Is There a Pattern or Trend Appearing

[ET]

First off I’m not looking to create segregation but sense a trend is occurring.
On the Savage/Smokeless Board the vast majority of postings revolve around the 45Cal aftermarket muzzle-loaders.
Nothing wrong with that but I have to wonder what happened to all the other 50 Cal smokeless owners?
Is everyone changing to 45Cal and 45 builds and if not why aren’t the other owners posting more often?
Is there a form of intimation occurring that if you are not part of the 45 crowd with the latest developments making them feel like outsiders or intruders?

Might it be possible that a separate board may now be needed to encourage more participation for original Savage or 50Cal smokeless?
All I’m asking is for this Board to look at this and consider say even a Sub-Board more specific for 50Cal smokeless owners. This may stimulate more participation because of a sense of “I belong here”.
Again I’m not pushing for segregation but wonder if this approach may be more beneficial. I will respect what the Board deems appropriate but felt this current situation might need to be reviewed.


Ed

[ozark]

ET, I hadn't thought of clicks being formes. I believe that if you order a Savage MLII it will come as a .50 caliber. I think, and proved to myself that it was a good hunting ML without a bucket full of modifications. But members here love to tinker and change from the original. This has resulted in a lot of barrel changes to 40s and 45s. So we have the MLIIs and the modified rifles. Maybe there should be a seperate board but I don't think anyone feels less than equal regardless of whether they have modified their rifles or haven't. Probably those who have remained with the originals are happy with what they have and lack that urge to tinker. I shot my .50 and deer fell and I don't believe it gets better than that. People that have their originals tuned in are sharpening their knifes knowing they will need it. Ozark

[ET]

Ozark

It’s not about clicks being formed but the environment of equipment familiarity and the comfort derived from it.
A simple analogy would be I’m into boating and let’s assign 2-classes such as power boats and sail boats. Let’s say I enjoy boating but my preference is sail boats, where do you think I would be more responsive and socially active in discussions?


Ed

[wilmsmeyer]

I get the point of your analogy Ed. I would modify it though to 2 stroke verses 4 stroke engines. Motors & sails are way to far apart.

I believe that the vast majority of .50 cal shooters that have interest fall into 2 catagories:

1) Not that social, but very intrigued. They come here not wanting to belly up to the bar and talk to the guy next to them. They hang out by themselves and observe. Here, the archives have everything you need to research loads and previous conversations

2) (I'll put myself in this one) Someone who has been there, and done that 1000's times and is all set. Not much left to tinker with or accomplish and no plans to get a barrel and re-tool. I enjoy watching the torch get passed to the other calibers and reading what's going on...everyday. When .50 stuff pops up and I can shed light on an issue I do. Like Ozark said, there are other things we are doing like putting up stands, bow hunting and sharpening knives

I have also noticed that many of the other forums are being visited more by familiar names that also used to post a lot on the Savage Smokeless forum. That's good....they haven't just left. I can't quantify this, but that's my perception from trolling thru the forums each day.

I kind of like it the way it is but that's only my opinion

[ET]

Wilmsmeyer

Thanks for your honest reply and yes your refinement of an analogy is much better than mine was.
You’ve made some good points I didn’t take into consideration.
Thanks for listening to what I had to express and gentlemen thanks for responding in the fashion that shows what this Board possess for leadership.



Ed

[stubblejumper]

ET

I would also fall into the 2nd catagory above. I have a 50 cal that I am quite satisfied with thanks to the members of this board and I have neither the time, energy or resources to tinker with a 45 etc.

That said, I check in every day here and read all I can about what others are doing no matter what the caliber. Maybe someday down the road..?

[dannoboone]

Ed, even though I do not comment on them, I enjoy your posts, and
am sorry that you get the feeling that the Smokeless Board has
become "clickish". People respond to matters which are exciting
to them. Many of us got so-so results with the factory .50 barrel.
Mine was one of those rough as a corn cob, took forever to clean
out the plastic, and accuracy was only attained after a dozen
"fouling" shots. Then it was good for about three dozen shots
before the plastic built up, killing accuracy. Add to that I'm a bit
recoil sensitive (big "hats off" to wilmsmeyer!) and the PN .45
became a god send. All things ".45 & .40" just interest me more,
and I can no longer give much input to the .50, other than past
experiences once in a while to some of the "newbies". But in no
way does anyone that I know of wish to have a "click" on the
Smokeless Board. My apologies to anyone who feels they are
getting snubbed.

