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Post by tar12 on Jul 3, 2011 5:21:40 GMT -5
Looking good Ed....and about time! ;D Kidding aside thanks for taking this project on for the .50 cal guys..
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Post by ET on Jul 3, 2011 5:45:46 GMT -5
I finally made it into PT load testing and found out there is more to it than meets the eye. Those that went before me sure have my admiration for the amount of work that requires dedication and focus just to do the traces with chronograph readings.
This particular load really impressed the heck out of me because I so easily found the right powder amount to start producing a good group of shots. Mind you it is not a fast load yet but has room for bumping the velocity even with just 4759. This will be one dynamite varmint load with higher velocities.
The interesting part is that my scope was never adjusted from my 250SST setting. It’s not a 200gr bullet load but you can bet somewhere down the road that will be tried with 200FTX.
At this point I’m not going to add any personal comments or observations until others have had a chance to review the traces.
Tar12
Nothing to really thank as I’m doing this as much for myself. I have a feeling another addiction is taking hold. ;D
Ed
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Post by mike.dawson on Jul 3, 2011 6:58:20 GMT -5
Ed, didnt I tell you those 225 shoot, they have always produced the best groups for me. Glad I could help you out getting those to you.
They really like speed as I have pushed them with 60-62 gr. N120 but I know you cant get 120 north of the border.
As far as a deer bullet at sml speeds, Hornady tech told me they were designed for 1600 fps and not 2600-2700 fps and at those speed they turn into a grenade
Mike
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Post by Dave W on Jul 3, 2011 8:01:39 GMT -5
Thanks Ed, still a few of us shooting the old tomato stakes, Nice to see some data! The 225 FTX came through quite well at 2700fps in the .45 at 200yds for the first harvest of the year, complete pass through with no large exit hole. Meh, so what if it was a groundhog. ;D ;D Thanks again for the testing and hope to see more when time and schedule permit!
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Post by ET on Jul 3, 2011 8:12:13 GMT -5
Mike
Without your help this tracing for 225FTX would not have been possible and you’re right about potential accuracy. Thanks again for your help. I will be almost content getting them easily to 2400fps but 2500fps with this load would be dynamite for varmints and off season shooting. Now if they could construct this bullet to handle more velocity on deer this would be an absolute all around winner. For now I’ll take this varmint and practice load anytime.
DW
You can bet there will eventually be more. I’m hoping to at least have 1-trace scheduled for each range outing. So far the OBT shows promise for narrowing down a load for accuracy but 1-test really isn’t proof. Just a good start. Ed
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Post by Jon on Jul 3, 2011 8:38:56 GMT -5
Ed. Great presentation and traces. And this is only the first one. I'm very impressed ;D. Jon
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jul 3, 2011 9:21:51 GMT -5
I havent tried the 225gr FTX with 4759 but i have used N110 with the HSB sabot in the NULA. IMO its a great fun load and is a cream puff to shoot upto at least 2300+ fps. (estimated) Ive only shot it at 100 yards or less but that is the extent of my "plinking" fun shooting atm. So it fits my purpose quite well at a lower cost than most tipped bullets. I have no doubt they are little grenades at these speeds. I had targets on a cardboard box and you could see signs of rapid expansion from just passing through two common pieces of cardboard.
4759 is at the top of my list for the next powder to try out. The previous owner thought very highly of it with similar bullet weights.
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nic58
8 Pointer
Posts: 237
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Post by nic58 on Jul 3, 2011 9:24:57 GMT -5
Ed, thanks for doing the .50 pressure traces as that is all I shoot. I enjoy reading about the .45's, but all that info doesn't really pertain to the beloved old .50!
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Post by tar12 on Jul 3, 2011 10:22:02 GMT -5
I am shooting the FTX 225 in my daughters .44 Rem Mag.Bug hole accuracy @ 100 yds. I have not heard one single complaint about accuracy with these bullets. In the 1700-1900 fps range this would make a killer light load for women/kids. My daughter loves it..
