Scales for weighing powder for SML's

[Deleted]

In the quest for consistency in our SML's, powder, or the exact weight of it in our loads is very important right? Which type/brand of scales are you guys using? On my Cabela's brand electronic scale, if it tells me I'm .3 grains shy of 70 grains, I'll sprinkle a little more powder in, but the scale reading won't move sometimes. I'll remove the powder cup and put it back on the scale and then it will read higher, as it should. Is anyone using a electronic scale that will automatically measure powder weights for you? Had any luck (or bad luck)with them?

[curt]

I'm using a Tanita electronic scale that weighs to .05 gr and always shows an increase w/ as little as two individual bits of powder (H-4198). But once I find it I use my Harrels powder measure and it will throw my 4198 or V-120 quicker and within a .1 gr. If it's good enough for Benchrest it's good enough for ML's.

[muznut]

Earnhart I have that same scale and it does that to I usually just dump it in a 45/70 case then pore in the pan again and dip a little out are you talking about the automatic electronic dispensers?

[dannoboone]

I'm seriously considering this:

www.oldwillknottscales.com/my-weigh-gempro-250.html

Of the reloaders who have used it, all seem very happy with it. A set
of Lee dippers with a trickler would be about as fast as the automatic
electronic scales.

A guy on another board claimed to get weight accuracy less than .1gr,
and that may not be needed, but shows just how accurate they are.

[Deleted]

Mar 17, 2012 17:10:14 GMT -5 muznut said:

Earnhart I have that same scale and it does that to I usually just dump it in a 45/70 case then pore in the pan again and dip a little out are you talking about the automatic electronic dispensers?

Yep, automatic electronic dispensers. Like a DPS or RCBS brand. They say they are accurate to .1 grain. I think my scale is not quite as accurate as some of the others out there.

[Richard]

If you intention is just for loading powder for your muzzle loader? you are wasting your money to get a scale that weights to .00 If you are a serious 600/1,000 yard benchrest shooter that accuracy could be important. The problem with the ML is there are too many other variables that .02 grain is not going to make ONE bit of difference. When I put my loads together I never such weights like 50.5 gr. I will use 50 or 51! Those that think they can see a difference in a load with a 1/2 gr. of powder are just spinning their wheels. A precision CF rifle Yes, a ML definitely not. Guaranteed that if you put together five loads with say 50 gr. of powder and another five of 50.5 gr. and run them over a chronograph, you will not see a difference. You will find your extreme spreads on both overlapping.
Any scale that can measure to .1 gr. will be more than sufficient.
Now that is just my personal opinion.........I am sure there will be some naysayers
Richard

[muznut]

I'm with Richard I use to Measure all my sml loads down to the tenth and then I realized I was wasting my time just get a good measure adjust and crank away. But back to the electronic dispensers I bought the Hornaday and the last row of digits would only show half the number an 8 would be a small 0 and it was slow. I had the Lyman dps3 and that was fast but a little harder to clean out but once you did it the first time it was cake I traded it towards a gun but if I was going to buy another it would be a Lyman

[dannoboone]

OK, guys...point taken. I was thinking of all of my reloading needs
down to 20 caliber which is not for 600/1000yd shooting, but where
tenths can make a big difference in pressures when approaching
maximum loads.

[Deleted]

Mar 17, 2012 20:48:46 GMT -5 Richard said:

If you intention is just for loading powder for your muzzle loader? you are wasting your money to get a scale that weights to .00 If you are a serious 600/1,000 yard benchrest shooter that accuracy could be important. The problem with the ML is there are too many other variables that .02 grain is not going to make ONE bit of difference. When I put my loads together I never such weights like 50.5 gr. I will use 50 or 51! Those that think they can see a difference in a load with a 1/2 gr. of powder are just spinning their wheels. A precision CF rifle Yes, a ML definitely not. Guaranteed that if you put together five loads with say 50 gr. of powder and another five of 50.5 gr. and run them over a chronograph, you will not see a difference. You will find your extreme spreads on both overlapping.
Any scale that can measure to .1 gr. will be more than sufficient.
Now that is just my personal opinion.........I am sure there will be some naysayers
Richard

You're right, I disagree. I'd like to know how many SML shooters weigh their loads to within 1/2 grain of each other. My opinion is why not weigh your loads to the exact weight for every load? OK, so here's the question, how many of you weigh your SML powder load to within 1/2 grain of each other and not exact weights for each powder load? ie. 20 powder loads between 69.75 and 70.25 grains (.5 grain variance) for a 70 grain load, VS. all 20 powder loads at exactly 70 grains.

