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Post by dougedwards on Apr 16, 2009 19:42:02 GMT -5
RB.....am I correct to assume that you feel that the all copper bullets are junk to shoot at deer because you don't think that they will reliably expand? I am not clear on how a bullet can be great for elk but too much for whitetails if the result of hunting with that bullet is a quickly recovered deer. Might it have something to do with excessive damage to the tissue which could render it unedible? I don't get it. Can you help me?
Doug
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Apr 16, 2009 20:15:29 GMT -5
I think this is all pretty funny. We must use a solid to anchor a dangerous animal quickly. However, using a solid bullet on a deer may have it run a mile?
OK...the solid used on dangerous game is meant to break structure and reach vitals. DRT or incapacitated right there. And why doesn't this apply to deer?
NO deer with it's vitals crossed with ANY bullet is going to run a mile. Solid bullets (Barnes) junk on deer? Shame on who said that. Not sure how many deer that person has shot with them...but this person has shot enough to feed a small county.....county not country. All of them together haven't run 1/2 mile! ;D ;D
RB, you are a smart smart man, an icon here...full of absolutely wonderful data and insight. But calling a monolithic copper slug junk on deer is fraught in goat crap! This is one area I have visited, lived in, and thrived in. They work excellent.
BBQ it is.
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Post by rbinar on Apr 16, 2009 22:03:07 GMT -5
RB.....am I correct to assume that you feel that the all copper bullets are junk to shoot at deer because you don't think that they will reliably expand? I am not clear on how a bullet can be great for elk but too much for whitetails if the result of hunting with that bullet is a quickly recovered deer. Might it have something to do with excessive damage to the tissue which could render it unedible? I don't get it. Can you help me? Doug I hope all who are reading this post realize that all is said in good humor. These bullet debates are a custom here and everyone knows that both sides have good points to their argument and the difference in good bullets is slight by anyone's definition. I hope you enjoyed the pause in fire: now I can get on to blasting your behind. I guess you could say the logic in my thinking may come from being around the many who told me that a bullet like the SST is fine if you don't shoot it faster than 2200fps but it's a piece of junk if you raise the speed to 2500fps. A faster bullet with more energy can't kill deer as well, Right? But rather than bash an idea (I like to do that sometimes) I guess it is best to relate one. The idea is an old one and may be going the way of the dinosaur (just like me) but in the past we tried to match the bullet we were shooting to the game we were after. Lighter game required more fragmenting bullets. The thought was that even on off centered hits small animals would succumb quickly to a shock effect. Thus we thought we were being more humane and efficient. As the game increased in size the bullet would be also be tougher. That way animals subject to shock would still receive that but the bullet would provide wound channel damage as well. In really big game shock was considered less an effective way to kill so wound channel effect would gradually become more till dangerous big game would require a solid non-deforming bullet. Even at that it is notable that even dangerous game with some soft matter (like Lion and Leopard) are pursued with bullets that offer at least shock expansion value. The bullets used for elk and moose poke holes. That happens to be the best way to kill something that weighs more than half a ton. And using my dinosaur logic that would mean using a tough bullet. If asked do deer fall subject to shock expansion effect: you'll have to provide your own answer. I feel that for deer to 300lbs the best bullet would fragment up to 75% (or slightly more at really close range). On an elk the Nosler Partition is a wonderful bullet because it only fragments about 25% at closest ranges. I like the Barnes as well but feel 100% weight retention is not necessary but elk are big enough it's not bad. So does making a bullet for elk or elephant make it more deadly on everything else? If you think so I guess they would be your deer bullet as well. |
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Post by rbinar on Apr 16, 2009 22:19:33 GMT -5
