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Post by hunter on Jan 17, 2009 8:44:50 GMT -5
This was my first season with the ML-ll. I used the remington .458 300 gr. H.P. this year at 23-2400 fps.
At close range, inside 50 yards, they seam to expand rapidly.
How does the hornady .458 300 gr. compare with the remingtons? The H.P. is not as deep in the hornady's, in my observation and I was curious if they would have any better B.C. and would they hold together any better, penetrate better?
Thanks for any input!!
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 17, 2009 9:14:10 GMT -5
Having not shot either, I will go out on a limb and say expect similar performance. Also assuming you are after deer only.
Each have a relatively thin jacket for high velocity. Each will be so close in BC that you will not notice the difference at any practical range. Each has enough mass for shots on deer...even at a higher speed. Each will frag pretty good on close shots yet penetrate enough to succeed while "failing".
If you are looking for better penetration and less blown up meat I would seek a tougher bullet. At these speeds look at XTP mags, coppers, BO's or Nosler PT's. May even look at hardened casts from LBT. Some claim expansion is needed and most at least desire some. However, a big 1/2 inch hole all the way through is a big hole. Big holes in the right places have a big success rate.
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 17, 2009 9:18:25 GMT -5
If you are looking for penetration, go to the Barnes X bullet 300gr. With 70grs of H4198, Its a superb bullet, not only for penetration, but it will retain all its weight. For deer size animals, 65grs would be good.
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Post by mike.dawson on Jan 17, 2009 12:53:21 GMT -5
Bigmoose, what is the Barnes bullet number for that X bullet, and would 58 Gr. of N120 be sufficient to cause petal opening at 175-200 yards?
Mike
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 17, 2009 16:03:17 GMT -5
Mike.dawson,
Barnes discontinued it, I was lucky, with the help of board member, I was able to buy 500 plus 300 & 350 grainers, from cheaper than dirt and lock stock and barrel
They did replace it with another bullet.
At my age, I would say a have enough, for all future hunts for Moose and Brownie's
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 17, 2009 16:08:16 GMT -5
I just went to Barnes web site, the new bullets is TSX, # for the 300gr 45814
good luck
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Post by hunter on Jan 18, 2009 7:39:01 GMT -5
Can I buy these bulk at a good price anywhere, or are they $1.00+ a piece?
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 18, 2009 8:30:20 GMT -5
Far as I can tell, 20 at a time for $1+ apeice.
Some who shoot a lot and do not wish to pay so much do this: Work up a hunting load with the bullet they would like to hit an animal with and then shelf it till hunting season. Then play all year with more economical bullets that have exterior ballistics similar to the hunting slug.
Chances are that you will be able to shoot more then one bullet very well.
My huge supply of "economically" purchased Barnes 250 and 290 TMZ's are almost gone. This past year found me hunting with 300 gr XTP's at 2500 fps or so. I hair tested it on 5 deer from 20-90 yds. 4 were heart shot. 3 were shot at angles so bones were encountered. Bang-flop. 1 was shot perfectly broadside...no bones...60-70 yds death run...right towards me! The buck was spine-lung shot and died in mid-air.
There were signs of massive damage and fragmenting in every instance. Especially the buck. While the bullet entered high behind the shoulder and angled forward, a peice of jacket was found in a rear ham! Embedded in meat with a small fresh wound channel. Don't ask me how that happened. This bullet and the ones you mentioned will be fine for "killing" a deer IMO. The downfall will be saving meat up front if that is important to you.
As for next year, I will probably be using something else...not sure yet. The TMZ's were awesome in all areas and got ALOT of hair testing at very high speeds. No bullet recoveries (good) and many deer recoveries (also good). Can always fall back on them.
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 18, 2009 8:43:09 GMT -5
After reading Wilmsmeyer post, maybe the X bullet, should not be your first chiose for deer,
it just may be too tough, and give very little expansion.
I have yet to shoot a White Tail with my Savage, and am not likely to. Although I enjoy hunting them and hogs, in South Florida. Truth is I like being in the woods, carrying a rifle any rifle.
