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Post by lwh723 on May 20, 2012 23:34:53 GMT -5
I hesitate to even post, but it's a pretty funny read. And it is a good reminder about what can happen with a double load. Be careful, use a witness mark! www.namlhunt.com/muzzleloaderlies.htmlComments: 1) He's spot on with some of his "pithy" commentary, but none of it regarding the function of the 10ML-II. (I think you'll know what I'm talking about after you read it.) ;D 2) He claims the last production run was from "spare" parts. Guess he's choosing to ignore the fact that the action hole spacing and barrel shank is different. 3) Interesting that his blow up occurred at an admittedly busy range... boy that doesn't sound like any of the double load stories we've heard here. Wait a second...how does it go? I was talking to my buddy; I was in a hurry; I wasn't paying attention; I didn't use a witness mark.
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Post by rossman40 on May 21, 2012 11:06:01 GMT -5
Having been on the board almost from the very start I've seen a lot. TB was a important part of the early days. He had more shots down range then anyone else at the time. Now a lot of experimenting was done back then and TB lead the Lil'gun line.
Few may remember RW coming on here in 2001 and saying we were all a bunch of idiots for using smokeless in a ML and we would blow ourselves up. The TB vs RW battles were almost comical.
What really gets my goat is when they come up with the line "my extensive testing" or "my exhaustive research" and it is data/work done by members of this board and was posted here.
It would be interesting to come up with a number of shots just the board members have put down range without incident. Not saying there were not incidents but I do not remember a member ever rupturing a barrel, a few bulges yes and even then most those can be traced to operator error. Perhaps even a number of shots per incident.
As far as lawsuits there will always be some guy that will make a mistake and claim he did nothing wrong and it was all the guns fault. Supposedly Bad Bull has a lawsuit pending, I do not know the details.
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Post by edwardamason on May 21, 2012 11:46:39 GMT -5
Wasn't someone asking the other day about a breech plug staying in tact?
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Post by Savage Shooter on May 21, 2012 12:29:27 GMT -5
Wasn't someone asking the other day about a breech plug staying in tact? Yea that was me. I have never questioned the breech plug in the "savage barrel" simply because over the many I have handled they pretty much all "felt" the same as far as thread contact when screwing them in. With having only touched a few of the Pacnor was why I brought it up to begin with. Right off the bat I noticed that some, again "felt" tighter than others when screwing in the savage breech plug. Had one that at first thought the plug was not going in, started with old style plug and then tried hex plug and both felt same. Now this may have only been a burr left on the barrel threads as it got better after running it in and out a few times. Then I got my barrel put on, (Rossman installed). First thing I noticed was how much easier or possibly better the breech plug fit it. I was merely mentioning that if the barrel was threaded slightly wrong or "big" reducing thread contact that since we have NOT seen a failure of the plug we do NOT know what its capacity truly is. Shooting the heavy weight bullets sabotless with pressures we now see approaching and surpassing 50K that with any overloading mistake, well lets just say it is hopeful the barrel lets go first every time............... Not doubting these setups strength in any way........ but we are way past what used to be "our" normal pressures. As far as number of shots I have exceeded 6,000 total consisting of bout 5,000 on original .50 stainless barrel and bout 1,000 now on .45 pacnor barrel.......but all on same stainless action and original bolt / firing pin / spring assembly AND still using first original breechplug. Bought a backup breechplug few years back and it has been shot one range session and put back in the box........... of note is that my original breech plug shows very little if any gas cutting like TB so suggests all the time. IMO you would have to shoot several or many shots with the plug slightly loose to ever gas cut it that much or that evenly all around it like TB suggests. If the plug bottomed out (from a mis machining plug or barrel shoulder) it would hit early on a portion and gas cut on the portion NOT in contact properly with the shoulder.
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Post by edwardamason on May 21, 2012 13:26:32 GMT -5
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Post by Savage Shooter on May 21, 2012 13:39:00 GMT -5
Wudnt wanna go an a blow up a good scope!
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Post by edwardamason on May 21, 2012 13:58:33 GMT -5
Wudnt wanna go an a blow up a good scope! Rimshot!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D Having been around the early days of this board and Smokeless ML shooting I have read countless volumes on the whole "Tobygate" Fiasco. We really don't know what happened that day. Either we take Tobys word for it as there was no loading mistake and it was a defect in the ML or we speculate on what really happened. Countless volumes have been written. Some by some knowledgeable folks on the subject and others just armchair quarterbacks. What I would really want to know is what loads he was shooting prior to this day. Was he stepping out of the box? Was he duplexing? Was he using powders in uncharted waters? Did he inspect the barrel in a regular basis for signs of fatigue or pressure signs? My pondering and gut tell me that it was either a loading mistake or trace damage that was done PRIOR to the blow up day using unconventional experimental load that had weakened the structural integrity of the barrel. Damage that might not have been detected by the naked eye or a thorough examination of the ML and its components. Truth is we will never know the truth.