[deadeye]

not trying to be cute or start a war but yrs ago while attending a 1,000yd 50bmg match,a friend which is one of the top 50(east ) shooters approached me concerning scales & accuracy. he was right as i purchased a decent set of "denver instruments' for cost off him at that time for $250-now approx $ 350. over the years i have pulled many old loads & vials that were stored properly to re-weigh loads that sometimes were stored for years. the loads were all weighed with 3 scales-guess which one was exactly-on all through-out-yep(di).

in relation with mz i sometimes see no difference's breaking down into the "tenth's"or less.

but in a few case's i do with certain loads//example out of 2 pac 45's w 275be load for best accuracy #1-55.46gns/h4198
#2-54.44gns/h4198

don't let this ruffle anyone's feathers -just my finding's. i take a near as i can benchrest approach to mz as i can @ the bench. makes me feel more confident at the short & long game along with precision hunting-just my way!

[cuda]

I am not tring to get feathers fling but. I use a cheap Lee balance beam for all of my powder needs. I have two of them that do just fine. I know to many people that bought electric scales and can not get them to read right. OH the ceiling fan was blowing on it or the battery is low or it just would not set to zero. I have not had any problem like that with mine. And I feel that I can count on them for being right.

[ozark]

When I weighed powder for the SML I used both the electronic and the lee beam scales. I attempted to be precise and always as accurate as possible. Being that particular may or may not have been of help, but should something go wrong I was sure it wasn't powder weight that caused it. I didn't want to be careless in any of the several phases of loading. Get careless in one area could lead to being so in other areas. Does it make a difference? Probably not plus a few granuals of powder but if it puts a question in your mind, that alone can be a problem. JMHO.

[Richard]

I will be stubborn on this point..............and believe me, I use my RCBS chargemaster and then transfer the load to the pan of my RCBS 10-10 beam scale which I have tweaked and trickle to the kernel....................FOR MY LONG RANGE CF LOADS. There is not anyway in @$%^ll that you are going to tell the difference in 55.46 and 55. 48 or anything near a tenth or two of a grain. Period.
And Earnhardt...........? No one mentioned 1/2 a grain. We are talking scales that measure to a TENTH of a grain. With most of the powder I use..............(4750 and 5744 would be an exception), my Harrell's powder measure will measure to a tenth of a grain and that is all I use...................Maybe, Maybe.........if there was some type of formal registered ML competition, I might then use the Chargemaster. How many times have you put a bullet and/or bullet with sabot down your bore and found the pressure felt different? That alone will cause a difference in velocity. As your barrel fouls with successive shots your loading pressure can change and cause differences in velocity and you are going to worry about measuring to under a couple of tenths?
If you want to see just how equal your loads are measuring to a tenth of grain, load up ten with the same bullet and or sabot and prep you barrel the same way for each shot and tell me your chronograph is reading the same velocity each shot or even that your extreme spread is under 10 to 20 fps?
I guess if it makes you happy sitting around trickling powder, have at it
Richard

[ozark]

Trickling powder doesn't make me happy but the confidence of knowing that the charge is as near perfect and consistent as I can makes me confident. I am satisfied you are correct in saying that a grain or half grain will not make a difference. I don't argue that point. My point is that being as accurate as I can be makes me happy. I have several people tell me they will load my ammo and save me money. I just passed my 84th and yet have all my fingers toes and limbs. Can't hear well at all and being to tough to wear hearing protection while shooting the ought six daily for many years is the cause. I am not saying the practice is dangerous just admitting to being overly cautious. Ben

[deadeye]

have you put a bullet and/or bullet with sabot down your bore and found the pressure felt different? That alone will cause a difference in velocity. As your barrel fouls with successive shots your loading pressure can change and cause differences in velocity and you are going to worry about measuring to under a couple of tenths?
If you want to see just how equal your loads are measuring to a tenth of grain, load up ten with the same bullet and or sabot and prep you barrel the.

i have done both these test many times. in my example it probably works much better with this low pressure load which is not changing vent orfice diameter much. i know from 55.46 to 55.48 there probably will not be measurable results if any, howevever staying with this load for a long time i can tell you ime groups have shrunk by approx .2-.3 in size with an approx 1/2 grn adjustment in from a whole # powder increment.

there are reason's imo the loading pressure are not consistent such as powder burning inefficency aka inconsistent fouling which will contribute to the loading feel/stubbornly! ;D

[Jon]

Another dumb question but anyway here goes People talk about fouling in a mz. Don't c/f's foul also?

[deadeye]

jon- in cf's yes they do foul- i do not know of anyone that cleans cf's barrel's between shots for maximum accuracy with success. & yes i have tried that experiment with failure.

[Jon]

Deadeye. Thank you for the answer I'm on the learning curve I hope I'm plugging along. I really appreciate all the help from you and other more knowledgeable people than my self. I'm sure a lot of my questions seem silly but not knowing the answer I have to ask.

