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Post by pfw4666 on Jul 16, 2011 22:03:58 GMT -5
Hi all,
I was wondering what type of powder to use in cold weather. Temps during deer season in IL can range from 60 degrees down to 5 degrees below zero. I would guess the temps average around 35 - 40 degrees. 50 cal 10ML II with a 250 gr XTP and black MMP sabot. Thanks,
Paul
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Post by tar12 on Jul 16, 2011 22:25:05 GMT -5
AA5744 is a s failure proof as it gets. If you have the need for speed N110,N120,4759.
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Post by youp50 on Jul 17, 2011 19:24:44 GMT -5
Straight 4198 under a 250 and cold temp is a misfire in the making. If you feel the need for 4198 you should duplex. I use 4759 in my 50.
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Post by hoz on Jul 17, 2011 20:50:38 GMT -5
So, in your opinion 4198 is not my best choice for hunting WI/IL? I enjoy punching paper, but whitey tails is what I am after and it gets pretty cold here during our ML season. What do you experienced fellas recommend For the 45 cal. Rem 700/McGowen? Thanks guys
Rob
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Post by jaspervtec on Jul 17, 2011 20:51:44 GMT -5
A bunch of us use 4198 here in ny. Shoot in ten degree temps never had a problem. Using 71grs. With a cci mag primer.
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Post by dans on Jul 17, 2011 21:48:22 GMT -5
I have used nothing but H-4198 under a 195 Barnes Expander MZ with a CCI 209m in my .45 PacNor with no problems. My 50 load uses 4759 and no problems in cold weather. Single powders only, no duplexes.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jul 18, 2011 5:00:25 GMT -5
I have a completely different opinion then youp50 regarding H4198.
Have used this powder almost exclusively for many years. Not sure what youp50's load is, or his loading procedure, or the conditions of the gun when loading/loaded. However, many shots have been fired by me using a minimum of 76 gr and a max of 80 gr and hundreds of 250 TMZ;s and Spitfires. Temps have been as low as a few degrees below zero. Load is always seated hard and then "compacted" with a few raps to the ramrod. No lubes or swabbing. The combo must be tight and require some brute force to load....knurling may be required as was with the Barnes coppers
In the past, some here have also voiced that N120 is prone to failure in the cold...yet Tar12 has shot a truckload of N120 in the cold, and no problems...not one that I recall. I do believe that most of his experience is with 300 gr bullets.
I think sometimes a person has a problem one or two times and they are sullied for life....and it's hard to blame them....because there is no doubt that something happened. The question is why? And it's so easy to blame the cold....but there are so many other potential reasons for a failure, that unless scientifically proven, it's a guess.
I have shot out my gun over a chrony when unloading that was hunted with in very cold weather and saw no loss in speed worth mentioning. That's about as scientific as I've gotten...the rest is purely a track record that is long.
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Post by cuda on Jul 18, 2011 12:53:44 GMT -5
Wilmsmeyer is your a 45 or 50? I know it goes back and forth between the two. We for get to mention it and newbes do not know the difference. What will 76gr of h4198 get for speed with a 250 TMZ? I use 69gr IMR4198 in my 50 and .458 300 Remington BCR. I have not had a problem with it.
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Post by tar12 on Jul 18, 2011 16:03:06 GMT -5
You are spot on Wilms. It only takes one or two times to break your confidence in a load. 4227 broke my heart more times than I care to remember yet one of Edges buddies shoots it exclusively and has for a long time with out issue. Go figure..I have shot N120 excuslively for the last 3 yrs. 2 in the .50 and 1 in the Pac .45. I recently cracked the lid on the 3rd lb of N120 for the .45. All 300 grainers in the .50 and 195s and a few 200 grn XTPs in the .45 without failure. I have every confidence in this load as you do with the 4198. I have yet to try the H4198 but more than likely will this winter just to see if I am missing something... ;D
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jul 18, 2011 17:08:47 GMT -5
Cuda.
.50 cal. 76 gr will get me almost 2700 and 80 gives an honest 2850. It's quite a load that kinda requires a strong bullet like a copper.
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Post by youp50 on Jul 18, 2011 17:45:29 GMT -5
The key components are;
50 cal
4198
250 gr
-20 F
I load tighter than most can. 80 pounds plus on a scale. I will not trust 4198 during my ML season.