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Post by mike3132 on May 21, 2012 14:56:54 GMT -5
Rossman, Your dates are a tad off but not much. It was about 2002-2003 when TB showed up and 6 months to a year later when RW made his debut. Around 2001 we had very few members and where trying to make this gun go bang every time.
Curious edwardmason did you join the board at that time? If so what was your log-in name?
Most dont know why TB did what he did but some do and Im one of them. If you know the real story certain things take on a new perspective. Mike
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2012 15:02:35 GMT -5
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Post by edwardamason on May 21, 2012 15:39:08 GMT -5
Rossman, Your dates are a tad off but not much. It was about 2002-2003 when TB showed up and 6 months to a year later when RW made his debut. Around 2001 we had very few members and where trying to make this gun go bang every time. Curious edwardmason did you join the board at that time? If so what was your log-in name? Most dont know why TB did what he did but some do and Im one of them. If you know the real story certain things take on a new perspective. Mike I lost access to my email account due to a hacker. When the board changed over I could not recover it so I cannot recall what my email was. I think my user name was blackopsglock. Maybe you can find it? I think it might have been around 2002 or 2003 when I first joined but it may have been sooner.
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Post by dannoboone on May 21, 2012 17:16:23 GMT -5
When was it that Doug changed from the old, old green board to ProBoards? I don't recall, but do remember being on that old, old green board a few months prior to the first changeover. Doug and mammaflinter really got along well with Toby, until it became apparent that not all was kosher with his story. There's just way too much behind all that to even get into it here. P.S. The second poster in that thread hit the nail squarely on the head! ;D ;D
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Post by edge on May 21, 2012 17:17:45 GMT -5
OK, if this is a safety issue then continue, if it is only bashing other members then it is not allowed by rule!
edge.
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Post by edwardamason on May 21, 2012 17:47:30 GMT -5
During the early days of SML shooting I learned a lot from both Wakeman and Toby. Took the good... discarded the bad and formulated my own opinions and things that worked for me. My kit is better today for having read their postings. Lets just say I had to way through a lot of BS to get there.
As with any so called "expert" in this industry you have to do your own homework and your own research to see if they really know what they are talking about. Some know a lot. Some think they know a lot and others are just plain full of crap.
Gun Writers are a curious breed. Many are persuaded and monopolized by greed and endorsements. I take what they have with a grain of salt until I can verify their statements with my own research and practical field employment.
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Post by edge on May 21, 2012 17:56:52 GMT -5
The Old Board started July 2004. Before that we just had about 5 pages of posts. When a new page was filled the old pages fell into the abyss...man those sabots sucked Double sabots, Devel bullets, exploding hardware stre loads Lots of fun and a lot of failed loads. edge.
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Post by rossman40 on May 21, 2012 21:07:58 GMT -5
Those were the days! I often wonder where the guys went that were shooting the 60+grs of Lil'gun.
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Post by cuda on May 22, 2012 5:18:13 GMT -5
I just wonder how much damage that the Lil'gun did to fist guns barrels? And did that blow up Toby's gun after all of the duplex loads of a WAG at what it would do just finished the job. You can mix the wrong 2 and get a bomb as he did. I do nnot think that I could go back to black powders. Smokeless is the only way to go and I think that with what we know now that it is safe. And I will build a 45 smokeless and keep my 10ML-ll 50 too.
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Post by mike3132 on May 22, 2012 7:59:05 GMT -5
Those were the days! I often wonder where the guys went that were shooting the 60+grs of Lil'gun. Im still here...... just dont shoot lil gun any more. Mike
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Post by mike3132 on May 22, 2012 8:02:49 GMT -5
I just wonder how much damage that the Lil'gun did to fist guns barrels? Lil Gun didnt hurt my barrel at all. Lil Gun in moderate loads performs pretty good. The real down side to Lil Gun is the size of the granules are small and fall threw the vent liner. Mike
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Post by rossman40 on May 22, 2012 8:32:10 GMT -5
There is only one guy that knows what happened and how he wants to tell the story. I think his claim of the breechplug design flaw is totally wrong. I've been able to show the pics to some of the Air Force experts and they all say a pressure burst. Was it due to charge overload, barrel obstruction or fatigue failure we may never know for sure. Maybe one of these days someone will have a barrel with 6K of shots Magnafluxed and borescoped. The whole story has all the drama of a good history documentary that you might see on the History Channel or 48 Hours. Till then I'm still shooting. Maybe with a bit more attention to loading procedures. I'm surprised he went back to flogging the horse, I thought they kissed and made up,
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Post by jeremylong on May 22, 2012 8:41:19 GMT -5
Those were the days! I often wonder where the guys went that were shooting the 60+grs of Lil'gun. Im still here...... just dont shoot lil gun any more. Mike Ditto...
