shotgun slugs

[mshm99]

I'm taking a run at reloading shotgun slugs. I going to use the Sabot Technologies Inc. roll crimping system. (www.slugsrus.com). You can buy their sabots very reasonably, and load a good .50 cal. bullet for considerably less than you can buy those premium rounds that may not shoot all that well in your rifled barrel.

My question is about powder. Is there a reason why no one loads extruded powder in shot shells? Seems all the recommended loads are ball or flake.

They are recommending IMR 4756 or Blue Dot. I've got several powders on the shelf at or around that burn rate that are extruded. Also some LIL Gun.

Any thoughts?

Mike

[mike3132]

Lil Gun was designed for the .410 shotgun. Shotguns need faster powders to get the loads up and moving since the standard for pressure is set at 12K PSI. Some of the newer slugs are using duplex to achieve faster velocities and keep pressure with in limits. Mike

[7mmfreak]

There are some slugs out there that can use other powders; Lil'Gun, Longshot, STEEL, IMR 4759, IMR 4227, Re17, N110. These are with full bore solids two and one half times the weight of a .500" pistol bullet. To use the slow powders you need the heavy slugs and a heavy barrel wall all the way to the muzzle.

I like IMR 4759 and 4227 for the heavies. The shotgun powders have too much recoil impulse and way too much flash.

[slugger]

800X
800X is what I've found to be my favorite BUT with that said I wish you luck. I've tried for years to do slugs and NEVER get the performance of the factory shells. Don't know why. Tried it all too man .. Good luck and PLEASE keep us informed I'd love to find a way !!!!

[mshm99]

The STI system seems like it ought to work. The sabot measures out .725".Their bare sabots cost 35 cents. Hornady makes a 500 grain .50 XTP for around a buck. I have never found an XTP that was not accurate. I don't really care about blazing speed,just reasonable accuracy. I have tried some factory stuff and the only thing that ever shot good enough was the Silver Winchester BRI clones. They used to be reasonably priced but now the suckers are two bucks a piece. It just costs soo darn much to find out something does not shoot worth a hoot. I hear my ML10 getting angry at my contemplation of infidelity.(Yes, it talks to me) There are times in the late season when you got a pocket full of tags , the deer are bunched up and you need more than one shot.

I'll file a progress report. I bought some of their ounce and a eighth cast /sabot combo to see if the potential is there. I'll buy the recommended IMR 4756 to start.

mike

[7mmfreak]

I've asked around a lot about bullets in the SPW. Actually have a short thread on it here. In general I have not been impressed with what guys have gotten from them using pistol bullets.

www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=118&t=261929

I had originally pursued the idea because my gun will shoot Lightfield Hybrid EXP and Remington Buckhammers (both non-discarding like the SPW) into 1.5MOA consistently. I decided to go with full bore slugs.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[mshm99]

Thanks Freak!!!!! Man its going to take me a while to digest the tons of info on that link.We all need something to frustrate us and give us a reason to go shooting.

mike

[7mmfreak]

If you are interested I have codified my slug project conversations into a multi page document so I can read them when I need to reference something. It mostly covers full bore solids since I believe they are where it's at when it comes to accuracy and ballistic performance but there is information you could apply to loading slug rounds in general as well.

Edit: I just checked and it is 38 pages so it will have to be an e-mail attachment.

[mshm99]

Thanks Freak, Sending PM

mike

[7mmfreak]

Mike,
You have mail

[mshm99]

I've just started to work on the sabot technologies system. I called the help line (814-839-9334)and talked to Rick(forgive me if I got the name wrong).

He told me since roll crimping would be more uniform(read accuracy) with a drill press I had to figure out how to get my cheesey drill press to turn 200-300 rpms. It turned 760 at the lowest. Being the tight wad first and foremost , ebay just was not much help with out spending much more than I cared to. I had already sunk enough into this project with out having any assurance I was going achieve anything usable. Everthing I read so far was wishing me good luck and warnings that this was going to be a expensive lesson. Fools rush in....... So here is what I came up with for the first hurdle:


I was advised to cut some old hulls off square and practice the roll crimping function. So I Did



So I loaded my first rounds with 41 grains IMR 4756 and headed out behind the house to my range.



I had pulled one of my Luepolds off a rifle and sighted it in with a laser bore sighter,which worked suprisingly well. I fired a couple of the Winchester sabots , at 50 yards, and was good enough to move out to a 100 yards. Results :The target on the left was the Winchester sabots, Right the SPW loadas the .




Today I used a dial indicator to true up my drill press within reason,and loaded 2 more round at 43 grains IMR4756 and got the following



I'm already at minute of deer and this group was at 2.5". My hunting load was the Winchester Sabot . It has been a consistant 2" grouper.

Rick tells me that some folks he calls those Guys from Ohio are claiming very good accuracy with Thompson Center bullet #7785 and 36.5 grains of Herco.



I'm going to give Herco and that #7785 a try and let you know.
I did not feel like dragging out the Chrony.I will in the future. The Winchester chrony bashing split sabots claim 1400 fps and I take them at their word.