Do a search on the old board and see what RB in AR has to say about 250 grain bullets and 4198 powders. He didn't mess with cold temps down there. Then if you use it and it misfires .... I told you so.
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Post by Richard on Jul 18, 2011 18:42:19 GMT -5
I don't have any dog in this fight due to the fact I no longer reside and hunt in NJ and NC ML season might only see temps in the upper teens or twenties, but more likely 30's and 40's ;D. Now "IF" I was hunting in one of the cold weather states, I would definitely be using a duplex............whether .50 or .45 or .40! We all know 5744 and N-110 ignite about as good as any powder......along with 4759. So, it stands to reason that by using one of these powders as a starter (generally around 10 gr.) for one of the other slower burning powders, that you will get ignition? Now, if you are satisfied with the results you are getting with straight 5744 or N-110? Then search no further. If not, then try duplexing. Surely in our loads section there are enough proven loads. Richard
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Post by Dave W on Jul 18, 2011 20:33:55 GMT -5
To the original question, any of the book recommended powders should provide pretty stable results across a broad range of temps and should be better for the XTP in regards to speed and fragging.
As for H4198 in the .45, never had a misfire, sabotless or saboted. I lose about a fps per degree sabotless with 250-300gr bullets, more with saboted loads.
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Post by morgan1109 on Jul 19, 2011 16:54:47 GMT -5
I live in Iowa so the conditions are likely similar. I’ve put over 100 shots downrange in below freezing weather (and a few in the field!) while preparing for last season. Anytime it dropped below 32 F I tried to make it out to the range since I hunt mostly in December and January. Along with taking deer I always fire my round at the end of the day, etc. I’ve never had a misfire using AA 5744. It’s not a large sample. I hope to at least double it this year, but I am confident it will shoot when it matters.
I’ve been able to take the top off of some brush weed at 100 yards in -15 F weather. I saw no loss in performance as the temp dropped while fully expecting too.
Just an FYI, i didn't have much luck with .452 bullets. I had to move up to the BO .458's before the groups really shrunk. It may be a powder thing, but most comments here seem to indicate it's a barrel thing. The .458's just seem to fly better out of a stock 50 barrel. I mention it simply because i couldn't shoot 452's and never determined why, and you mentioned you use .452's.
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Post by 153 on Jul 19, 2011 18:39:04 GMT -5
I don't have any dog in this fight due to the fact I no longer reside and hunt in NJ and NC ML season might only see temps in the upper teens or twenties, but more likely 30's and 40's ;D. Now "IF" I was hunting in one of the cold weather states, I would definitely be using a duplex............whether .50 or .45 or .40! We all know 5744 and N-110 ignite about as good as any powder......along with 4759. So, it stands to reason that by using one of these powders as a starter (generally around 10 gr.) for one of the other slower burning powders, that you will get ignition? Now, if you are satisfied with the results you are getting with straight 5744 or N-110? Then search no further. If not, then try duplexing. Surely in our loads section there are enough proven loads. Richard I second Richard. If you are worried go duplex. I live on the VA/NC line in the central part of both states and hunt both states. We may have temps in the high 20's for just a night or two during ML season. My go to load of 11/49 of N110/H322 always go boom and within 1" POI in temps from 20s to the 80s. I have never had a misfire with this load and it will shoot MOA after 7-8 fouling shots.
