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Post by cubdriver55 on Mar 7, 2009 22:48:08 GMT -5
I am planning on hunting Brown bear with my 110 and was wondering if anyone had any reccomendation on a good heavy deep penitrating bullet and sabbot combo. I have only kiled whitetails so far using Hornady pistol bullets.
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Post by mike3132 on Mar 8, 2009 0:32:41 GMT -5
A 110 is a long action center fire rifle not a muzzle loader. If you talking about a 10ML then any 300 grain or bigger solid bullet like Barnes. Mike
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Post by screwbolts on Mar 8, 2009 7:08:36 GMT -5
As stated above if it's a ML, and you don't cast your own. IMHO, then the Harvester Hard cast 330s or 400s are the way to go. They will drive deep, straight and let a lot of blood out and air in. Isn't that the purpose of a Hunting Projectile? :-) IMHO
Ken
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Mar 8, 2009 7:20:09 GMT -5
I would go with a non-expanding hardcast solid with a flat nose. I have some excellent brown bear bullets in my box.
370 LBT's. .451 cal. In an HPH12 and 70 gr of H4198, I pushed them over 2400 fps with so-so accuracy.
Bullets like this may completely penetrate a Brown bear even after encountering big bones.
I personally would not go with the copper Barnes that DO open up as this will impede pentration.
I have no use for these 370 gr bullets. If you would like a sample, send me a PM and I will put some in the mail for you. ;D
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Post by jeff on Mar 8, 2009 8:12:37 GMT -5
Nosler has a monolific solid @340 grains [451" diameter] Shockey uses them on his dangerous game hunts. Harvester has a 300 grain solid,they sent me to try also a 451" dia. however I have not put em in the air yet. Jeff~
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Mar 8, 2009 10:12:35 GMT -5
The heavier coppers driven hard would be good choices and I guess I came across as going against them. My first choice would be the big hard cast followed closely by the big coppers.
Plenty of hurt in both choices.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 8, 2009 10:42:15 GMT -5
Who sells the hard cast, brand name? I'd like to see how they do in my test.
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Post by encoreguy on Mar 8, 2009 11:24:36 GMT -5
Who sells the hard cast, brand name? I'd like to see how they do in my test. You might also want to test the Lehigh bullets. If you want a non expander use his .458 match bullets, higher b.c without the hollow point. I am getting ready to test a bunch of his bullets and I will keep you posted. They are lathe turned bullets and are beautiful.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 8, 2009 11:28:53 GMT -5
encoreguy,
I would like your update, where did you buy them, can't have too much STUFF.
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Post by Al on Mar 8, 2009 12:10:29 GMT -5
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Post by youp50 on Mar 8, 2009 12:22:03 GMT -5
I have never been Brown bear or Grizzly bear hunting. It is not even on a list of things I want to do. I have kilt a few black bears. I have rassled one. Bear rassling is, most assuredly, not on my list of things to repeat.
A guide with back up would be required for all of us from the lower 48. Given that prerequisite, I would be confident in my 250 TMZ over 70 gr of H4198. Shoot him high in the shoulders and there will be plenty of time to reload.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 8, 2009 12:39:38 GMT -5
youp50,
I'm sure your right, however, I would not even consider using a 250 bullet [TMZ] on a 1500 to 1800 pound Moose, The 290 is the minimum, no less on a Brown Bear, The gent I hunt with has been guiding for bear for 16 years, two hunts a year, spring and fall, he doesn't believe you can be overgunned for bear, If you can shoot it a 416, its fine, 300 Ultra Mag, 375 H&H all good. He would prefer not to have to follow up the hunters shot, But come up under gunned, and he will will, this is come thing you agree to before you send your money, No guide worth his salt, wants to loose an animal. That is way the first thing you do at camp, is shoot, he's not worried about the rifle loosing its zero, he wants to see if you can shoot.
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Post by screwbolts on Mar 8, 2009 13:21:02 GMT -5
Who sells the hard cast, brand name? I'd like to see how they do in my test. Hi BigMoose, read my post, ;D ;D I also cast them my self! Read the third post in this thread Harvester, the saaammmeee one that sells the sabots, they are cast from molds they bought from LBT Molds, Veral Smith's company. send me a PM and I might send you a few, I cast them .451 330 Gr smooth sided hard cast of WW dropped in water from the mold. Ken
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 8, 2009 13:36:13 GMT -5
Ken, Thank you for your kind offer.