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Post by ET on Jul 3, 2011 10:52:05 GMT -5
Ed, thanks for doing the .50 pressure traces as that is all I shoot. I enjoy reading about the .45's, but all that info doesn't really pertain to the beloved old .50! Nic58 Thanks for the kind word but feel undeserving at the moment. The 50 is still my 1st love also and now a new door has opened for me to safely explore more potential. Here I have to respond to your comment about 45 data and not meant to be derogatory in any way but to open your thinking a little. Consider this; there is 10% difference in the diameter from the 50 to the 45. Now what if we find the pressure difference for a given load is roughly the same? Taking a given 45 load and knowing it is safe in a 45 will definitely have lower pressure in a 50. This would give a safe starting point in a 50 for anyone wanting to experiment. Even though my 1st love is the 50 I have no qualms about the 45 sitting beside the 50 for recognition. If anything by comparing gained knowledge between the two they may well assist each other in load development. Time and gained info will tell. Ed
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Post by deadeye on Jul 3, 2011 14:02:12 GMT -5
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Post by ET on Jul 3, 2011 15:35:28 GMT -5
Deadeye Thanks for providing the link and enjoyed the read. One of the reasons I felt the OBT concept had credence is due to the fact that sound energy wave travel is the basis for ultrasonic testing of metals that I periodically do. Also thickness measurement that can be accurate to .001” if the right velocity for the material is input to the equipment. Knowing the above I wasn’t sure if the velocity of sound travel in a chrome barrel would be close enough in a 416 SS barrel to produce the same accurate results. First go around seems to indicate it is close enough to be useful. After figuring out how to simply measure the location of the bullet base in the bore with muzzle loading to determine case length for the PT program it will be interesting to see how well OBT scores down the road. If it keeps holding reasonably true and I get the bullet exit point on a node for a given load then accuracy problem should lie elsewhere. Here I won’t be chasing different powder loads in a wild goose chase and focus elsewhere to improve a poor accuracy condition. Oh yeah there is an addiction for learning here and I feel the hook sinking in deeper. If the job situation continues in the direction it has been going there will be a QL program in my itching hands before Christmas. ;D Again Thanks for your response. Ed
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Post by Richard on Jul 3, 2011 17:00:59 GMT -5
ED.............Glad to see you are finally up and running! It looks like you got "stuff" together quicker than I did . For me, it was the wireless thing that gave me the most problems............along with converting the actual trace to a jpg ;D Good luck with it. Richard
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Post by DBinNY on Jul 3, 2011 19:52:32 GMT -5
Ed, I'm glad you finally got a chance to get out and shoot. Great results for the first go at it to boot! Looking forward to you future traces.
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Post by ET on Jul 3, 2011 20:30:32 GMT -5
Richard
Thanks for the well wish for future endeavors. Actually you, Edge and TGinPA made my transition into PT testing a lot easier. I avoided certain obstacles that made my life simpler. One of your conversations with RSI touched on using the “pause” control that helped avoid unwanted triggering of the PT unit. This way I could easily set my trigger level down to #2. If I didn’t use the pause control numerous unwanted flat line traces appeared. The only thing you didn’t mention was how the trace numbering appeared recording every second number. Then when you saved the file it would use the correct numerical numbering order.
The one thing I did learn and appreciate is the amount of work involved in acquiring traces with chronograph readings and then trying to produce a good presentation to the Board. I’m still working on organizing the presentation part.
Trust me when I say I am still getting familiar with the controls and options for the PT unit. Given a few more outings I will be better acquainted with the unit’s functions.
DBinNY
Yeah it was a relief to get out and see the PT unit function decently after sitting around for a few years. There will be more traces but not as quick as TG can provide. I definitely want to know this unit before agreeing to trying one of Wilmsmeyer’s load. Don’t think I want to repeat any of his load shots. Also this should give me a little time to put some extra padding on my past recoil pad. ;D
Ed
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Post by cfvickers on Jul 3, 2011 21:05:12 GMT -5
I have been shooting 46 grains of 4759 with that 225 FTX and it has been amazingly accurate. Not nearly that fast but at around 2350 I figured it was sufficient to do what I asked of it.