I think this is all pretty funny. We must use a solid to anchor a dangerous animal quickly. However, using a solid bullet on a deer may have it run a mile? OK...the solid used on dangerous game is meant to break structure and reach vitals. DRT or incapacitated right there. And why doesn't this apply to deer? NO deer with it's vitals crossed with ANY bullet is going to run a mile. Solid bullets (Barnes) junk on deer? Shame on who said that. Not sure how many deer that person has shot with them...but this person has shot enough to feed a small county.....county not country. All of them together haven't run 1/2 mile! ;D ;D RB, you are a smart smart man, an icon here...full of absolutely wonderful data and insight. But calling a monolithic copper slug junk on deer is fraught in goat crap! This is one area I have visited, lived in, and thrived in. They work excellent. BBQ it is. Let's try this gem first. [glow=red,2,300]OK...the solid used on dangerous game is meant to break structure and reach vitals. DRT or incapacitated right there. And why doesn't this apply to deer? [/glow] It makes perfect sense if you aim at the largest bone and can hit it every time. It also rates as "goat crap" if you miss center. An off center hit will cut a hole and on all but the worse shots might get the job done. However a bullet that provides considerably more shock will do as well in the center hits and provide much more energy to game if it deforms significantly when off center. Again I ask the question: Are deer subject to shock at all? If not shoot the solid. I have another opinion. It is not an opinion I can back up by saying "I never lost a deer". It is not an opinion I can subject the public to with millions of dollars of advertising like the premium bullet makers will. But believe it or not it is an opinion most shooters had until they were told by premium bullet makers they are idiots. I must admit that I don't like the African game comparison. You do realize that almost every really big game shot leads to tracking? Drop dead shots almost never happen on buffalo, rhino or whatever. If you really want a bang flop you don't use that for an example. Are there any ribs on that grill? |
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 16, 2009 22:56:26 GMT -5
I guess maybe I was being serious about a subject that we joke about but for years I have not understood how you could consider the all copper bullets "junk" when used on whitetail. I am wondering if you have ever had the experience of shooting a whitetail deer with one.
Let me relate just one experience of what others might call bullet failure. I can't remember the name of the bullet right now but it was a 245 gr Barnes all copper with a very narrow hollow point. I was shooting it with 68 grain of RL-7 and the bullet entered toward the rear of the lung area and made a very small hole going in and the exit hole was not any larger. This was a 40 yard shot. Now this bullet could not have expanded or opened up like it should have. All it did was put a very large buck on the ground and he stayed there. You see, even solids can have a shock affect.
We can theorize all we want but in the end what matters is real life experiences. I have no real life experience with shooting big game African animals. I would have to theorize about shooting them
Doug
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Post by boarhog on Apr 16, 2009 23:21:38 GMT -5
RBinAR,
I absolutely agree with you that the game hunted should define bullet choice, but most of us will make the final decision based upon our own experiences, style of hunt, length of shot, and probably several other factors unknown. One important consideration has to be how tough, or hard to kill, are the animals you hunt.
A hunter that is likely to have a shot at a 400+ lb Iowa cornfed bruiser very likely would be better prepared if he used Nosler Partition or Barnes, while the fellow that hunts Central Texas Whitetails, that rarely top 100 lbs., would probably be well served by Nosler Ballistic Tips and the like.
Another important consideration is the usual length of shot. If your average shot is beyond 150 yds, IMO you couldn't make a better choice. Impact velocity at 3000+ MV will often make a wonderful bullet perform badly.
My own choice is determined by the fact that we are very likely to have shots at hogs, some well over 300 lbs., and usually at very close range. I have seen .54 cal roundballs hit a big boar just behind the shoulder and be deflected up to exit the top of the back hump behind the head. Apparently, some impact to the spine anchored the boar long enough to reload and fire again. Another time, I hit a large boar on the shoulder with a 370 gr, .50 cal Maxi-Ball, and it was also turned or deflected. We found it bent in a U shape just under the hide of the right side ham. The same side the bullet first impacted. The shot was at 20 yards, but the tracking job seemed like miles through the briars and brambles!
