100 yd accuracy vs. 200 yd accuracy

[ccchunter]

Has anyone had experience with a load that was so-so accurate at 100 yards, but was great at 200 and 300 yards?

Or, have you noticed that if a load won't perform well at 100 yards, it is about the same at longer distances?

With centerfire, some loads will shine at 100 yards,but at 200 and 300 they fall apart.

Nate

[Deleted]

with these guns if it dont shoot @ 100 forget 200 and longer.
only the best loads for a specified gun will get it done at long range..

[shooter]

Aug 27, 2011 17:04:07 GMT -5 ccchunter said:

Has anyone had experience with a load that was so-so accurate at 100yds

Nate

I am just wondering what you are calling so so accurate 1.5 or 2 inch group or 3-4 inch group just tying to see how you are thinking.

[dans]

My Pacnor .45 shoots only slightly bigger groups at 200 than it does at 100. Both yardages right at 1 inch. My 50s generally shoot 1.5 to 2 inches at 100 and 3 to 4 at 200. The exception is the NULA 50. It will shoot 1 to 1.25 at 100 and have not tried it a 200 yet.

[wilmsmeyer]

Never had a so-so group get better. If it shoots OK at 100, chances are it will be OK at best at 200+

With the .50's, MOA is hard to find past 100 but can be done. I would start with .458 bullets and HCR sabots. If that doesn't get you close, you may have to settle for "hunting accuracy"....4-5" groups at 200. Not the end of the world

[ccchunter]

Shooter, I consider so-so accuracy 2 inches at 100 yards.

I try to get all my rifles from .243 to 300 wby to shoot an inch at 100.

I'm relatively new to this Savage ML world. I don't duplex, I'm trying several bullet/sabot/powder combinations and have yet to get anything consistent out of my Savage.
I'm a little frustrated, actually, as I have invested in mmp sabots, harvestor sabots, n120, n110, 5744, sr4759, barnes 275xpb, barnes 290tez, hornady 300gr xtp, hornady 250 gr xtp.

To be fair, I haven't actually shot the n110, or 4759 yet but will soon. Nothing so far with any of the bullets shot have produced consistent accuracy. The original question I posed in the original post came from some frustration at the range today. I've got to so some more tinkering.

I know from experience with centerfire reloading that some guns can take quite a while to find the perfect load. My goal is a 300 yard deer slayer with the ML. Thanks for the replies.
Nate

[Deleted]

You might have to go with a Barnes original,or a 325ftx for your targeted group size. The most consistent groups that I have seen have come from the heavier hitters in the .50. And the 300 yd ,.50 cal shooters prefer the 300bo, RIFLEMAN would be a good one to PM about the 300yd shot.

[ccchunter]

Wilmsmeyer, in your experience, you think a stock .50 using single powder is generally reached it's potential with 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards?

With the sabot/bullet combos I've listed, what would you recommend using the SR4759?
Nate

[Chris Champion]

Aug 27, 2011 21:29:02 GMT -5 ccchunter said:

Shooter, I consider so-so accuracy 2 inches at 100 yards.

I try to get all my rifles from .243 to 300 wby to shoot an inch at 100.

I'm relatively new to this Savage ML world. I don't duplex, I'm trying several bullet/sabot/powder combinations and have yet to get anything consistent out of my Savage.
I'm a little frustrated, actually, as I have invested in mmp sabots, harvestor sabots, n120, n110, 5744, sr4759, barnes 275xpb, barnes 290tez, hornady 300gr xtp, hornady 250 gr xtp.

To be fair, I haven't actually shot the n110, or 4759 yet but will soon. Nothing so far with any of the bullets shot have produced consistent accuracy. The original question I posed in the original post came from some frustration at the range today. I've got to so some more tinkering.

I know from experience with centerfire reloading that some guns can take quite a while to find the perfect load. My goal is a 300 yard deer slayer with the ML. Thanks for the replies.
Nate

With the supplies that you list I would try to get a baseline load using the 300 XTP, which ever sabot you have that loads tight, and one of the three book powers, N110, SR4759 or 5744. If one of these three powders in the 42 to 44g range paired with the regular 300g XTP, (not the XTP Mag as many here have proven that those don't shoot well in the Savage), don't shoot consistent 1.5" 100yd groups then there is something else going on. Study study study the tips and hints section. Did I say study the tips and hints section. Gremlins like front base screws that bottom out on the barrel threads before they are tight, front bases sitting on the recoil lug, or action screws that are either too loose or too tight are not discussed in the Savage manual and can drive you nuts.