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Post by mike.dawson on Jul 4, 2011 12:00:48 GMT -5
I started shooting the 225 FTX over a year ago as a fun round to shoot, mild recoil and very accurate. If I remember, I had almost 3 in one hole at 100 yards, it is really too bad they were designed for 1600 fps and not 2600-2700 fps as they are far and away the most accurate bullet I have shot out of my Savage 50cal. Since they dont have wood chucks in florida i guess could shoot armadillos. Anyone have a recipe? I use the short black mmp and 60 gr. N120 and that gets them moving around 2550 fps. and beside that they cost around 25.00 for 100 bullets, cheap!
Mike
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nic58
8 Pointer
Posts: 237
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Post by nic58 on Jul 4, 2011 14:13:13 GMT -5
I guess when I said that the .45 traces don't really pertain to the .50 shooters, I was thinking mainly of the bullets used by both groups of shooters. Most shooting the .45's use 195 or 200 gr. bullets and the .50 crowd stays mainly within the 245-325 gr. bullets. But that being said, it seems as though the powders that work in the .50 also work well in the .45's. I read most of the threads about the .45 traces, but I'm excited about the .50 traces because I can directly relate to them being a .50 shooter. Thanks again Ed for taking the time to do all of this for the board. I know it's a ton of work!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 15:17:45 GMT -5
+1 here ET thanks again for getting set up and shooting the .50. I have two now and I'm having a .45 built . I agree with you on using .45 data for a safe starting point in .50 load development. Waiting for more traces...way to go!!! Greenhorn
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Dave1
8 Pointer
Posts: 131
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Post by Dave1 on Jul 4, 2011 16:34:05 GMT -5
Thanks to all who explore the safe limits and accuracy of each caliber. While I do enjoy reading the data and testing results for other calibers, duplex/triplex load testing, etc., I have a 50 cal rifle and shoot a single powder load (plastic jug 4759) for deer hunting so that is the kind of data that I look for and pay more attention to.
Thanks, Dave
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Post by cfvickers on Jul 4, 2011 16:40:59 GMT -5
I have several that I pulled out of my dirt mound at 100 yards after being fired at 2350fps and they held together and mushroomed extremely well. Retained weight was 202.4 grains. Granted this was a 1/2 inch plywood back board and dirt, but I still believe that it is fairly remarkable, having looked at the retained weight of several other types of bullets.
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Post by ET on Jul 5, 2011 20:48:31 GMT -5
Cfvickers
Basically 90% weight retention at 100yds using 2350fps even with your method of testing is interesting. With deer hunting a lot of shots are taken under 100yds and a 50yd test would be interesting. My basic bullet evaluation testing is done into a sand bank at 35yds. Eventually I would like to try this with the 225FTX at different velocities and see what develops. This is not considered an accurate testing method but does give a good indication of what to expect.
After some careful consideration and seen interest with 50Cal traces I now feel just displaying my interests would be kind of selfish and inconsiderate. For future testing I would like to keep it to 2-different tests per outing. One of my interest and one of interest to others. Because I’m new to this to start with the other load needs to be one already in use so no unexpected surprises. Also because of limited access to components in my neck of the woods I may need a little help in the bullet department if a specific load is to be tested.
Here a test outline/format needs to be agreed upon. Example: Is the test regulated to one specific powder load say 4-5 shots? Do we want to see a short string of a specific load say with 1 or 2 grains difference in either direction? My only rule I will currently adhere too is if the load exceeds 42K I STOP. So any suggestions?
Right now the weather is hot so my next outing needs to come across a reasonable cooler day and of course time from work is available. If a test is agreed upon I can’t promise when the next time frame occurs but eventually the test will be done at the next earliest opportunity.