[Deleted]

Mar 17, 2012 20:48:46 GMT -5 Richard said:

If you intention is just for loading powder for your muzzle loader? you are wasting your money to get a scale that weights to .00 If you are a serious 600/1,000 yard benchrest shooter that accuracy could be important. The problem with the ML is there are too many other variables that .02 grain is not going to make ONE bit of difference. When I put my loads together I never such weights like 50.5 gr. I will use 50 or 51! Those that think they can see a difference in a load with a 1/2 gr. of powder are just spinning their wheels. A precision CF rifle Yes, a ML definitely not. Guaranteed that if you put together five loads with say 50 gr. of powder and another five of 50.5 gr. and run them over a chronograph, you will not see a difference. You will find your extreme spreads on both overlapping.
Any scale that can measure to .1 gr. will be more than sufficient.
Now that is just my personal opinion.........I am sure there will be some naysayers
Richard

Richard, I'm not trying to start a peeing match with you. You used the example of 50 grains VS. 50.5 grains. that's what I talking about. I'll be the first to admit, you've probably forgot more about guns and SML muzzleloaders than I've ever known. I'm just saying that I'd just assume that all of my powder loads are exactly the same, so there's one less variable to contend with when shooting my SML. I didn't mean to torque anyone the wrong way here fellas. Sorry, I apologize.

[cuda]

Everyone is always looking for that little edge to get the most out of their gun. But in the end all of the guns shoot different. So what shoots in Edge's gun may not shoot worth a dam in Richard's gun. So what you need to do is pick the best shooting powder for your gun. And 1. learn to shoot the way that powder shoots with one given load and your bullet sabot setup or. 2. Tweak the powder and bullet and sabot till you find the one you can live with. Then learn to shoot it the best you can. You will find in the long run the biggest problem is shooter error than any of the loads. I hope I did not hurt anyones feelings just what I have learned.

[ET]

My findings are the same as Deadeye’s concerning the difference of a ½-grain using faster burning powders. Yes fouling, barrel heat, load resistance and vent wear also play a role in this.

My simple reasoning here is if you find the center of the “sweet spot” and happen to slightly drift off of it you will still produce the best groups and accuracy possible.


Ed

[wilmsmeyer]

Not one thing wrong with getting the charge exactly right, IMO.

As others have said, there are many variables that cause each shot to be a little difference. Vent size, loading pressure, fouling, primer consistency. Heck, a bullet may weigh a grain more or less then the last one right?

Nothing wrong with trying to at least get one variable perfect. If you can get others perfect like sorting bullets by weight and outside dimension...great.

But from Richards perspective and also MINE, a 1/2 grain will not make a hill of beans difference inside 200 yds in terms of killing a deer.

I personally applaud anyone trying to make every variable the same. As Ozark said, if you have a problem, you may be able to find it faster if the variables are fewer.

[muznut]

Don't get me wrong I keep it within three tenths I know my measure once I have it set up it will keep extruded to that. And for guys worrying about a few tenths they better clean their barrel of all unburned granules after every shot.

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2012 8:30:50 GMT -5 muznut said:

Don't get me wrong I keep it within three tenths I know my measure once I have it set up it will keep extruded to that. And for guys worrying about a few tenths they better clean their barrel of all unburned granules after every shot.

When use N110 as a booster powder my barrel is clean as a whistle after every shot. ;D

[Richard]

Look, I get anal about my CF benchrest loads having everything the same as this is registered competition and .001" difference in group size can mean coming in first or second. I just do not feel that with all the variables in muzzle loading that I am going to worry about a tenth of a grain one way or the other, thats all. My measure throws very consistent charges and with all the vial I load each week I don't have the time to trickle each one. For those that only fire 50 or 75 shots in an entire year (including their hunting loads) than it is no big deal. When it gets to 1/2 a grain (thats five tenths) you might see a slight difference but a tenth...................... Here again, this is an opinion, which we are all entitled to.
Richard

[Jon]

Any one have any personal experiance with the gem-pro 250? Thank you

[Dave W]

Couple interesting reads IMO.
www.6mmbr.com/powderdispensers01.html
www.6mmbr.com/prometheus.html
Personally, I trickle all my loads and try to be exact as possible, and I prefer a balance beam scale to the electronics. Then again, my electronic is not a DI. ;D I also use scale weight checks to zero the scale before weighing.

JME some loads have showed a large difference when changing the charge by .5gr, most however change drastically with a full grain or more powder charge change.

[muznut]

I never tried the RCBS electronic dispensers but the Lyman DPS3 is allot faster than the DPS2 that 6mmbr tested.

[dannoboone]

Mar 19, 2012 18:39:47 GMT -5 Jon said:

Any one have any personal experiance with the gem-pro 250? Thank you

Soon. ;D

Ya know....after all this discussion, it appears everyone is going to keep on
doing just what they are doing. There have been some pretty darned good
groups on the smokeless board from guys doing it their own way. I'm one
of those who likes to eliminate every variable possible, but I'm not going
to argue with Richard's results, either.

[edwardamason]

Scales are a excellent tool in developing loads. If I were were pushing the upper limits of a load I would most certainly measure each and every grain by weight. However measuring by weight is not as exact of a science as some believe.

Don't take my word for it. Do a Internet search on bench rest competition shooting and volume measuring and you will probably find that the shooters at the top in their field use some form of volume measuring for the most accurate loads.

There have been some really good threads on here in the past 6 months that discuss the topic at length.

Good luck sir.