idea is best, I've about run my string with sabots.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jun 17, 2015 16:28:57 GMT -5
Lee sells a standard .454 sizing die. Combined with a Harvester Black Crushrib that comes out to roughly .505-.506 loaded OD. So its slightly smaller than a MMP Orange with a .458.
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Post by jims on Jun 17, 2015 17:22:49 GMT -5
I do not know what their standard sizing dies sell for but their custom sizes are $40 including shipping. The wait is longer with a custom size however.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jun 17, 2015 18:59:39 GMT -5
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Post by quillen52 on Jun 17, 2015 22:04:29 GMT -5
I have the 454 Lee die. May give this a try!
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screwgunner
Button Buck
thinking about going 45cal sabotless
Posts: 6
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Post by screwgunner on Aug 10, 2015 16:33:19 GMT -5
I have had good luck with harvesters 300 gold tip and there smokeless red sabbots
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