And no I've never had a load that was so-so accurate at 100 but shot better, (in regards to MOA), at longer range but I've had plenty that shot really good at 100 but fell apart at 200+

Good luck!

[Dave W]

.458 bullets are more user friendly IMO. The only way I can get the TEZ's to shoot is with a very heavy knurl that gets the OD up to .453+. The Barnes all coppers have always been inconsistent in diameter in my experiences ranging from .450-.4515 from the same package and even with the best loads are still not MOA at 200yds.
Try some jacketed .458 bullets bullets such as the 300 Rem or 325 FTX in addition to CC's advice in making sure everything is torqued down and the recoil lug is not touching the scope base or the front base screw is bottomed out on the barrel threads.

[wilmsmeyer]

CCC,

I think most guns out of the box will shoot to 1 1/2" at 100 yds. Yes we have all heard horror stories....but this is the site where you would here about them the most...there are so many members HERE with this gun.

Sometimes we get stuck on a gun that doesn't like anything. To maximize any guns potential we need to look at all the hook-ups and connections that turn a gun into a UNIT. Scope, rings mounts, screws that may be bottomed out, bedding or lack of, trigger. Don't forget breech plug condition/maintenance and barrel condition. We also should look at the shooter and their technique and rest. All of this is more important in then load selection....at least in the beginning, IMO.

Who wants to shoot a gun with a scope that wanders? Or one that has a heavy gritty trigger? a stripped screw in a mount or ring? And than rate a load or gun as good or bad?

I am as guilty as anyone here for going right to the "answer" about a good load that should shoot. But don't forget all the other stuff. When we all talk here, it is never always obvious what the members skill and mechanical abilities are....or how experienced they are.

[ccchunter]

I probably should have already stated that I shoot off a lead sled. The scope I have on my ML is a Leupold VXII 4x12. I have checked all the possible scope mounting issues and the scope seems to be solidly mounted.

It could be something like an action screw or other gun issue. I have been scouring this site for tips and I'm up to page 46 so far. So, I'm learning all I can about the gun and the members first hand experiences. This site is a real benefit and you members are a true brotherhood.

I failed to mention the 300 gr XTP I have is not the mag version but it is .458. It did not really care for the MMP orange. Which Harvestor would be a good fit for that bullet?

I've been really trying hard to make a spitzer work because I feel I can squeeze out a few more long range yards. But at this point I would really be happy with a solid, consistent load that I could go to and then work on more possibilities as time goes on.
Nate

[mountainam]

ccc, A few have already mentioned it, but I'll reinforce it. I have NEVER had .451" or .452" bullets EVER shoot better than .458" bullets out of my Savage or ANY other ML I own. I know, them .451" and such sure look like they ought to be accurate, but if so the .458" STILL shoots better. Wish you would have wrote in before you dumped your hard earned $$$$ into the small dia bullets, but it's easy to get caught up in their hype. The Remington bulk 300gr HP .458"@ 3/$1 ; Hornady #4500 .458" 300gr HP or 325gr FTX @ 2/$1. Use the MMP orange .458x .50 sabot or the Harvester .50x.45 black crush rib sabot---whichever loads the tightest. To determine this remove your bolt and breechplug from you rifle. Place the rifle butt on a bathroom scale and send a bullet/sabot down the bore with your ramrod. You want to be in the neighborhood of 35-40lbs. There are a lot of guys that THOUGHT they knew how much force they were loading with ----and saw how wrong they were when they used the scale. I've found the Hornady .458" 325FTX to shoot the smallest groups <1" @ 200ys using Alliant Re7 powder. Good luck on your accuracy quest!