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Post by muznut on May 22, 2012 10:02:36 GMT -5
I don't agree with everything Toby says but I think he is spot on about wakeman. Do I think smokeless is safe in a muzzle'loader designed for it? Yes I do I have used several eight pound jugs and many one pounders most of it not in a 10ml2 but I used it with no problems.
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Post by mike3132 on May 22, 2012 11:38:57 GMT -5
There is more than one who knows what happened. Too bad someone didnt end up in jail. Mike
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Post by 1shot1kill on May 24, 2012 12:28:21 GMT -5
The Old Board started July 2004. Before that we just had about 5 pages of posts. When a new page was filled the old pages fell into the abyss...man those sabots sucked Double sabots, Devel bullets, exploding hardware stre loads Lots of fun and a lot of failed loads. edge. Man I would give my left nut, to have a tractor trailer load of those 175gr DEVEL bullets again. Wasn't all the great of a hunting bullet (penetrated great!!! but little if any expansion), but was by far the most accurate bullet I have ever shot in any smokeless ML. Sub-1/4" groups at 100yds was common, was consistantly sub-MOA out to 300yds, and very fast. As far as TB is concerned, I washed my hands of him back in the spring of 2004, before his extortion attempts. Since then I have just ignored him. I hav eheard from a Savage 10ML-II shooter that was in a deer camp with him in 2006 in Texas, and this guy said that TB was still shooting a 10ML-II during that hunt. Go figure.
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Post by Jon on May 24, 2012 14:19:25 GMT -5
1 shot I'm with you on the devel bullets Light accurate and fast. wish they would come out again.
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Post by rossman40 on May 24, 2012 15:38:06 GMT -5
Somebody told me that the last of the Devel bullets Charlie had Dave Skinner at STI ended up with them. But that would have been like 8 years ago.
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Post by edge on May 24, 2012 19:54:45 GMT -5
Was anyone ever arrested for his murder?
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Post by rossman40 on May 25, 2012 22:29:51 GMT -5
Last I heard when I talked to Wayne Novak, like 5 or 6 years ago, it was still a open case. Great penetrator, flew like a laser beam, faster then the speed of heat, but never seemed to get the claimed terminal effects. Charlie blamed it on the sintering company not following his prints. There is a European company that has a similier design somewhat. But the flutes are angled, Supposedly it will drill thru glass and other materials regardless of the impact angle without ricocheting. Just about every SWAT team in Europe uses it.
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Post by cowhunter on May 29, 2012 14:01:37 GMT -5
From an attorney's standpoint, Toby is an unscientific simpleton who fabricates most of his facts. 1. Toby argues that Savage does not make a simple change to its breechplugs because it is afraid it will be admitting a negligent design. There is a legal concept found in all state and federal rules of evidence called the "Post-accident remedial measures". At no time is evidence of a safer design admissible at court. The reason is simple -- the courts don't want to discourage the implementation of safer designs. 2. There are no lawsuits regarding the MLII's design, and for good reason. As to there being no lawsuits, I have access to multiple computer databases all over the country. Unless these lawsuits are in Europe or Canada, saying there are lawsuits is a fabrication. Lawsuits have case numbers and can be tracked by case number or even the names . If some exist, why doesn't toby cite them? 3. There are no lawsuits for good reason. In my youth I was involved on both sides of product liability lawsuits, and they are expensive (like 200,000 in costs expensive). First you have to have a good theory of liability backed up by a real expert. I'm no physicist, but I can't understand how some leaking gas into some threads can cause an explosion. Maybe some blowback eventually, or eventually some ruined threads. Secondly, a lawsuit must have damages that make it financially feasible. You can't collect for what might happen, or for a blown gun, and not even for a bunged up hand. There would need to be death or serious injury, and there are none we know of (or Toby would tell us). Lastly, you would have to prove that you did not double load the gun or put in 120 grains of H-6 (or used smokeless powder for that matter). Anyone fooling with smokeless powder will be shown dozens of warnings by the defense, and asked why they went ahead with an experimental and unproven endeavor. Lawsuits are misunderstood. Remember, you will ultimately be in front of (generally) 12 conservative jurors who hate attorneys. I only sue insurers for bad faith (for cheating people), but even if I still did produce cases, I would never take an MLII case, or any smolkess case. I don't think any other attorneys are dumb enough to do it either.
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Post by rangeball on May 29, 2012 14:17:00 GMT -5
I thought the Devel bullets were the ones with the hole all they way through them, like a bullet ring, with a lexan disc to contain the gas? What are those?
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Post by rossman40 on May 29, 2012 15:22:06 GMT -5
The hollow ones were the ones that were sold by Jada Enterprises. I think the ATF jumped on them. I think they classified them as armor piercing much like the PMC Tubular Hollow Point a few years back. Due to the "cookie cutter" design. It is a big no-no to have or even making armor piercing ammo in a handgun caliber. The problem IIRC was getting the hollow center just the right dimension. You couldn't just make a straight tube or the surface drag inside would slow it down.
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