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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 2, 2009 11:30:02 GMT -5
I guess I fail to see your point Buck.. Since from what I see it I don't know what it means to be over paid... Most I ever made in my life was where I am now ..I made 51K one year..that was working 6 days a week 3 out of 4 weeks a month and 10 hour days the other 5.... To me that is BIG money.. But prior to that I worked in a non union shop for 15 years.. ZERO benefits and I really mean ZERO no paid holiday's or anything ..You got what you earned..if you fought for it..Best thing ever happened was when we got a timeclock..he couldn't argue with that. I am not saying anybody specific would benefit from organized labor.. But please do look where it has helped us.. Now as far as you say about someone making $90 an hour to do one job on a line.. I will take your word for it ( I have no reason to doubt what I do not know)... I would have to agree that seems way out of line. And in this case as there may be many other's this could be OVER organized. I lived in a depressed area (again) and our wages here do somewhat reflect our cost of living. I hear of large wage's in the large city and metro area's.. And am jealous..However rent and such in those places surely is greater than where I live. But I believe society in whole has helped to get us where we are.. And industry worker's have fought hard to raise their style of living. And I will also agree that t many have overdone it. But I bet they will have to take concessions in the near future. I with you have given back much... And may have to give more. But I can not complain about what I have graciously been given by God.You And I here are in a pickle.. It really don't matter really HOW we got here.. How we gonna save our way of life for our children and grand children's stop beatin me up OK.. (LOL) I do enjoy your comment's . You and I didnt creat this thing... And they aint gonna listen to us to fix it either Drop Check u pm's
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Post by Buckrub on Apr 2, 2009 11:48:29 GMT -5
Yeah.....clearly your situation points out the huge differences in your own union, much less between different unions. Many UAW guys are getting the gold mine, sounds like you are living low in the shaft! But you're doing honest work and I appreciate that above all else.
I just believe in Individual Responsibility. I'd never sue a drug manufacturer for bad side effects, for example. No one held a gun to my head to make me eat some medicine. It's all on me. Blame will kill you, inside. Life is up to you. And mine is up to me. Period. That's why I hate to see folks take coerced tax money and give it to companies or individuals for any reason.
For what it's worth, I doubt I could keep up with you for one day..........I'm sure you outwork me 10 to 1.
I get paid for what I know! (ha.......I keep telling myself that).......
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 2, 2009 14:27:56 GMT -5
Ya see what ya done Buck.. Ya done went and got loud and scared em all off.... Does this mean ya don't love me anymore? Drop
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Post by Buckrub on Apr 2, 2009 15:01:43 GMT -5
Nah. Last time I got mad at anyone was 8th grade.
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Post by chuck41 on Apr 2, 2009 16:21:15 GMT -5
12pt,
Those $75 an hour figures you have seen are not what the employee makes. They reflect the total hourly cost of labor to the company. In addition to the employee wage you have to add the employer's portion of social security, the cost of the health plan, tuition assistance, dental plans, employer retirement contributions, paid vacation time, break rules, and whatever other benefits/costs the unions have negotiated. In your case it will still not be $75, but for a lot of UAW jobs in the hardest hit areas it certainly will.
Currently wages going to union auto manufacturing employees in the Michigan area are nearly 50% higher than those to Toyota and others that have located in "Right to Work" states where employment cannot be denied for an employee that refuses to join and pay dues to a union. That is one of the primary reasons Toyota and similar are not in the same deep funk as GM, Chrysler, and to a slightly lesser degree Ford.
For many years unions and their members have most commonly considered the company the enemy. They have viewed the company as being a bottomless pit of money that they could blackmail by striking whenever it suits their fancy to force whatever they demanded. Every contract negotiation has been turned into an adversarial relationship. That is one heck of a lousy way to run a railroad. Unions have become more militaristic and less willing to truly negotiate in the best interest of both employees and the company. A union should want the company to prosper for the benefit of their members, but most today don't. Union organizers have badgered workers to sign union cards, followed them to their homes, and harassed them continuously to get their signatures and subjected them to ridicule from their coworkers because they don't want to sign. There have been at least a couple news reports verifying that recently. Now the union bosses are pressuring Congress to pass "card check" to allow these jack-booted thugs do what they do best!