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Post by willscarlet on Mar 8, 2009 14:55:39 GMT -5
Encoreguy,would be interested in your test results with the Lehigh bullets. They ARE beautiful--but expensive!!!
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Post by screwbolts on Mar 8, 2009 15:36:32 GMT -5
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Post by youp50 on Mar 8, 2009 18:04:14 GMT -5
Moose,
Interesting thoughts on bullet weight. I would not consider a 220 grain bullet from a 30-06 undergunned for a moose. 220 grain 2400 fps. I can top that with a 250 grain at 2400 fps from my ML. That is really with in 10 percent velocity of the 338 Mag and 250 grain bullets.
I think that it is better to have a 'smaller' rifle that you can shoot well than a super ultra mag that leaves scope eye and the attending flinch. Premium bullets go a long way in making a cartridge shoot 'bigger'. My ML with 250 grain bullets is definately ' smaller' than those 350s you are practicing with. I think your guide demonstrates good common sense by seeing if you can shoot.
Point being these ML's are a very powerful firearm.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 8, 2009 20:27:21 GMT -5
I agree, shooting well is the first consideration. On a prefect hit, Brown Bears have been killed with a 22 Savage. Key word perfect. Not all shoots will be perfect. I haven't lost an animal, in all my years of hunting. My motto, get as close as you can, know your weapon, an practise, practice and practise some more, bench shooting just means the rifle cal shoot, practise in hunting postions. In a cemetery in Alaska, I forget the town, Nome I think is a tomb stone, it says
Here lies [name] He done kilt 11 Brown Boars With a .22 Savage But the twelve one Done evened the score forever.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 8, 2009 20:31:34 GMT -5
screwbolts,
Every interesting chart, you have to be impressed with LBT bullets, wish they would have included all cooper bullets like the X bullet
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Post by rossman40 on Mar 8, 2009 21:30:40 GMT -5
If I had to choose one bullet to look seriously at I would go with a Swift A-Frame .458 350gr if it would shoot accurate enough. Monolithics are hole punchers on heavy bone but if you get a broadside shot and do not hit any bone your just poking a nice neat hole with little temporary wound channel so you have to be dead nuts accurate with the shot placement. A ridiculously large amount of penetration just shows me the bullet isn't transferring energy very fast or not hardly at all. All copper bullets like Barnes will mushroom but then when they hit heavy bone the petals have a habit of breaking off then your left with a core of low density material. With the Swift or Nosler if it hits bone after it mushrooms you may lose some of the nose but the heavy rear core will mushroom and is still trucking along. The Lehigh bullets maybe too soft, they do list using C36000 brass but no mention of the level of temper.
As far as Jim Shockey he has used the 300gr Partition to bag many a brown bear in the past. He used to say that was the bullet he would bet his life on. Nosler must be telling him to plug the soilds now.
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Post by rbinar on Mar 8, 2009 21:48:52 GMT -5
the Speer 350 grain semi-spitzer or the 350 grain Barnes are prime choices.
I would go with a 350 or maybe 400 grain bullet (but the 350 is tougher in many cases) in the belief that overkill is just right.
I know the lead bullets are all the current internet rage but I don't see many PHs adopting them as the greatest thing since a pocket on a shirt. A big heavy jacketed or monolithic bullet is still considered the best bet for dangerous game.
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Post by cubdriver55 on Mar 8, 2009 22:41:15 GMT -5
I would like to thank everyone for all the good info on various bullets. Yes I was talking about a Savage 10 ml not a 110. I have had very little experience with muzzel loaders so I was not sure what bullet to use. I tend to agree with the fact you need a bullet with some type of expansion just incase no large bone is hit. The a frame bullet in .458 sounds like a good choice if it is accurate. I think with a good shoulder shot there would be time to reload and get a second shot. I am not fond of tracking bears in the bush. What would be a good sabot to use with this bullet? When I first got this gun I did not have the right sabots and had a problem getting it to go off with smokeless powder. That is when I went back to the black sabbott and the Hornady pistol bullets which seems to work just fine. I am also a person who believes in big guns. I like to use a 460 weatherby for big bears but I want to kill a Brown Bear with a muzzel loader .