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gjs4
Forkhorn
Posts: 75
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Post by gjs4 on Sept 3, 2011 9:49:44 GMT -5
A bunch of us use 4198 here in ny. Shoot in ten degree temps never had a problem. Using 71grs. With a cci mag primer. Scrapped 4198 last year in wNY because it let me down...big time... have used 5744 and 4759 wo issues..but on to rl7 now under a 300bo
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Post by TGinPA on Sept 3, 2011 10:07:55 GMT -5
One failure in cold weather (temp in high teens) with H4198 (PN45) which I posted was the last time I used it as a single hunting deer. Duplex has been good to me so far... TG
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Post by sw on Sept 3, 2011 14:54:51 GMT -5
In testing VV-110 back appx 2000 with 250XTP in both 10-ML and then 10ML-2, VV-110 had less velocity variation than 4227,5744,4759, or AA2400. The test temps ranged from 100+ to the teens. I have shot VV-110/250XTP at -5 degrees with less than 50 '/sec loss from highest temps shot. Back then the barrels were possibly a little looser. TB had me testing short MMPs with 250XTP, with WW underneath sabot up to 47gs in the summer(90+) w/o failure. Even 300 XTPs shot ok. Speed with 47g was near 2500'/sec. My normal hunting load before going to duplex, or graduating to duplex, was 46g VV-110/250XTP and 2430-2450'/sec depending on which rifle was being shot. Even the book load then was 44g VV-110 +/- 2g for 250-300g bullet. So, my opinion, 44g VV-110 with WW under your sabot/250g bullet will be about as good as it gets, for a 250g bullet.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Sept 3, 2011 15:20:26 GMT -5
Ive never tried N110 below 70F but it ignites with a nice sharp crack with the 225-275gr bullets and its super clean. Ive only tried a few shots of 4759 (new jug) and its was 80F outside. It seemed like it required 2-3 more grains for similar performance as N110.
IMO N110 may cost a few bucks more than 4759 but so far i really like it with upto a 275gr bullet and 41-43gr.
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nic58
8 Pointer
Posts: 237
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Post by nic58 on Sept 3, 2011 16:53:27 GMT -5
To the original question, any of the book recommended powders should provide pretty stable results across a broad range of temps and should be better for the XTP in regards to speed and fragging. I absolutely agree! Good results are as simple as that in the .50 caliber 10ML-II!
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Post by mountainam on Sept 3, 2011 21:12:51 GMT -5
Myself, when in doubt the double base powders win out with me. With nitroglycerin, they are as a rule easier to ignite. So Re7 wins over H4198; 10x wins over H322 and AA5744 wins over SR4759. The one powder that seems to break the rules for me is VV N-110. I agree with SW---it's as good as it gets when using a 250 gr bullet and it primes ALL of my duplexes.
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Post by tar12 on Sept 4, 2011 6:05:38 GMT -5
Keep in mind that 5744 is also a double based powder. Although it is not a speed demon it has accounted for a lot of dead deer!
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Post by Rifleman on Sept 4, 2011 7:18:04 GMT -5
I believe many of the " cold weather" failures for a particular powder are not due to temperature at all. I believe they are due to condensation or moisture getting to the powder. I know, I know, we are all very careful to maintain our rifles in pristine condition, keep the rain out of the muzzle, store the rifle in the cold, never bring it in loaded to a warm truck or house, make sure the bore is dry before we load it again, etc etc. Uh hmm-Really? Lets take a look at what causes powder to ignite and burn. The physics of fire are the same inside a rifle barrel as they are in any other condition. It takes 4 things for fire to occur as represented by this image of the fire tetrahedron: Fuel, oxygen, heat, and a chemical reaction. The fuel is the gunpowder, the heat is supplied by the primer, the oxygen is present in chemical form in the gunpowder as well as in the tiny spaces between the gunpowder granules, and the chemical reaction takes place by the primers initial explosion warming the gunpowder up to the point it starts to evaporate and give off flammable gas which then ignites. As long as these things happen you will have ignition. Some powders are better for suited for cold temps then others, this is true, however it is quite possible some of the problems experienced by folks during cold weather were caused by other factors such as moisture rather then the cold temperatures.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2011 9:39:56 GMT -5
Has anyone ever questioned the primer in these misfire events? Maybe the 4198 needs MORE flame/heat to ignite than do other powders at low temps.That seems to be the consensus here. I'm quite sure that the hottest available primers are being used by the misfire group of people. UNTIL a hotter primer is made or a Better ignition system 4198 will be on the "Beware of cold temp" list. Did anyone of the misfires happen with a recessed plug? That would be the Hottest situation that can be obtained,right? Just trying to analyze the situation to see what the problem really is.