What good does it do for the workers to get big wage concessions from companies and then see the jobs go to Mexico where the company can ship parts down there, assemble a vehicle and ship it back for sale at a lower price? I visited a GM plant in Mexico that has over a mile of assembly space under roof. Their labor costs are many times less than in US plants even with the cost of shipping both ways added on. Mexico would love to see "card check" become law in the US as that will send lots more jobs south.
It is the same thing that you see in Congress. They keep voting benefits for their constituencies at the cost to the voters and their children and grandchildren with no concern to what it is doing to the country. They are demanding more and more of industry in the way of "green" concessions, work rules, anti-pollution requirements, OSHA requirements, and even contributions to their reelection campaigns. In so doing they have made China the manufacturing center of the world a distinction that used to be held by the USA.
Historically unions did great things for the workers in this country, but much of union activity in recent years has cost the workers, the companies, and the country more than it has returned in true benefits. I have several friends who have small manufacturing facilities near here. They pay competitive wages (better than the WalMarts of the world by a bunch) and offer benefits and advancement to their workers that make sense. They have to do so to keep good workers. Those days of the "company town" that gave rise to musical lyrics like "I owe my soul to the company store" were a long time ago. Today if you are working for a jerk, there is an alternative. Go find a better job and when you find it, make yourself so valuable to them that you have job insurance. And if you are willing to do the work and take the risk, learn what you can then go out and open a business of your own.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 2, 2009 17:25:11 GMT -5
I was just at a seminar recently.. Did you know that the UAW has fallen to an all time low... It is at the point where it started back in the depression era.... With immigration and illegal aliens in our labor force as they are..Have you got any idea's to preserve our way of life..North of the border that is. The manufacturer's love this way of thiniking... When our jobs are all exported.. So will be pur way of life. Drop
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Post by ozark on Apr 2, 2009 21:00:41 GMT -5
Good post Chuck 41. Who will write the rise and fall of the USA? The book isn't out but the story seems to be ready for print.
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Post by corvair on Apr 3, 2009 5:11:10 GMT -5
petev,
Better read the Constitution of the United States. The president has no powers to hire or fire anyone in the private sector. "Executive order" as Obama calls it is his abused term!
The President can really not do much without the system of "checks and balances" as set forth by our forefathers. The president can issue a state of Marshall Law if he feels the public interest is threatened, but to fire the CEO of G.M.?
Another violation of the Constitution: "Rombo" Emmanuel was put in charge of the 2010 Census and told to report directly to Obama. The job of census director is to report to the Secty. of Commerce per Article 1 and Sec. 2 of the Constitution. Course it couldn't have anything to do with the fact that the Secty. of Commerce happens to be a GOP would it? Wonder what the President is going to do with the census data??? Some manipulation for party lines I'm sure!
Shall I go on? There are other violations by Mr. Obama and the Congress and the Senate!
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nwhs1969
Button Buck
A Bad Day In The Woods Is Always Better Than A Good Day At Work!
Posts: 14
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Post by nwhs1969 on Apr 3, 2009 6:51:18 GMT -5
The U.S. Government has no business giving any money to any private business for any reason, nor dictating any "terms" of who runs the company if they do. Logic to the contrary notwithstanding, we have Crossed the Rubicon. God save the United States of America. No one else has a shot.
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Post by edge on Apr 3, 2009 8:09:42 GMT -5
IMO, whether the UAW Detroit workers get paid $75 per hour or $7.50 or $750 means zero to me!
I don't begrudge anyone for what they make, and don't have much sympathy for what they don't make.....this is a free Country! You make what you make by your own decision! Don't make enough, then get better qualifications and find a new job somewhere else!
GM and the UAW came to an agreement on what to pay...and they both thought that it was fair at the time....times have changed!!
A while back the Mayor of NYC decided to cut Police recruits and add more Parking Ticket Agents because they bring in more revenue!
