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Post by ozark on Jul 29, 2012 10:40:45 GMT -5
To muddy the waters permit me to point out that there are contridictions throughout the bible. Read the first and second chapter of Genesis and look at the days the trees were made. Was it the second or the 6th day? I think we need to get by these stumbling blocks before we can accept without confusion what the Bible actually teaches us. Ozark
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Post by AJ on Jul 29, 2012 11:48:54 GMT -5
My beef with religion is that each thinks their thoughts and direction is the only way, and that followers of any other belief is going to rot for eternity. Christianity is relatively young on the scale of how long humans have been around, to be the answer. Before missionaries began spanning the globe spreading the word, what happened on the other regions of the world? Did the hundreds of thousands of people on this earth that never heard of Christianity go to hell when they died?
I am responsible for making my own future. I do not put faith in a deity to guide, fix, or alter my course.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2012 14:11:52 GMT -5
Wilms, This country was founded by individuals who "blindly" followed their faith and protested the catholic church in England. Maybe scientology will give you some "facts or prophecy that you can put your hands on......It works for Tom Cruise. For me I will blindly go to heaven when my time is over here.......and I hope that one day you will see the light..... Thats called FAITH......................... Greenhorn
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Post by ozarxoffspring on Jul 29, 2012 19:02:05 GMT -5
Man, oh, man! I am truly glad so many of you have contributed to this subject. Daddy loves a good sparring match, and the more civil, the more likely he is to read comments in full, and respond.
I do not know how to answer the questions that Daddy asks me, or has brought up here in the forum. One such question is: "Why do Christians use passages in the Bible to PROVE the Bible? Why is it their starting block for all questions? If my question is concerning the authenticity OF the Bible, why is it I hear the swishing of licked fingers and thumbs turning delicately, fragile, thin Bible pages?" I give him the same answer every time. I wish, for him, I could quench this thirst he has for the answer to this particular question. I understand what it is he is asking. If a person does not deem the Bible the perfect, infallible, inspired word of God, then how can it be used to prove or disprove anything at all.
It is so unbelievably easy for me to believe ALL of "the stories" told in the Bible such as Jonah and the belly of the fish, God using the rod of a very human man by the name of Moses to part not the Reed Sea, but the Red Sea, how two of every living thing, male and female fit in the arc of which we have the exact measurements, again, as told by the Bible. I believe it all, as told, no questions asked, I just simply believe that if God said it, in no matter what form he took at the time of the statement(s), it is the truth.
Jesus said that to be born of the spirit once already born of the flesh, one must come AS A CHILD, trusting that it is the way He says it is. It wasn't said (to my knowledge) come as a questioning child, to everyone who has his/her own opinion, we were told to come to HIM as a child. And why should we believe what the Bible states as fact? BECAUSE HE SAID SO!
When my children were small, they didn't go to one another and ask "Why is the sky blue?" "Why do I have to do what Mom says?" No! They came to ME! Why? was a frequently asked question that at times, because of many unnamed restrictions at any given time, the answer, "BECAUSE I SAID SO!" was the only answer that was given at that particular time---at least until the time came when I could explain to his or her understanding.
Can you possibly imagine how many times in a 24-hr period of time God, Christ, or Holy Spirit hears our why's even if only in a murmurer or a groan? We are told to work our our own salvation, and if we ask, we shall be given. As much as we earthly parents love our earthly children, do you not believe our PERFECT and SINLESS Father loves His children even more? I do, and it is not hard for me to believe, either.
I believe it is faith, and faith alone that we are asked to exercise when it comes to many earthly, and Heavenly certainties. Faith does not make us fickle, weak, and crutch-users. NO! Faith is what makes mere men MIGHTY MEN, fearful women, women of unshaken faith.
If one does not hold the Holy Bible as "where truth begins," if the inspired Word of God is what is in question, I can do nothing, I fear, but pray for your perfect understanding of the Word. Praise God, that is just enough. Accept the ABC's as just that. Do not attempt to convince others that they are nothing but unwritten songs. Don't make it hard, for it is so simple. Only believe.