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Post by chapmangleason on Jan 18, 2009 15:03:53 GMT -5
If you are looking for penetration, go to the Barnes X bullet 300gr. With 70grs of H4198, Its a superb bullet, not only for penetration, but it will retain all its weight. For deer size animals, 65grs would be good. Agreed. The Barnes TSX Flatnose 45/70 bullet (part no 45843)with a Black Crushed rib sabot shot beautiful in my Savage wth 44g of 5744. The Flat Nose is a misname, because it is a HUGE hollow point bigger than the Barnes MZ. I believe they were called FN so they could be easily loaded in the 45/70, they do retain 100% of weight and the little slits on the inside of the hollow point would make it expand very quickly, even at low velocity. I believe this is the pefect bullet for less that 150 yard hunting. Another benefit, they are only $17 for 20 at MidSouth, so they are cheaper than the MZs or the Barnes Origonal. If you need long distrance, the BO is better, with a BC of .291. Chap |
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Post by chapmangleason on Jan 18, 2009 15:12:43 GMT -5
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orion
8 Pointer
Posts: 128
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Post by orion on Jan 19, 2009 10:52:50 GMT -5
Hello,
I shot two deer with the hornady .458 hollow point this year.
One good size doe about 145 field dressed and a good buck about 190 lbs. dressed. My load was 63 grains of Rel 7 and the black crushed rib. I get about 2200 fps in my gun.
The doe was shot from close from a high tree stand at about 25 yards down through the lungs into the off shoulder. The bullet did not exit, I found it just under the hide, fully expanded and in two pieces (jacket and lead). The doe went down and struggled to get up. I shot it again with a 45-70 contender pistol with the same bullet started a 1800 fps. This bullet hit in the lungs and ranged foward and out,-non recovered.
The buck I shot from 110 yards center slightly high on the shoulder. Buck went down, did not die, kept struggling to get up. Proceeded to shoot that deer again with the contender also.
The first bullet went through and broke both shoulder/leg bones as the shot angled down from a high tree stand. Again I found the bullet just under the hide on the far side, mushroomed in one piece. The second bullet I shot as the deer flopped and struggled from about 30 yards and it angled from the diaphram out foward through the neck, again not recovered. This was a sad moment for me to see such a grand animal struggling like that.
This bullet is very accurate in my gun and provided good to great performance for me. However, at these ranges the Barnes 300 grain MZ expander seems to hit harder, at least in my limited experiance, when started at the same velocity.
Some say this is perfect performance. I believe at slower velocities (i.e. longer ranges you will see pass throughs as demononstrated by the pistol hits), but the bullets did significant damage along the way also.
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Post by jeremylong on Jan 19, 2009 11:21:11 GMT -5
orion - I agree in 50 cal sav- from everything I have seen so far, for shots 200 yards and less there is no better terminally performing bullet than the 300grain barnes MZ Expander. IMHO
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Post by tar12 on Jan 19, 2009 11:32:36 GMT -5
Orion,
Hair,hide and bone testing is where its at.You can shoot all of the paper/magazine,oak blocks,ect. you want.IMO,it is only a small indication as to how a bullet willl perform on game.As you discovered these bullets probally should be held to 18-1900 fps.From what I am hearing these bullets fall into the 300 grn XTP category.I assumed wrongly that since they are rifle bullets designed for the 45-70 that they would hold up better than this.Thats why there is no substitute for real hide testing.I ordered a 100 blems from Midway for cold weather testing of subject powders.Testing will be the only role they take on.
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Post by DBinNY on Jan 19, 2009 13:13:27 GMT -5
I have shot a pile of woodchucks with the 300 gr. Remingtons and XTPs. I have only shot 1 deer with the XTP with 63 gr of R7 (this is a brutally accurate load in my rifle) with terminal performace similar to what Orion stated for the .458 Hornady (smacked bone and stopped under the hide on the off side). I have not shot the .458 Hornadys. For woodchucks, the XTPs were with 44 gr of 5744 (relatively slow) and the Remingtons were with 63 gr of R7 (relatively faster). FWIW I couldn't tell any difference in the terminal performance. Both proved immediately terminal in all cases. While I realize most of you are not tuning your loads for woodchucks, they do offer some resistance if you can get a good sized one lined up stem to stern. I would not hesistate to use either on deer.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 19, 2009 19:26:42 GMT -5
Not many talk about killing woodchucks. So when DB talks listen and Recall all my woodchuck memories. I will spare the details, but I was almost KILLED by a woodchuck as a young teenager.
Since then I have been on a mission. Kill everyone I can with whatever I have on hand. I have killed them with the following:
.410 birdshot, .444 Marlin, 30-06, .22 hornet, .222 Rem mag, .223. .22 LR, .17 HMR, 12 guage slug, Knight ML, Savage ML, ,357 mag pistol, .22 pistol, Rock, Bow & arrow, home made bomb, car, truck, coke bottle, and other implements. I'm not kidding!
Keep the stem to stern woodchucks coming. Make 'em pay. They are an awesome ballistic medium. Can't wait till April when the survivors begin appearing.
P.S. Oooops, how could I have forgotten the .243 and the 22-250 and my friends 35 rem.? 100's
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Post by submoa on Jan 19, 2009 20:10:23 GMT -5
Too funny. The only good woodchuck is a dead woodchuck.