I am famous for turning a sentence into a novel, so forgive me for rambling on. Everyone has to decide what works best for them.
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Post by rbinar on Apr 17, 2009 1:09:47 GMT -5
I guess maybe I was being serious about a subject that we joke about but for years I have not understood how you could consider the all copper bullets "junk" when used on whitetail. I am wondering if you have ever had the experience of shooting a whitetail deer with one. Let me relate just one experience of what others might call bullet failure. I can't remember the name of the bullet right now but it was a 245 gr Barnes all copper with a very narrow hollow point. I was shooting it with 68 grain of RL-7 and the bullet entered toward the rear of the lung area and made a very small hole going in and the exit hole was not any larger. This was a 40 yard shot. Now this bullet could not have expanded or opened up like it should have. All it did was put a very large buck on the ground and he stayed there. You see, even solids can have a shock affect. We can theorize all we want but in the end what matters is real life experiences. I have no real life experience with shooting big game African animals. I would have to theorize about shooting them Doug Ok I'll be serious for a while. I have to admit that any idea one holds about a type of bullet is very subjective. All copper bullets work. I have no doubt about that from my own experience as well as your reports. However many other styles of bullets work as well. If you are trying to choose between two very similar things your reasons are not always reasons to the guy who has the opposite opinion. So when I say Barnes are junk on deer it is more because I like to tweak Randy Barnes than to make a technical point. If we talk about personal experience I'd prefer to take the fifth. I have used Barnes but it would be like that post about how many shots do you take? If I used that experience you'd think I'm a bigger braggart and blow hard than some already think I am. I've shot Barnes, I've killed deer but my opinion is just like my behind. Every one has it and some think it stinks. |
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 17, 2009 5:33:43 GMT -5
Great response RB. Now that you have cleared that up we can all get back to being smart butts again. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Doug
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Apr 17, 2009 5:48:41 GMT -5
Ok RB, you are off the hook on the "junk" bullet comments...for now. Maybe you should send Randy a PM or email and vent your differences/frustration directly. This would seem to make "hitting you bullseye" more efficient  And....do share your experiences with the coppers on deer. Why take the 5th? I'll assume they worked very well and even surprised you. |
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Post by edge on Apr 17, 2009 5:58:32 GMT -5
IMO, solids have virtually no place in the field!
Certainly not for any whitetail deer, IMO!
edge.
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Post by screwbolts on Apr 17, 2009 7:40:18 GMT -5
IMO, solids have virtually no place in the field! Certainly not for any whitetail deer, IMO! edge. I have tried to stay out of this ;D What is your definition of solids?? I have had many bang flops in the last 20 years using solid cast Boolitz. And I find my current 333gr Hard cast Long Flat Nose to be an awesome deer bullet. and you can eat right up to the boolit hole. Ken |
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Post by edge on Apr 17, 2009 8:33:48 GMT -5
IMO, solids have virtually no place in the field! Certainly not for any whitetail deer, IMO! edge. I have tried to stay out of this ;D What is your definition of solids?? SNIP Excellent point  I did misspeak  Flat nosed LBT bullets are superb whitetail medicine!!! I was referring the the African bullets mentioned for Dangerous game, which are full metal jacket round nose bullets designed for penetration only, and must not expand! edge. |
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Post by chuck41 on Apr 17, 2009 10:02:07 GMT -5
Edge, Your table of design speeds is interesting. I have recently decided to go from using the 200gr .40 cal XTP to the 210gr 41. cal XTP. According to your chart the design speed for the .41 is 1600fps vs the 1200 for the .40cal. Also using a Rem .41 cal SP bullet that should be better than the XTP considering that I am pushing these jewels at about 2700fps. Still much higher than what Hornady indicates as design speed, but should be better if I hit a shoulder than the really soft 200gr XTP. Just resized a bunch of them and anxious to get out and try them when I get home from Branson. He's laughing at us all.  |
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gjs4
Forkhorn
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Post by gjs4 on Apr 17, 2009 20:11:30 GMT -5
Thanks for thread edge- i guess i know a bit better how they work now.  from personal experience- the standard SSTs performed poorly for me inside of 100 yards on 3 of maybe 10 deer. I then went to 300gr BOs. They flattened most of the deer where they stood. If they ran- the blod trails were week. Angles may have varied but all hits were between the rib cage and the front shoulder. |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Apr 17, 2009 20:40:18 GMT -5
Someone mentioned African game? Who? I spoke of dangerous game. Never spoke of "solids". Is a Barnes TMZ a solid? Kind of but not in the true sense of the word...or context of a traditional solid used on frontal brain shots on elephant and hippo's.