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Post by ET on Sept 4, 2011 10:38:09 GMT -5
I believe many of the " cold weather" failures for a particular powder are not due to temperature at all. I believe they are due to condensation or moisture getting to the powder. I know, I know, we are all very careful to maintain our rifles in pristine condition, keep the rain out of the muzzle, store the rifle in the cold, never bring it in loaded to a warm truck or house, make sure the bore is dry before we load it again, etc etc. Uh hmm-Really? Lets take a look at what causes powder to ignite and burn. The physics of fire are the same inside a rifle barrel as they are in any other condition. It takes 4 things for fire to occur as represented by this image of the fire tetrahedron: Fuel, oxygen, heat, and a chemical reaction. The fuel is the gunpowder, the heat is supplied by the primer, the oxygen is present in chemical form in the gunpowder as well as in the tiny spaces between the gunpowder granules, and the chemical reaction takes place by the primers initial explosion warming the gunpowder up to the point it starts to evaporate and give off flammable gas which then ignites. As long as these things happen you will have ignition. Some powders are better for suited for cold temps then others, this is true, however it is quite possible some of the problems experienced by folks during cold weather were caused by other factors such as moisture rather then the cold temperatures. Rifleman With all due respect I have to ask a question that puzzles me concerning a solid being heated then giving off a gas that is ignited. It has always been my understanding that a solid with flammable properties can be ignited releasing byproducts of expanding gases and additional heat. But never have heard or read of heat releasing a flammable gas or vapor for ignition requirement from a solid. Help me out for understanding this one. Ed
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Post by Chris Champion on Sept 4, 2011 11:10:56 GMT -5
I've shot 6 or 7 lbs of H4198 in all kinds of weather conditions between the 50 and 45 with never a mis-fire and very little difference in cold weather performance. Temps as high as 70F with the 45 down to single digits with both guns. 67g with tight fitting .458 bullet/sabot combos in the 50 cal and 62-63g with the 195 BX and lt blue Harvester in the 45. Use the right amount of powder for your bullet weight with a tight fitting sabot and Fed209A or CCIM primers and H4198 will not let you down. In the 45 cal at 60F 62g shoots 2760 fps with 195 Barnes. In single digits it still shoots 2730 or so. In the 50 cal at 50F 67g with .458 300g BO shot 2400 fps. In single digits it still shot 2350 ish. Like DaveW has stated I see about 1 fps drop per 1 deg drop in temp.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Sept 4, 2011 12:12:02 GMT -5
Chris,
I can't think of anything to add to your post except....I agree 100%
H4198 is a fine cold weather powder when you treat your gun properly.
I don't think anyone that shoots center fire has any gripes regarding powder selection. Our ML's are NOT center fires and the variables include load density/compaction, areas for moisture to invade the powder, initial resistance to ignition, potentially a sabot.
This is the weak link and guarding against the weaknesses is the solution for success.
Not sure that there has been a valid argument against H4198 in the Savage...other than a few folks that had a problem that was only attributed to cold weather based on opinion. Too many of us have not had this problem in very cold conditions to warrant a worry.
I will say, as I have before, that once someone has a problem, it is very, very hard to get over the mental hang up....and a person will try something else instead. Natural reaction. I would do the same.
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Post by shoot2reload on Sept 4, 2011 13:05:02 GMT -5
Not trying to argue with that pictorial, only adding to it: a chemical reaction needs a certain "activation energy." Conditions such as ambient temperature, moisture, load compression, etc. can effect how much activation is required to start the reaction.
I don't think anyone would deny that different powders can be harder to light.
It never hurts to hedge your bets with a robust primer (eg. Fed 209A or CCI209M).
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Post by 10ga on Sept 4, 2011 18:44:51 GMT -5
Glad I live and hunt in Eastern Virginia. First 2 weeks of Nov. for ML season and regular firearms (MLII for the stand as we're shotgun or ML only) to 1st sat of Jan. ML season = frosty mornings, possibly upper 20s to 40s overnight, then 60s and 70s in daytime. Then regular firearms season down to the teens overnight with cold snaps in late Dec and 1st week Jan. but day temps will be 30s at the WORST or better. You guys make my bones hurt with that talk about anything below about 18F. But then I pretty much shoot 4759 single or as a starter anyway. Don't take NO chances, you never know when that 220" will show up. OH yeah, mosquitos anytime it's over 60, that's lotsa fun. 10 ga
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Post by shoot2reload on Sept 4, 2011 19:52:00 GMT -5
When I'm hunting I'm all about 5744. I know it's a boring vanilla low-finesse load, but I figure at 200 yards or less the deer aren't going to know the difference, and I have yet to have any kind of failure with it. For me the peace of mind trumps any additional fps I might get.
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