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Post by ozark on Jul 30, 2012 7:09:51 GMT -5
I think my daughter will get much agreement on her post because birds of a feather flock together. I know she is sure good to me. My lifeline.
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Post by cfvickers on Jul 30, 2012 7:39:00 GMT -5
I think she pretty much covered the square ozark!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 22:29:58 GMT -5
Man, oh, man! I am truly glad so many of you have contributed to this subject. Daddy loves a good sparring match, and the more civil, the more likely he is to read comments in full, and respond. I do not know how to answer the questions that Daddy asks me, or has brought up here in the forum. One such question is: "Why do Christians use passages in the Bible to PROVE the Bible? Why is it their starting block for all questions? If my question is concerning the authenticity OF the Bible, why is it I hear the swishing of licked fingers and thumbs turning delicately, fragile, thin Bible pages?" I give him the same answer every time. I wish, for him, I could quench this thirst he has for the answer to this particular question. I understand what it is he is asking. If a person does not deem the Bible the perfect, infallible, inspired word of God, then how can it be used to prove or disprove anything at all. It is so unbelievably easy for me to believe ALL of "the stories" told in the Bible such as Jonah and the belly of the fish, God using the rod of a very human man by the name of Moses to part not the Reed Sea, but the Red Sea, how two of every living thing, male and female fit in the arc of which we have the exact measurements, again, as told by the Bible. I believe it all, as told, no questions asked, I just simply believe that if God said it, in no matter what form he took at the time of the statement(s), it is the truth. Jesus said that to be born of the spirit once already born of the flesh, one must come AS A CHILD, trusting that it is the way He says it is. It wasn't said (to my knowledge) come as a questioning child, to everyone who has his/her own opinion, we were told to come to HIM as a child. And why should we believe what the Bible states as fact? BECAUSE HE SAID SO! When my children were small, they didn't go to one another and ask "Why is the sky blue?" "Why do I have to do what Mom says?" No! They came to ME! Why? was a frequently asked question that at times, because of many unnamed restrictions at any given time, the answer, "BECAUSE I SAID SO!" was the only answer that was given at that particular time---at least until the time came when I could explain to his or her understanding. Can you possibly imagine how many times in a 24-hr period of time God, Christ, or Holy Spirit hears our why's even if only in a murmurer or a groan? We are told to work our our own salvation, and if we ask, we shall be given. As much as we earthly parents love our earthly children, do you not believe our PERFECT and SINLESS Father loves His children even more? I do, and it is not hard for me to believe, either. I believe it is faith, and faith alone that we are asked to exercise when it comes to many earthly, and Heavenly certainties. Faith does not make us fickle, weak, and crutch-users. NO! Faith is what makes mere men MIGHTY MEN, fearful women, women of unshaken faith. If one does not hold the Holy Bible as "where truth begins," if the inspired Word of God is what is in question, I can do nothing, I fear, but pray for your perfect understanding of the Word. Praise God, that is just enough. Accept the ABC's as just that. Do not attempt to convince others that they are nothing but unwritten songs. Don't make it hard, for it is so simple. Only believe. Wow, This is AWESOME!!!! One thing I try to remind myself about the bible is it has been written many times by different people and translated many times. I believe the bible is like the telephone game we played as children in school. However, with that said I also believe that when the Holy Spirit reveals himself to us threw reading the bible then God will show us his purpose in our lives and others. I believe the bible was intended for us to read and fill us with the Holy Spirit where the Holy Spirit will take over and really fill us with God's heart. My prayer is that each and everyone of you will be incouraged by Ozarxoffspring's post to challenge yourselves to open your mind to the possiblities of our Savior! May God bless you in everything you do! River Rat
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Post by smokepole50 on Aug 8, 2012 19:03:22 GMT -5
I am truly sorry that I did not see this post and reply to it before Ben's passing. I really hope he found the answer he was looking for.