A solid copper bullet like the TMZ mushrooms like a soft point but does so without losing weight at any speed you push it. It gets a lot bigger but keeps its' momentum going forward in a basic straight line.
As for shock? Shoot a TMZ (I like 2500+ fps...up to 2800 with a 250) at a full 1 gallon jug of water and watch the vapor cloud. Imagine the lungs being subjected to that! Seen it. Done it. I need no-one to tell me the outcome cause I've been there to see it dozens of times. Speed will give the shock. Expansion will give a bigger hole. Momentum will provide penetration to the vitals regardless of angle. A very tough position to be in if you are a whitetail deer.
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Post by artjr338wm on Apr 17, 2009 22:49:15 GMT -5
I am a fan of Barnes 290 TMZs, and 245 Spitfires for these 4 reasons. #1-I have seen pics posted both here and at MM that showed the TMZs opening up a velocities considerably lower than we shoot them at while being shot in balistic geliten. #2-My 10ML-II shoots them more than accurate enough for use in deer hunting. Contrary to popular opinion ones bullet need not shoot MOA to be agood deer bullet. #3-If your 10ML shoots them well, the Barnes TMZ and Spitfire bullets are IMHO THE 10ML-II bullet for the velocities the 10ML-II can shoot at. In all honesty what other bullet can we shoot at 2400 to 2600fps and have little if any worry of the bullet exploding opon impact if the shot is at close range? You simply can not shoot all copper Barnes ML bullets to fast for deer hunting. #4-I bought over 500 each of the TMZs and Spitfires when Cabelas had them on close out, so I'd better get them to shoot because they don't taste well ;D ;Dsprinkled on top of my Total  corn flakes. I guess its like every thing else in hunting as it comes down to personal preferences. There realy is no right or wrong here. |
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Post by bigmoose on Apr 18, 2009 5:39:33 GMT -5
artjr
Try in flat based 290 TMZ, better than the boattail, either one a fine bullet on game.
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Post by edge on Apr 18, 2009 6:24:49 GMT -5
SNIP #3-If your 10ML shoots them well, the Barnes TMZ and Spitfire bullets are IMHO THE 10ML-II bullet for the velocities the 10ML-II can shoot at. In all honesty what other bullet can we shoot at 2400 to 2600fps and have little if any worry of the bullet exploding opon impact if the shot is at close range? You simply can not shoot all copper Barnes ML bullets to fast for deer hunting. SNIP I agree 100% with this, that you can't shoot them too fast! BUT, as with most things there is a trade-off, and with a tough bullet the problem comes at the other end. At what point does it fail to reliably open up? Now I admit that for 99.9% of all shots this will never be a problem, but IMO, this bullet MAY become unreliable somewhere past 300 yards. IMO, a SST/SW would probably be a more reliable bullet past 250 yards, but as I said that is MO ONLY edge. |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Apr 18, 2009 6:52:48 GMT -5
What we need then is a double barreled muzzleloader. One barrel loaded for close range and the other for long range. WAIT!!!......We could eliminate the Barnes this way too!...The close range barrel could just be loaded down to 1600-1800 fps!!!
Solved. You guys can just send me your Barnes now and I'll give you raw copper price....minus the plastic tips of course.