[ET]

Gentlemen your replies are appreciated.

But I would like to reaffirm that I’m not expressing anything related to “Clicks or Snubbing”.
Yes at one time there was some animosity when others began flaunting their calibers as being better but that’s now gone and replaced with respect towards one another.

The smokeless board is now dominantly occupied with the 45Cal and I myself don’t have a real problem with that as I too enjoy following what is happening with the 45. It is a new phase of muzzle loading rapidly maturing. But in the process of the 45 maturing it seems the 50Cal is sort of being phased down by lack of threads seen. My question here is, “Why is that?”

I know myself with the dominancy of the 45 there are times I feel a little out of place when posting something directly related to the 50. It sort of feels like I’m interrupting the flow.
I’m not saying I will stop posting but just that I’m feeling sort of out of place at times. If I feel this at times I now have to consider what others might be feeling and how it affects their response to participating with posting. Maybe it’s just me.

I have no intention of stopping posting anything I have to share but in a way I would like to see the atmosphere at times with more 50 responsiveness displayed.

It looks like the change has to start with me accepting what is as is.


Ed

[Deleted]

I think the board being predominately .45 is just what it is. When I first showed up there just a few shooting .45's. Although their posts were interesting to read I was stuck on my new .50 Savage and making it a good shooter. I feel fortunate to have gotten a good one out of the box and to have gotten a lot of help from the oldtimers that had been shooting the .50's for years before I came along [could never name them all but a special thanks to Tar and Rifleman]. In those days I made a stand in defense of the .50 against the newer and great shooting .45's that were showing up....vowing to never make the change over. Then I got a wild haired idea and cut off 3" of my excellent shooting .50 barrel and ended up ruining it for long range accuracy. It went from shooting 2" at 200yds to shooting 5" at 200yds. That's when I made the changeover from .50 to .45. Once again I'm now fortunate to have a rifle that shoots way better than I do. As many others have found out.... our new Pac-Nors drives them home..... I wish I still had that old .50 cal barrel the way it came in the box.... It would flat shoot those BO's with N120 or H4198. Killed a couple at 300yds with it and after a quick mule kick the first thing that hit the ground was their nose. ;D
Zen

[ozark]

Since I no longer have a Savage ML I believe that I am neutral on this topic. I can see where those with the original 50s have little or no interes in the 40s and 45s. It is equally true that those who have switched to the 40s and 45s have lost interest in the originals. It is natural to read and post about something you have a current interest in. After some thought I believe that the board would benefit by seperating the two. It is understandable that those with the 40s have little interest in the 50s. They have been there and moved on to a hybred model. It is stretching things to call the 40s and 45s Savage MLs. I propose that the Administrators consider separating the two in order to permit members to post and read about their particular interest without having to read what they are not intersted in. ET has made it clear that it isn't the formations of clicks but different interests only. The question is: would the board be enough better to warrant the change? I see our principal goal is to serve the membership as well as possible. Perhaps a survey on this subject would shed some light on what best to do. Ozark

[wilmsmeyer]

I personally feel that if we start adding forums in the smokeless area, then we will have to start separating the trout fisherman from the walleye fisherman on the fishing forum......the whitetail deer hunters from the Mule deer hunters on the deer hunting forum....the squirrel hunters from the rabbit hunters on the small game forum. Just trying to make a point and not sure if I did it correctly.

I understand ET's remarks and understand the concept of what is happening on the smokeless board in the drift towards smaller calibers. I also understand we have (3) ML forums already.

I am a firm believer that even though the .45 is getting all the buzz, the .50 is being used by the average Savage shooter 10:1 or more. Most of these guys are hunters that find a load and hunt.

Not sure what else to say....this topic has been raised a few times in the past when the smaller calibers were being played with.

I also read your posts on the .50, especially your PT's. I'm hoping that you trace the loads I shoot and see where they stand.