In the spirit in which Ben started this thread I will continue it on hoping that someone here now or in the future will gain some understanding from it.
I have opinions pretty much concerning every question that has been asked here thus far. I how ever would like to start with a bit of my story. I struggled for a long time with science and geology. I walked the isle at age 14 in my local church to be saved but struggled as an adult with dinosaur bones and a host of other things that made me doubt the Bible's authenticity. Finally at age 30 in a revival I saw myself for what I truly am, a sinner deserving only judgment from a HOLY GOD. I think most people on this earth see themselves as their own god. They make their way in this life and they decide what is right and wrong in their own eyes. This is where most people fall short of the grace of the one true God. Until you allow the Holy Spirit to show you that you in fact are not God and that you are a lowly sinner in need of salvation and deserving condemnation you will never understand or believe the Bible, PERIOD.
You first have to believe that there is a God that created all things. Next you have to realize it is not you. Then ask the holy spirit to show you why you are a sinner. Sin is carried down in each generation just like DNA because sin causes separation from a Holy God. The blood sacrifices prior to Jesus covered this sin so God could continue to bless the Jews. Once Jesus died on the cross a perfect lamb had been slain and there was no need for further sacrifices of any kind, only acceptance of the one perfect sacrifice, Jesus Christ. God loved his son just like you would love your own and He will not allow anyone into heaven who does not believe His Son was who He said He was.
Next you have to understand the word Holy and Omnipotent. God is God and if he decided not to include an explanation why he did something then it should not matter because He is God. Over the years I have come to believe that it does not matter that God did not explain how the dinosaur bones got in the ground. I believe God made the dinosaurs and when he decided to make man he killed the dinosaurs so man would not be eaten by them, nuff said. Remember God is God and does not answer to you. Besides people 2000 years ago would not have even known what a dinosaur bone was if he had laid out a complete description of them.
I will try and write more later in regards to the questions that have been asked but in closing for now I will leave you with a few thoughts.....
If Jesus was not God and did not pay the price for your sin on the cross then it is all a lie...........
When people are dieing they don't cry out Oh my Budda or Oh my Muhammad......why do you think that is?
All sin is equal because the slightest of sins will cause separation between you and a Holy God. Therefore you can not judge one sin less then another because each and every sin would condemn you to hell.
When you are saved you are not transformed into a sinless being you are forgiven for being a sinner. You are still the same sinner in the same sinful flesh with the same sinful wants you just try and control those wants and ask God to forgive you when you fail to control your sin. You will not be sinless until you reach heaven so don't judge Christians who are still in sinful bodies, they are still human.
Smokepole
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Post by smokepole50 on Aug 8, 2012 21:31:26 GMT -5
Why do Catholics believe you can pray someone out of Sheol... www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=113I'm really not 100% sure but I do know they believe that giving money to the church so the priest can pray your relative out of Sheol/Purgatory is possible. This is why so many rich Catholics of the past have left so much money to the church. There are two problems with this theory. 1) You are the one who needs to get down on your knees and pray for forgiveness to a Holy God and his name is Jesus and you can't do that when your dead. Know one repeat know one can do this for you. 2) If it was possible to pay someone to pray to God for you for the forgiveness of sins and redemption then this would fall under works because you earned the money you paid the priest with. Works are only a sign that you have been saved, not a means by which to gain salvation. If you are saved the bible says you will bear fruit. Bad people getting off the hook at the last minute.......... This kind of gets under everyone skin just a bit but be glad this is Gods policy. There may come a day when someone you love and care for just slides in by the skin of their teeth. It may even be you. The Bible says all of our righteousness are as filthy rags before a Holy God, who are we to judge anyone.
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Post by dougedwards on Aug 11, 2012 23:03:50 GMT -5
I don't have my glasses on and have not read all of the comments here. I do know from what I have read that there have been some very sincere and genuine comments made.