I don't believe my weapon is capable of the accuracy of the custom made weapons out there. If I can get 2" groups I'll be happy. I'm a deer hunter. That means any deer. Little ones,big ones. They are just so tasty!

[7mmfreak]

Nicely done. Keep me posted on how the SPW works out. I wanted to try them because my gun shot other non-discarding sabots so well.

[mike3132]

Some of you guys amaze me with your inventions. Mike

[mshm99]

I forgot to mention, Rick said that jacketed bullets probably won't work real well because they won't grip the sabot and impart rotation. After you charge the hull,you just push the sabot into the hull with your fingers. It's that loose. The crimp provides the compression, which is why it is so critical. Anyway, after I pushed the sabot/bullet into the hull I took it to the MEC Jr and put 60 pounds on it. It made me feel better, even though I probably just settled the powder. I'm going to make a fixture to hold the STI Roll Crimping Station plumb and true on the press.

I think there is some potential here. I don't have a large enough sample to draw any firm conclusions, but so far I'm seeing a vertical string. Next bring out the chrony. Smooth out those velocities and we might be on to something

Mike

[mike3132]

Mar 5, 2012 21:44:52 GMT -5 mshm99 said:

I forgot to mention, Rick said that jacketed bullets probably won't work real well because they won't grip the sabot and impart rotation. After you charge the hull,you just push the sabot into the hull with your fingers. It's that loose. The crimp provides the compression, which is why it is so critical. Anyway, after I pushed the sabot/bullet into the hull I took it to the MEC Jr and put 60 pounds on it. It made me feel better, even though I probably just settled the powder. I'm going to make a fixture to hold the STI Roll Crimping Station plumb and true on the press.

I think there is some potential here. I don't have a large enough sample to draw any firm conclusions, but so far I'm seeing a vertical string. Next bring out the chrony. Smooth out those velocities and we might be on to something

Mike

Do you think knurling the bullets would help? Or maybe a paper patch to tighten the bullets up in the sabot? Mike

[7mmfreak]

I have tried compressing my rounds in the hulls then crimping too but still get vertical stringing as well. Have you tried Stephens "sustained high compression" method or whatever he called it in the document I sent you? I haven't yet but wonder if it gives a more uniform compression and a resulting spring back of wad against roll crimp. I need to get a ball bearing and give it a shot.

[mshm99]

You guys have given me a couple more things to try. I'm going to try going down the powder trail. Herco is an old line low pressure powder which might be the answer. Ive got the T/C maxi hunters ordered from Cabellas and found one pound of HERCO locally.

Since the sabot stays with the round to the target, and the relatively low velocities, I wonder if big soft lead is not the better choice. The BC has to be awful. I've always considered this a 125 yd max round.

Thanks for the input. Now if my wife will let me quit my job, I can work on something really important.

Mike

[mshm99]

I looked at the STI roll crimper and it looks like"sustained high compression" method would be a snap. The plastic casting of their roll crimper is made to center up on their 1 1/8 oz slug. I'll try take a pic of it and post. The right washers look to be the ticket for that.

I have to remember what I preach to the young turks: Change one thing at a time. See if its better or worse.

Mike

[mshm99]

I just read what Mike wrote again considering what the T/C maxi's cost , for just a few bucks more I could get into hornady's. I've been a paper patcher and a caster from way back. The T/C's are cast,which makes me leary.Some of the T/C's I inspected ,I would have culled. The only all lead bullets that I have found to be totally consistant are swedged. So maybe I'll go down that hornady road.
I reloaded some today. Swithed to Federal 209A primers to light the fire. Went to a QDMA seminar today so maybe the range tomorrow.

Mike

[mshm99]

I knocked the primers out of the new hulls and went with Federal 209A's. I have a bunch that I use in my Savage ML. I figure that lighting the fire is key to uniform pressures, velocity. I set up the Chrony at 8 feet from the muzzle. I just don't believe the numbers I was getting. Probably reading the gas stream. I'll set it out further next time.

I loaded 36.5 grains Herco and the T/C 350 grain maxi hunter.



I bumped the IMR 4756,SPW 1 1/8 ounce load to 44 grains . I loaded a starter load of 32 grains Herco with a SPW 1 1/8 ounce.



The maxi hunter load was quite tame, recoil wise. Although accuracy was nothing to write home about. The starter Herco was pretty pleasant also. The IMR load was noticably the higher recoiler. I believe I pulled the second IMR shot a bit left. Many of us already know shooting bench groups with heavy recoiling weapons is an aquired skill. Thankfully recoil does not bother me.

There were no noticeable pressure signs.


The IMR and the Herco starter load are good enough for me. The SPW slug seems like it will win the under a dollar mark. Loading a 500 grain Hornady XTP will cost around $1.65. The T/C 350 grain comes in at $1.60.

I'm going to do the IMR 4756 SPW loads again. I'll bump the Herco charges up. The T/C loads need to perform a whole lot better to make the cut. A friend has a really sweet Browning A Bolt that is a deer snipers dream. What ever I come up with in the end ,will be fired in that A Bolt for the final word.

Stay tuned.

Mike