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Post by screwbolts on Mar 9, 2009 7:03:42 GMT -5
screwbolts, Every interesting chart, you have to be impressed with LBT bullets, wish they would have included all cooper bullets like the X bullet Hi BigM, I don't know allot about the Barnes Bullet,( some will say I know nothing at all ) but isn't line 18 in the chart a ."45/300 gr Copper HP Barnes MZ" ? Did you open the links that Gleason.chapman included at the bottom of the charts post, there is some really good readin there. I agree totally to your bench vers. hunting rest shooting. I often use trees in my yard for rests while shooting because that is what I have in the woods. And I would also be carrying shooting sticks as you do, if I was ever fortunate enough to walk the tundra amongst it's Great Creatures. Ken
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Post by Chris Champion on Mar 9, 2009 8:09:48 GMT -5
cubdriver55,
Your choices of sabots with .458 bullets are the MMP Orange sabot and the Harvester Black Crush rib. Depends on how tight your bore is. The MMP usually work best in a tighter bore where the Harvester will likely be your best bet if your bore is a little loose.
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Post by screwbolts on Mar 9, 2009 8:21:15 GMT -5
If I had to choose one bullet to look seriously at I would go with a Swift A-Frame .458 350gr if it would shoot accurate enough. Monolithics are hole punchers on heavy bone but if you get a broadside shot and do not hit any bone your just poking a nice neat hole with little temporary wound channel so you have to be dead nuts accurate with the shot placement. A ridiculously large amount of penetration just shows me the bullet isn't transferring energy very fast or not hardly at all. All copper bullets like Barnes will mushroom but then when they hit heavy bone the petals have a habit of breaking off then your left with a core of low density material. With the Swift or Nosler if it hits bone after it mushrooms you may lose some of the nose but the heavy rear core will mushroom and is still trucking along. The Lehigh bullets maybe too soft, they do list using C36000 brass but no mention of the level of temper. As far as Jim Shockey he has used the 300gr Partition to bag many a brown bear in the past. He used to say that was the bullet he would bet his life on. Nosler must be telling him to plug the soilds now. Rossman40, I value all your responces very much and your knowledge is unserpassed. I do feel that it is VERY Important to differentiate a solids shape/profile!! They do not all perform the same! All of the Comdom wrapped, solid copper "solids" that I am aware of have a Round Nose or very small Meplat! The LBT hard cast in .451 has a .330 Metplat, A large metpat performs much different at transferring energy than your store bought solids, please look at the chart, I beleive it does show large or the same sixe wound channel in that writers tests, Not Theory! that the Large Metplat left a longer same size or larger chanel than your Mushrooming Needed bullet. The attached article that are with the chart have a graet deal of info in them. I do own a LBT mold for my own use and all my Family has found Bang flops in many deer hit by what I call my Whopper Boolit. I do Have and have read, Veral Smiths Vol 3 of the book mentioned in the article. I have found his explanation of why/how a metplat works to be very accurate. You can put all solids in the same catagory as you have done, but to do so is very inaccurate! It is the same as saying the Swift Aframe is the same shape as a V-max therefor they will perform identical. I hope this makes some cense, I am one who feels very little need to use a store boughten Bullets. Ken
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 9, 2009 13:39:34 GMT -5
rossman, I am in no position to match knowledge with you, thats a given. bullets that have great penetration, just might mean, when in hit a very large bone, it will break thru it and do what its designed to do. The first Moose I shoot with a muzzleloader,the bullet hit were I was aiming, the shoulder, a TC Bonded, It blow apart, into tiny pieces. Had I been using an all cooper bullet, it would have smashed the bone and brought the animal, down, the second shoot I put behind the shoulder, and dropped the animal. As for endorsement by celebrity hunters...Its pay for play, only they know what they use in the field, Money Talks I once asked a camp owner, about one of TV guys, pluging his camp, Yes, he does it, and airs the show, for 10,000 and a free trip for their whole crew.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 9, 2009 16:38:38 GMT -5
screwbolts,
You sound fine to me, and much credit to you for fighting the good fight
I wish you the best of good luck, I merely post my own thoughts.