[zakjak221]

ccc,

With the .458 Hornady's you should try either the orange mmp sabots or the Harvester Black crush rib sabots. Depending on how tight your bore is.
With .451/.452 bullets its suggested you use red harvesters or short black mmp sabots.
Your sabot is a very important key to accuracy in your gun---probably more than a lotta guys realize.
When my son was first sighting in his T/C Pro Hunter, we tried 3 or 4 sabots and finally landed on the Short mmp black. When he would try the Harv. EZ load sabots--his shots would open up 4 inches or more.
Really makes you understand how important they are.

Mark

[Deleted]

Someone needs to offer a sampler pack of bullet,sabots for newbies to find what works in their guns.
I'll start a new thread.

[Richard]

Don't ever, ever, get caught up in the cockamamie theory that a bullet can shoot a smaller group or even the same size group at 100 and also 200 or 300 ! You may.................shoot a group with a particular load at 100 yards...........then shoot a second group at 200 with the same combination and may get near that same size. It happens.....But, that 200 yard group would have been HALF the size had it passed thru the 100 yard target first. To further illustrate my point: Have you ever shot two groups with any rifle/ML at say 100 yards and they were two different sizes? I know I have and plenty of times. So, the one group you shot at 200 that was almost the same size? was, in all probability the one which would have been smaller at 100. Just look at the two widest shots in your group and draw (imaginary) lines to the muzzle of your gun. You have a "funnel" right? As those shots continue, they will increase the separation of the shots by double at 200 and triple at 300. Sure, you might have a very strong gust of wind somewhere out there which might push that one wide shot back in..........but don't count on it ;D
A bullet may "go to sleep" or "stabilize" at some distant point, but it is not going to come back to your POA. What ever course it is on it will continue on that course. In the case of an unstabalized bullet it may go thru the 100 yard target slightly "oblong" and then thru the 200 yard target round but still traveling that funnel type line.
Richard

[12ptdroptine]

Aug 28, 2011 7:13:48 GMT -5 ccchunter said:

I probably should have already stated that I shoot off a lead sled. The scope I have on my ML is a Leupold VXII 4x12. I have checked all the possible scope mounting issues and the scope seems to be solidly mounted.

It could be something like an action screw or other gun issue. I have been scouring this site for tips and I'm up to page 46 so far. So, I'm learning all I can about the gun and the members first hand experiences. This site is a real benefit and you members are a true brotherhood.

I failed to mention the 300 gr XTP I have is not the mag version but it is .458. It did not really care for the MMP orange. Which Harvestor would be a good fit for that bullet?

I've been really trying hard to make a spitzer work because I feel I can squeeze out a few more long range yards. But at this point I would really be happy with a solid, consistent load that I could go to and then work on more possibilities as time goes on.
Nate

OK shooting off the lead sled isnt a cure all...do you hold down on the barrel a little to keep things the same from shot to shot? Letting it jump will be a problem. also where do you have the front support..that can be another culprit. Also you said a Leupokd 4x12. Is it an ao? that can be another problem.However you shoot has to be consistent. all these things will affect poi. Start with first going over every connection.. and go to the tips and hints section...dont eliminate any of the steps. then start with a base book load. I know it seems redundant going back to step one. But somewhere along the line you may have missed something.
Drop

[brute]

Aug 28, 2011 15:38:42 GMT -5 Richard said:

Don't ever, ever, get caught up in the cockamamie theory that a bullet can shoot a smaller group or even the same size group at 100 and also 200 or 300 ! You may.................shoot a group with a particular load at 100 yards...........then shoot a second group at 200 with the same combination and may get near that same size. It happens.....But, that 200 yard group would have been HALF the size had it passed thru the 100 yard target first. To further illustrate my point: Have you ever shot two groups with any rifle/ML at say 100 yards and they were two different sizes? I know I have and plenty of times. So, the one group you shot at 200 that was almost the same size? was, in all probability the one which would have been smaller at 100. Just look at the two widest shots in your group and draw (imaginary) lines to the muzzle of your gun. You have a "funnel" right? As those shots continue, they will increase the separation of the shots by double at 200 and triple at 300. Sure, you might have a very strong gust of wind somewhere out there which might push that one wide shot back in..........but don't count on it ;D
A bullet may "go to sleep" or "stabilize" at some distant point, but it is not going to come back to your POA. What ever course it is on it will continue on that course. In the case of an unstabalized bullet it may go thru the 100 yard target slightly "oblong" and then thru the 200 yard target round but still traveling that funnel type line.
Richard

Well stated ! So few understand the laws of physics and how they always apply, no matter what we want to believe.