I feel that I should comment on the question of biblical authority. Is it that the recorded words that have been written by various men a reflection of thoughts and sentiments of the one and all powerful living God? If so, how can that be since even the scriptures reflect that God's thoughts are not man's thoughts?
The records of the acts and words of the life of Jesus found within the four gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John reveal that Jesus did, in fact, believe that the Holy Scriptures revealed the heart of God. Even when Jesus was tempted by Satan, He did not engage in a conversation but only offered Satan a scriptural response to each temptation.
It is reasonable to assume that since men have written the accounts recorded in the Holy Bible, and that since men are fallible, that the message of the Bible must also be fallible. That is to say that it cannot be the reflection of God's thoughts because God must be incapable of mistakes or misunderstandings. It is my belief that although the Bible was written by fallible men and written in their own various styles and chosen words, there is nothing that is written there that God did not intend to be there.
Yes, there is mystery. There is confusion. There is even conflict. But in the end.......the just shall live by faith. It is through faith that spiritual things are discerned.
1 Corinthians 1 (New King James Version)
Christ the Power and Wisdom of God
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Glory Only in the Lord
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”
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Post by ozarxoffspring on Aug 17, 2012 23:55:33 GMT -5
smokepole50 and dougedwards I know you guys are 10-pointers and mossy horns, respectively, and I am a lowly fork horn, but I'm telling you that I truly enjoyed and took to heart both of your posts. I've lost the one person I looked up to most, but I thank God you guys continue to spread the Gospel, and for that, I honor you. Teresa
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Post by dougedwards on Aug 18, 2012 8:22:46 GMT -5
smokepole50 and dougedwards I know you guys are 10-pointers and mossy horns, respectively, and I am a lowly fork horn, but I'm telling you that I truly enjoyed and took to heart both of your posts. I've lost the one person I looked up to most, but I thank God you guys continue to spread the Gospel, and for that, I honor you. Teresa Teresa.......the scripture found in the first chapter of Paul's letter to the Corinthians clearly indicates that God uses the lowly fork horn to accomplish His will here on earth. The great and mighty accomplish according to their own abilities but when the lowly is filled with the Spirit of God it becomes evident that it is God, not man, at work there. We all know of the most recognizable scripture of the New Testament which is John 3:16 which says that God loved the world to the extent that He sent His only begotten son to save the world. But if you read on ....the scripture explains that not all will accept him. Some will use their minds and reasoning ability to question the very existence of God. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.read on......................................................... 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
Jesus said that we are to worship in Spirit and in Truth. If we only worshiped God in Spirit then we would have the potential to do a type of Maharishi transendental meditation where no specific God is acknowledged and whose character is not revealed. If we worshiped God only in Truth then we fall into the dilemma of the Pharisees. We know all the words to say but we have no heart to accompany the head in this worship. In other words, we are able to sing amazing grace....but we just are not amazed by it. There is clear instruction in the Holy Bible on how to submit to God thus getting to know Him personally. It is only after our submission that other revelation of Him and about Him is slowly imparted to His believers. There will always be those who will seek to prove or disprove God and they will sometimes do that by challenging the validity of the scriptures. No man can use the excuse that he cannot see God since God's workmanship is clearly seen in nature. But man is able to use his reasoning power to dispute the word of God. And guess what........God let's him do it. Teresa......your faith and your love is all that you need. God uses the fork horn to show to the world that He is God and you are evidence of that. Doug
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Post by ozarxoffspring on Aug 18, 2012 15:07:32 GMT -5
Thank you, Doug. And of course, that reminds me of a joke: You know the Bible says that we are all parts which work together in the family of God. We all have different spiritual gifts, and we should be using the gift(s) that were given us by God. Well...........it is said that the Big Toe had a talk with our Creator one day and was begging to be an Eye rather than a Big Toe. He so disliked being a Big Toe and talked of how wonderful it would be to be an Eye that God finally relented to his pleas. He told the Big Toe, "OK, Big Toe, I will allow you to be an Eye as you so desire. But I warn you...all you will ever see will be the inside of a sock." teehee
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