Edge: By unreliable past 300 yds are you talking from an expansion standpoint? Someone who likes to test stuff could fire a reduced load of 25 gr 4759 into water, wet news paper or ballistic gel and figure this out if they needed to know. A 250 started at 2,600 should be honking along at about 1500 fps at 300 and 1240 fps at 400...still above the advertised operating range of the bullet. However, it COULD be tested by loading it down and shooting over a chrony.
At these speeds (1200-1500) I have killed 7-8 whitetails with my 100 gr Thunderhawk and .429 240 gr XTPs from 25-125 tds. All braodside shots that I recall. All full penetration...most stopping under far side hide. Average mushrooms and short death runs. I think a hole thru the boiler room at these speeds work good if the hole is .65 caliber or .45 caliber
The Barnes Expander 1 OZ shotgun slug MAY be an example. It chronies 1330 from my shotgun. It has killed a bunch of deer for me...all pass throughs. I did recover one from the ground after it passed through a doe at 40 yds. Looked completely opened up.
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 18, 2009 6:56:22 GMT -5
Someone mentioned African game? Who? I spoke of dangerous game. Never spoke of "solids". Is a Barnes TMZ a solid? Kind of but not in the true sense of the word...or context of a traditional solid used on frontal brain shots on elephant and hippo's. A solid copper bullet like the TMZ mushrooms like a soft point but does so without losing weight at any speed you push it. It gets a lot bigger but keeps its' momentum going forward in a basic straight line. As for shock? Shoot a TMZ (I like 2500+ fps...up to 2800 with a 250) at a full 1 gallon jug of water and watch the vapor cloud. Imagine the lungs being subjected to that! Seen it. Done it. I need no-one to tell me the outcome cause I've been there to see it dozens of times. Speed will give the shock. Expansion will give a bigger hole. Momentum will provide penetration to the vitals regardless of angle. A very tough position to be in if you are a whitetail deer. Yeah......what he said! |
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Post by edge on Apr 18, 2009 7:16:40 GMT -5
SNIP. Edge: By unreliable past 300 yds are you talking from an expansion standpoint? Someone who likes to test stuff could fire a reduced load of 25 gr 4759 into water, wet news paper or ballistic gel and figure this out if they needed to know. A 250 started at 2,600 should be honking along at about 1500 fps at 300 and 1240 fps at 400...still above the advertised operating range of the bullet. However, it COULD be tested by loading it down and shooting over a chrony. At these speeds (1200-1500) I have killed 7-8 whitetails with my 100 gr Thunderhawk and .429 240 gr XTPs from 25-125 tds. All braodside shots that I recall. All full penetration...most stopping under far side hide. Average mushrooms and short death runs. I think a hole thru the boiler room at these speeds work good if the hole is .65 caliber or .45 caliber SNIP. IMO, you shoot them considerably faster than the average! I would say that most loads are in the 2300-2400 top end. If you shoot a 0.21 BC bullet @2300 fps then it will be right around 1000 fps at 300 yards. THIS DATA IS WRONG, I don't know how I came up with this IMO, somewhere around there, perhaps slightly past, I don't think that if these hit soft tissue that they will open too much...maybe yes and maybe no edge. |
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Post by edge on Apr 18, 2009 7:31:05 GMT -5
I think this is all pretty funny. We must use a solid to anchor a dangerous animal quickly. However, using a solid bullet on a deer may have it run a mile? OK...the solid used on dangerous game is meant to break structure and reach vitals. DRT or incapacitated right there. And why doesn't this apply to deer? NO deer with it's vitals crossed with ANY bullet is going to run a mile. Solid bullets (Barnes) junk on deer? Shame on who said that. Not sure how many deer that person has shot with them...but this person has shot enough to feed a small county.....county not country. All of them together haven't run 1/2 mile! ;D ;D SNIP Who wrote this? Perhaps I took your meaning wrong, if you meant a Monometal bullet, or a flat nosed solid like a LBT bullet then I wholeheartedly agree. But, an elephant, hippo, rhino bullet does not open or expand. If you miss the heart, spine or brain on a deer then it will indeed run a very long way with virtually no blood trail. IMO edge. |