Here in NJ our State Police are a joke. They should be called Corzine Revenue Agents. With the exception of responding to accidents that they fail to prevent by not enforcing most traffic rules, they sit in hidden areas to give out speeding tickets. Then, they race at HIGH speed 80-90+ mph back to their hiding spot to write another ticket! They are highly paid and retire in 20/25 years!
edge.
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Post by petev on Apr 3, 2009 8:34:57 GMT -5
petev, Better read the Constitution of the United States. The president has no powers to hire or fire anyone in the private sector. "Executive order" as Obama calls it is his abused term! corvair, I've never seen that line in the constitution. Just where is it? If it's not banned by the constitution, or any other law, then he can do it. Right?
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Post by petev on Apr 3, 2009 8:37:49 GMT -5
Edge, same situation here. I got a ticket for an expired inspection sticker. $50 ticket plus $85 "State mandated surcharge", plus all sorts of specific requirements on how to pay it, and answer the ticket. But if you need a cop, at any level, good luck!
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Post by Buckrub on Apr 3, 2009 8:41:37 GMT -5
No Petev, that is constitutionally 100% false, sir.
Amendment X precludes and obviate the "logic" you are trying to use. Any power that is not specifically mentioned in the Constitution, then Amendment X gives that power to the STATES, not the Executive Branch of the Federal Government.
And tell me sir....do you REALLY want a precedent of any sitting President having such dictatorial powers as literally dictating policy, and even firing, employees in the Private Sector? Honestly, do you??
If so.........we part company.
We literally have an attack underway on several fronts. The Democrats and Liberals want a Federal System....which was argued and discarded by the Founding Fathers. They want a popular POTUS vote nationwide, and they want lots of federal rules and regs. But the Constitution doesn't define a strong federal government. It is the united STATES. They are clearly individual states, but united in several areas, but not all.
No one seems to get that.
Thus, we'll keep going and erode the entire Constitution and no one will stop it.
Sad sad stuff.
Oh, and I think you misunderstood Corvair. You seem to be agreeing with him. He is also stating that "Executive Order" isn't in the Constitution.....and that the current Pres is misusing that term terribly. But I'll admit a lot of POTUS' have done the same under the same guise. Makes me sick no matter who does it, but this guy scares the bejeebers out of me.
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Post by Chris Champion on Apr 3, 2009 9:35:09 GMT -5
Chuck,
That was a great post. This labor cost and legacy cost, (retired worker benefits), is what in-part forced the Big 3 to squeeze every cent of cost savings from their American parts suppliers rather than look inward for cost reduction opportunities. The UAW had them by the you know what. When there was no juice left to be squeezed out of their US supply base, they started shopping over seas and put thousands of Americans workers, (union and non-union alike), out of work. Plus the purchasing executives get incentive bonuses for piece price cost reduction, and they don't care how they get it.
I've been to a dozen Big 3 assembly plants in the US and Canada. Ever seen anyone getting paid $29/hr (actual wage) for taking a nap? That was what I saw the first time I was in a GM assembly plant. I asked the supervisor in that area who was my guide why the guy was sleeping on the job and why he was letting him. The answer I got: "The UAW has his job double staffed, so him and the other guy work in 2 or 3 hour shifts and then switch off. Pathetic.
Organized labor had a place in the past, but in todays global economy it has put the US in a distinct competitive disadvantage.
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Post by ozark on Apr 3, 2009 10:17:17 GMT -5
An inspection team found a room with two employees sitting behind desks with nothing to do. Ask their job description they both said they had been there several months and had not been given anything to do. After a long discussion the inspection team decided that one had to go because it was duplication.
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Post by chuck41 on Apr 3, 2009 22:43:32 GMT -5
An inspection team found a room with two employees sitting behind desks with nothing to do. Ask their job description they both said they had been there several months and had not been given anything to do. After a long discussion the inspection team decided that one had to go because it was duplication. If that had been a government job then they probably would have had to hire two more employees. One to document the work they weren't doing and another to do time and motion studies to determine how they could do nothing more efficiently.
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