[ET]

Ozark

Thanks for viewing my post and interpreting as it was intended.

Wilmsmeyer

Your 70gr of 4198 for the 325FTX will be PT tested and displayed. I have done a preliminary PT test of this load but lost the trace when the battery went down on the laptop. The original test showed it is under 40K.PSI. This is scheduled as one of my first tests in the Spring. Another member graciously sent some 325FTX’s and I will keep my promise to test them.
They are a kicker but with my recoil reducer and PAST shoulder pad that load I can at least handle. My special interest here is for evaluating the OBT feature with different loads with a range of different bullet weights. My current level of knowledge with the PT unit is still in the infancy stage but maturing rapidly as familiarity with it increases.


Ed

[wilmsmeyer]

I think that the low pressure of this powder, in comparison with book loads, is the reason that this fearsome powder is a teddy bear on vents......I know I only replace them "because"....not for the reason most do.

[deadeye]

don't assume were are not hanging tree stands etc also. ;D there are some like me that feel we have wrung out the best accuracy w/ sabots. every year i help many local or anyone wishing better accuracy or training etc regardless if they are saboted,non-saboted or pillow ticking roundballs

i never look down on anything someone wishes to use whatever they are into providing they do the best they can within their abilities. sabots do a really remarkable job & if we look back not long ago the powder subs crowd still don't reconcile w/us in our understanding.

i think also especially w/this board & its the only board i have time for-there are a great bunch of personalities & triggerpullers here & from what i think i see many @ .5moa capable & some who can do it w/benchrest accuracy with given capable equipment. that given- we are gonna push it to its limits-thats what makes us tick.

lets remember the sav 2 was supposedly discontinued-sad! lets hope we are not at the peak law wise & headed back to the ball & patch as the only choice.

we all need to stick together & not crowd anyone out-definetly not anyone on this boards intention that i know about.

and yes sometimes while grabbing whatever smokeless i'm intending on shooting, my hands go past a couple of roundball bores & i will re-explore those also if time given someday.

[Deleted]

Well now I have both calibers,.45 Rem/Pacnor,.50 sav ml1,ml2.
Most techniques and tips that I have seen posted here are NOT
caliber specific,for example C size drill bit for opening the new savage plug, also knurling bullets,sabot fit,checking action screw tightness, ventliner orafice size,etc.
As a member I have no problem deciding what post interest me or not and I will read them accordingly.
To me if its SMOKELESS i'm interested in reading what other members have to say.
Ed, to me it's ALL GOOD and .40,.45,.50,saboted,sabotless,Savage custom,Remington custom etc, make for a nice blend of SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADING.
My thoughts,
Greenhorn

[ET]

There is nothing I would disagree with that was mentioned here.
Greenhorn, you kind of summed up another point I may be skirting around. You are correct that everything is lumped together meaning any specific information concerning a specific caliber is also tossed into a pile of info.
Now if this info had some separation then it would be easier to locate and reference a specific. Sort of creating a more user friendly environment.

I know a lot of topics concerning muzzle-loading are interrelated meaning the basic principle applies for both. Now if you own both size calibers and have the knowledge of the difference navigating around the different postings is a cake walk for you.
Now let me ask you an honest question, Once you get into the 45Cal that has a devout following how often do you think you will post about the 50 in a board that now seems dominated by the flow of the 45? It wouldn’t feel like the in thing happening.
Now if you have a specific location for the 50 would you not feel more motivated to post here about the 50 because it’s 50 related?

Anyway I feel I have said enough for now.



Ed

[Deleted]

Ed,
You have a point and if there was much more traffic here ,which very well may happen, then I would agree that there would be too many eggs in the basket to count. What about having a stock savage section and a custom section that would include everything but the .50 ? Just an idea.
GH

[ET]

Greenhorn

Yes the 50’s crowd is shrinking and I was thinking more of just a Sub-Board.

The 50 basically fathered the off chute of the other now noted calibers for smokeless muzzle-loading that everyone is interested in and it does belong in the smokeless section.
There doesn’t have to be a tight regulated segregation per say but anything really specific to the 50 should be placed there. Especially load specifics IMO.


Ed