For experts, I turn to Rick, Edge and Smokeeter.
I do have a very small knowledge of hunting after 62 years in the field you have to pick-up a little. Once again my best wishes to you, I hope enjoy our sport for many years to come Marty
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Post by cubdriver55 on Mar 9, 2009 20:51:34 GMT -5
Ok Great I am going to try the Swift -A-Frame .458 350 grain with the MMP Orange sabot or the Harvester Black Crush rib. Now where is a good place to order these sabots from? Also does anyone have a good powder load for this heavy bullet with max velocity? I will let everyone know if I get the chance to kill a brown bear with it this spring. Thanks Steve
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Post by rossman40 on Mar 9, 2009 23:00:07 GMT -5
To be honest I just helped a buddy who is going to Alaska for his first brown bear and moose hunt with his ammo selection. Although I offered my 10ML for him to use, he is taking a Ruger 375 H&H. In that caliber there are a ton of top grade bullets that any good PH would be proud to use. After sorting everything out it came down to the 300gr A-Frame. The A-Frame is bonded, the Partition is not. It is more controlled expansion and will not mushroom like a pancake like the Trophy Bonded Bearclaw or the Hornady Interlock.
The main thing with your search in selecting a bullet would be accuracy. You can have the best bullet made but if you can't put it where you need it... With the 10ML and a sabot it is a bit tougher. The big solids, the hard cast and even the heavy jacketed A-Frame may not obturate enough with some loads to get decent accuracy for long range shots. You will want some high pressure behind it to get the obturation so don't go with a soft load.
As far as the reference to the article by Al Marion you have to look at the media he used. Ballistic clay has about twice the density of ballistic gelatin and while it is easy and cheap to use for comparison, you can't take the data to the bank. Back in the old days builders clay was used as a test medium. But on a sunny day it would dry out and there was no standard for calibration. Somebody came up with using a oil based clay (known as modeling clay or plasticine) and pretty much the standard for ballistic testing is Roma Plastilina #1 and is only used nowadays in ballistic labs as a backing material for testing bullet proof vests.
It all boils down to a balancing act of terminal effects. If you want max penetration for a Texas heart shot your going to have to give up on energy transfer that causes massive trauma along the wound channel. You have to know what your bullet will do and won't do, plan your shot placement accordingly and be able to put it there.
Screwbolt, Everybody's opinion is welcome here and I have to second Bigmoose's post. I grew up learning from old guys and Elmer Keith was one of my heroes and I think I read just about everything I could find he wrote when I was a kid. But I haven't cast a bullet in over 30 years.
Now release the goat!
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Mar 10, 2009 5:17:33 GMT -5
I don't think that there are many bullets or loads that will "shock and traumatize" a very big bear without busting up some major framework. Just my opinion.
For comparison, a light speed 150 gr bullet from a 300 win mag MAY sweep a deer off its feet with a double lung shot. Assume a 200 lb deer: Impact speed at 50 yds about 3100 fps....Energy...about 3200 lbs. From the energy standpoint we have a 16:1 ratio (energy to deer weight)
Take a souped up 350 grain expanding .45 cal bullet going 2500 fps: Bear weight 700 lbs: Impact speed at 50 yds about 2350 fps....energy...about 3600 lbs. Same energy standpoint we have about a 5:1 ratio (energy to bear weight)
I would rather have a bear figuring out how to get up rather then taking a 20 second death run in my direction not knowing how "dead" he is. Stabbing them in the eye with a ramrod would be your second shot.
To achieve the same energy ratio on the deer that 150 gr 300 win Mag load would have to slow down to about 1700 fps or that of a lightly loaded 30-30.
Because of the close range encounters with bears, funny "facing you...about to inspect you....maybe run at you" angles I would want to smash bones with authority and disable the thing. A large expanding bullet probably may still do this. And a solid bullet will do this. Having a guarenteed hole through some vital organs caused by the bullet and/or large bone frags won't hurt either.
I guess you'll only get one shot with the ML. Even loaded with the best combo, I'm sure your guide will be ready with a repeater.
Just my 2 cents
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