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Post by DBinNY on Jan 19, 2009 22:49:30 GMT -5
Wilms, someday you'll have to share that harrowing experience that you had in your youth with the woodchuck. I've also shot them with 250 gr XTPs and SSTs with the Savage but feel far more comfortable with the 300gr bullets when hunting such dangerous game (especially when I only have one shot). I've also taken them with everything from a crow bar to the .375 H&H. Pound for pound, they are as tough as at gets and I don't want to be under powered.
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Post by petev on Jan 20, 2009 0:22:28 GMT -5
This was my first season with the ML-ll. I used the remington .458 300 gr. H.P. this year at 23-2400 fps. At close range, inside 50 yards, they seam to expand rapidly. I guess I'm confused, I thought within 50 yards thats what you wanted. I shoot .458 Hornadays, but havent taken a deer with it yet, and thought it and the Rem were proven, was I wrong? |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 20, 2009 3:00:54 GMT -5
Bicycle, open road, going very fast downhill.....Question: Why did the woodchuck cross the road? Answer: To flip Wilmsmeyer off his bike and make him cartwheel down the road. Woodchuck survived..I almost bought the farm he lived on. Being young, light and nimble...AND LUCKY....I only lost a bunch of skin, a little blood and smashed up my 10 speed. That SOB! I was already an up-and-comer in the woodchuck killing fields and I'm sure that this one was sent to take me down.
The Tundra's tires work so much better!
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Post by youp50 on Jan 20, 2009 4:49:59 GMT -5
Beware the woodchuck's revenge!!!
Some years ago I had a gas station. Full serve , check the oil, and wash the windows. Repaired lots of tires. A regular customer came in and stated he had a slow leak in the rear tire. This is rather common as your front tire flips up objects and some times they end up sharp end up for the rear tire. "Just put a plug in it as I will get new tires before winter" was the order. I couldn't get the object out, kept breaking off. I broke the tire down and thought he had a piece of hard nylon in it. I was finally able to grasp the object, it was a woodchuck tooth. My advice is body shots only with your Tundra.
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Post by jkruger on Jan 20, 2009 5:41:38 GMT -5
has anyone tried the trusty shovel. fantastc terminal performance.the penetration isnt the best, but at 5.6fps there is all kinds of mushrooming. worked like a charm for me on a ruoge woodchuck once.
jk
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 20, 2009 6:10:05 GMT -5
It wouldn't bother me one bit to have a "woodchuck" forum...or an "unprotected game" forum. I have subjected way more death blows to them then deer. As DB said so well....they are a GREAT test medium for any gun..big or small. Or a shovel. ;D
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 20, 2009 7:27:45 GMT -5
How do we go from Big Game hunting to killing small animals with a shoval. Pested they are, so are rats, are we going to have a section, devoted to ways of killing them. Do it by all means, but, write about in your diary, not on a hunting forum.
This is the reason I declined, being a moderator, I didn't to tell folks, what to do, or express my opinion on behavior. Here I am doing it.
Lets keep this site about Savage Muzzleloders and Hunting, leave the shovels to the hareware store....thats my opinion.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 20, 2009 10:28:32 GMT -5
Sorry Bigmoose. You are right. Threads can take paths not meant by the post title. My bad.
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Post by tar12 on Jan 20, 2009 10:40:45 GMT -5
Whats wrong with a little humor once in a while? nada....
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Post by jkruger on Jan 20, 2009 12:01:10 GMT -5
forgive me.
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 20, 2009 13:08:50 GMT -5
Wilsmeyer,
Unless its arms and legs it don't count.
On secound thought, maybe you should have a marksmenship award, for shovel work, sometimes, I take myself too seriously, but doesn't last long, my wife reminds me who I am. [smile]
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Post by mike.dawson on Jan 20, 2009 13:11:03 GMT -5
Both Bigmoose and I live in Fl. we don't have woodchucks her we have the 9 banded armadillo down here. I have sent many to the happy hunting ground with just about every implement at my disposal including my lab. Now in south Florida and the keys they have 6 ft. long iguanas, just let It out they are tasty and the people down there kill them.
Now when I was growing up in Ohio, I used to make a fair share of my summer spending money by charging farmers 50 cents per woodchuck. They sure do eat a lot of beans. One day a friend of mine and I decided to try and eat one of them. NOT TASTY!
Mike
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 20, 2009 13:31:43 GMT -5
My wife to me Quote " your just a jerk, that got lucky" ain't love grand
Mike, maybe you can explain to me, how a non-native species get be protected [iguanas]
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