[10ga]

Just a couple of other items to consider, and they arn't load, sabot , bullet combos.

1. Is action bedded? EVERY rifle I have has improved accuracy and group size after propper bedding. 22lr to .50cal MLII
2. Are you shooting a COLD barrel? Are you waiting long enough between shots or using a cool rod?
3. Are you leaving the ramrod in the thimbles when you shoot? Get a range rod and use a take down when hunting.
4. Are you leaving the sling on, off or as brace?
5. Have you determined if your gun likes a dirty or clean barrel? Some MLIIs don't settle in until after 5-10 shots after cleaning, others like every shot on a virgin barrel.
6. Have you slugged your barrel to determine what size it really is and if it has any type of flaws? This can help determine which sabots may be best.
7. Have you lapped the barrel. This can be controversial but I have found that propper lapping also helps accuracy without fail. Probably more so with MLs of all types than even with cartridge rifles. Go easy and go slow with this procedure!
8. Have you checked your crown. Even a small flaw, defect or otherwise is really bad for accuracy here.
9. To join in the chorus, I have found that .458s are the most accurate bullets in the .50 MLIIs. (I have 2, one blue barrel and one stainless, both Savage) In .458 I have shot Hornadys, Rem. and Speer. Accuracy wise there is no detectable difference in my rifles.
10. Don't mix 209s. Find one brand and stick with it unless there is an ignition problem.

I use 4759 about 90% of the time and mostly shoot 42 grains as my accuracy load. The stainless gun shoots 4198 only slightly better IMO but I have lots more 4759 so that's what I shoot. Both of my guns will shoot less than moa at 100 if I do my part. If I go over 1.2" it's definitly operator error. Some days are just better than others.

Just some more things to consider as you digest what everyone else has said. And I'll give all the other posters dittos too. Aint range time fun? Best and keep us updated. 10 ga

[shoot2reload]

Sorry for minor hijack, but this tip has me curious:

Aug 28, 2011 20:14:20 GMT -5 10ga said:

3. Are you leaving the ramrod in the thimbles when you shoot? Get a range rod and use a take down when hunting.

Is the concern a barrel harmonics-type thing, or is it more about the barrel resting on something unstable/loose?

[ccchunter]

ALOT of good points coming my way from you ML pros! I do appreciate the effort to help square me away.

It's funny, you can spend alot of time reloading for centerfire but this is a different animal. Many of the same principles apply but the addition of the sabot combination adds another twist.

To answer some questions that have come from these threads:
1. I am shooting a AO Leupold.
2. I Do shoot with down pressure on the scope because of the amount of muzzle jump. (these 300 grainers have some umph)

The Savage manual, if it was more specific would be more useful on load development, I think.

[GMB54-120]

To be fair, I haven't actually shot the n110, or 4759 yet but will soon

You are missing out if you haven't tried N110 IMO. It may not give the top 300gr speeds but it is super clean and dependable. I dont even use as tight of a sabot with it and im very pleased with its performance. Mid range book load data seems just fine too.

If i want more than it delivers i use the .458s like a 325gr FTX and Re7 or N120. Those can rock your world.

[ccchunter]

Getting back to my original question on accuracy:
I have read about some centerfire bullets that wouldn't fully stabilize until past 100 yards.

I didn't know if anyone had experienced this with their ML's.

It seems like an unlikely scenario though, especially after reading some feedback here.

[dans]

Heat is the enemy of the plastic sabot. If you are not using a cooling rod, and the temps are high, 15 minutes between shots is not too long. I write the time down and/or use a kitchen timer. Keep your empty rifle and components in the shade while waiting for the next attempt. Some rifles like to be shot dirty, some need wiped between shots, you will just have to experiment with your rifle to find out. I have had pretty good luck running a dry patch in and out the bore between shots, others use carefully developed procedures between shot. Maybe some of them will chime in with what they do. You will find your load. It just takes time.