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 18, 2009 7:45:27 GMT -5
SNIP. <snip> If you shoot a 0.21 BC bullet @2300 fps then it will be right around 1000 fps at 300 yards. edge. Does anyone really shoot 250 gr bullets @ 2300 fps anymore? ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Apr 18, 2009 9:01:08 GMT -5
Edge you may want to recheck your numbers. Both sources of information I use show a .21 BC bullet with a MV of 2300 still going 1300 at 300 yds....a full 300 fps faster then what you wrote. I think most of the people referencing Barnes bullet call them solids...I think even RB has used the term. And it's sort of correct because it's a monolithic bullet. However it's designed to expand quite nicely without fragging too much or at all. And to Dougedwards: Some folks do shoot at book load levels so Edge's point is valid. However, many shoot this bullet in the 2600+ range too. If shot at 2800 fps which I have been known to do, the 300 yds speed is about 1640....400 yds 1350. (according to ballistic information from speer and nosler for a .21 BC) |
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Post by Savage Shooter on Apr 18, 2009 19:19:12 GMT -5
I am just glad the goat is well!
I have seen very little in this thread about accuracy. I do not care how good a bullet is that won't shoot consistently.
On that note I still have not gotten solids, monolithics, all coppers or whatever you call em (Barnes) to shoot like jacketed bullets at longer ranges in the .50.
I see some of the guys getting accuracy like that from the .45's with the coppers, but still seems like most of them report the 200 SST as most accurate/consistent.
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Post by dougedwards on Apr 18, 2009 20:05:01 GMT -5
I have seen these "goat exercise" sessions many times over the past three years and they are always interesting to read from a theoretical standpoint. It is no question that two men can observe the same phenomenon and come away describing what they think that they saw very differently. Is there any question that any two men might have varied opinions on what might happen if certain conditions might occur? I honestly believe that there is more at work here than just opposing theoretical opinions. Someone as intelligent and aware as RB would not think of a bullet that has been responsible for so many hundreds of kills on whitetail deer "junk" unless there were some underlying reason. That reason most certainly lies in the fact that so many hunters fall prey to the marketing tactics of the big bullet manufacturers who have successfully convinced us to pay more for a bullet that gets the job done. It doesn't matter that the bullet that it is replacing in our arsenal also got the job done just as well. Most any fisherman has heard that artificial baits are constructed in such a way as to attract fisherman, not so much fish. These types of tactics have no exclusive rights to only hunters and fisherman but invade every fabric of our capitalistic society. But that is ok with me because God gave me a brain and I suppose that I should use it in making decisions. I myself have come full circle as far as bullet choices are concerned. I started with the 300 gr Hornady XTP back in the old IMR4227 days. Eventually, because so many in this message board were shooting 250 grainers I moved on to SST/Shockwave bullets then to the Barnes Spitfires. Then to the most accurate bullet from my gun the Barnes Original Semi-Spitzer in 300 grain. When that bullet became rather scarce and hard to get I switched to the 290 grain TMZ. Not to bore you with my history but I can tell you that all of those bullets killed deer. The only one that disappointed me was a 250 grain shockwave shot fired at 2500 fps into a small whitetail buck standing only 20 yards away. The deer ran about 100 yards but to my happiness ran in a complete circle and expired in almost the same place that I had shot him. There was blood everywhere and the entrace hole looked as if I had tossed a grenade at him. I am very fortunate that he didn't take a hard left turn into the swamp because that would have been a very tough recovery in chest waders. Saying all of that to say this. I am back to hunting with the 300 gr XTP in my 50 caliber Savage. Not because it is the most accurate bullet from my gun. Not because I love to target shoot with it. But strickly because it gets the job done with the least cost to me. No matter whether it hits it's furry target at 2500 fps or 1500 fps the results are the same whether good placement or not. Dead deer laying in the blood trail. For those who like the $1.00-$200 per bullet choice I say go for it. In the end we will both be standing next to our kills and hopefully happy about it. As always in my humble uninformed opinion.  Doug |
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Post by fowlplay on Apr 19, 2009 9:05:15 GMT -5
Doug, Your hunting and shooting experience mimics my own. I also started out with the XTP's then to the SST's and now to the TMZ's with a few others in between. Guess what? They all killed deer rather well. The 300 XTP IMO put them down quicker than all the bullets I have tried. I might even go back to this bullet after I run out of my large supply of TMZ's I'm cheap! I prefer the TMZ's for several reasons. 1) I don't worry about shoulder shots or angle shots. I always said that if you going to hit one back by the hopper you better use the copper. ;D With these bullets I aim for the shoulder. 2) They expand on contact even at a slow speed of 1100 fps. 3) My last point, which is important to me is that they do not tear up the meat of the deer like jacketed bullets do. Small hole in and small hole out. Everything in between is just Cambell soup. I have seen SST's waste a whole shoulder. With that said, I feel Savage Shooter is 100% correct. The best bullet in the world is not going to get you a deer if it is not accurate out of your gun. Steve |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Apr 19, 2009 9:24:21 GMT -5
I firmly believe that with this group of guys, having the bullet shooting accurately is a forgone conclusion to the discussion here. If it's not then I don't know you guys as good as I think.
It's been a good thread.
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Post by edge on Apr 19, 2009 10:21:21 GMT -5
Edge you may want to recheck your numbers. Both sources of information I use show a .21 BC bullet with a MV of 2300 still going 1300 at 300 yds....a full 300 fps faster then what you wrote. SNIP I admit that I have no idea where those numbers came from  edge. |
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Post by dannoboone on Apr 20, 2009 12:22:49 GMT -5
Let me relate just one experience of what others might call bullet failure. I can't remember the name of the bullet right now but it was a 245 gr Barnes all copper with a very narrow hollow point. I was shooting it with 68 grain of RL-7 and the bullet entered toward the rear of the lung area and made a very small hole going in and the exit hole was not any larger. This was a 40 yard shot. Now this bullet could not have expanded or opened up like it should have. All it did was put a very large buck on the ground and he stayed there. You see, even solids can have a shock affect. Doug I made a very similar shot at 90yds with the 245gr Spitfire (NOT a solid........just all copper.......solids have no hollow point or anything else for opening up to mushroom). Yes, it too made a very small hole going in as well as out-----of the hide, that is. As edge very accurately explained, this is usually the case, but the area of ribs, tissue, lungs between those holes in the hide most certainly told me the the bullet mushroomed and did some very major damage that the hide would tend to hide (pun intended). My first deer with the 10MLII was shot through the scapula with a 200gr SW (man-o-man it was tough to get them to shoot well in the .50 tube) at, again, around 90yds. He dropped where he stood, DRT. MOST of the bullet made it through the exit shoulder before the jacket completely shelled out all of the lead. Total bullet failure? D'ya REALLY think I cared with such a drop-dead shot as that? This ol' pup sees both sides, but favors RB's points. I have a number of discontinued lighter Barnes bullets that were cheap on clearance one & two years ago, and will have fun playing with them, and may even hunt with them in the .45 barrel. I have a few of the 195gr bullets, but they aren't as accurate out of my rifle as the 200SST. So this fall, it could come down to using a 150gr Spitfire type or the SST. Accuracy plays the major role in my decisions. If it turns out to be the SST and a 20yd shot presents itself, it's gonna get it in the lungs. Even if it looks like it took an hand grenade, it's going down fast and I don't eat venison ribs anyway. |
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corn flakes.