Wilmsmeyer I will agree to test your load but that one I want to wait just a bit to wear a jacket for additional padding. I can take A hard hit but numerous hard hits this almost 58-year old body may not enjoy. ;D
Ed
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Post by cfvickers on Jul 5, 2011 21:39:18 GMT -5
I may be able to conjure up a few test rounds in the next couple weeks. I will use your data and go up to 49 grains of 4 759, dig each out before firing the next to ensure I get the right ones. I was not real sure how high I could go with that bullet and powder charge, so I kept it where I knew it would stay well within standards. Glad you did the test, I use a different sabot than most that will probably reduce pressures a hair but it works for me so I use it.
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Post by ET on Jul 5, 2011 22:16:49 GMT -5
Cfvickers
I would enjoy seeing your results. Keep in mind I’m using a recessed BP (1/2” deep and 5/16” dia.) and you may have to alter a grain or 2 to match the OBT node. Here too your results may reflect how much difference there is with using a recessed BP. Listing pertinent info is something I need to work on. Eventually I will get another BP unmodified and redo a few tests.
Barely breaking 30K with my trace results here I feel I could go another 5 grains of 4759 and still stay under 40K pressure. But that’s for another time.
Ed
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Post by cfvickers on Jul 5, 2011 22:23:38 GMT -5
Would the recessed BP add or reduce pressure you think?
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Post by ET on Jul 5, 2011 22:49:15 GMT -5
Would the recessed BP add or reduce pressure you think? I'm inclined to believe at the moment that it adds additional pressure because of the slight increase in velocity. Ed
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Post by cfvickers on Jul 5, 2011 23:01:19 GMT -5
OK, I am not too aweful worried about how much velocity I get, I will fire a few through a chrony to give accurate info on that. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't getting my pressures too high by increasing the charge. When it comes to modern rifle rounds, I know where I can increase or decrease without hurting anything, but I trust book loads and pressure traces from you guys to figure these. With this one I just went with a close to max standard 250 grain load, the velocity was satisfactory for me and the accuracy I would call phenomenal so I just stayed right there. My first three shot group was a real pretty ragged triangular hole, on average there is a very slight bit of paper separating that nearly always perfectly triangular group. I like these bullets, and I have only killed 2 white tails over 200 pounds in my parts so it should be perfectly sufficient out to 150 yards.
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Post by ET on Jul 6, 2011 5:23:59 GMT -5
Cfvickers
I can appreciate your apprehension as I too held some before seeing trace results. I lost my version of “Shoot” when my previous computer took a nose dive one morning. But before it did I ran some velocity numbers for the 225FTX through it and it showed with 2400fps that there was more than sufficient ft/lbs to even kill deer out to 200yds.
At this point in time I do feel quite comfortable of using a load repeatedly with pressure less than 37K and would like to see a minimum of 30K. This may change slightly as more info is collected.
Ed
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Post by stubblejumper on Jul 6, 2011 23:01:46 GMT -5
Ed
Thank you for doing some 50 cal stuff, I look forward to more results. If I can offer some supplies pm me as I am in Canada as well and will send you whatever I have that will help.
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Post by ET on Jul 7, 2011 22:45:03 GMT -5
Stubblejumper.
Thanks for your offer to help. A load for testing in round 2 is 250gr bullet using H4198. This is more meant for say someone using a 250xtp or 250gr copper bullet that wants higher velocities in this bullet weight range. RB did some previous testing here and I would like to see if I get the same results. Also I too plan to do a comparison load test of the old 4759 and the new version of 4759 because I really want to see the difference when shot in a 50.
This PT testing has a learning curve all of its own but some info already surfacing is proving interesting and draws a curious person to look a little deeper. Example: One other test I did was using 200grXTP & 200grXPB that I will present soon. Here pressures were so close you probably wouldn’t know which traces belonged to what bullet. If the pressure test with the 250gr bullets (copper jacket/lead and all copper) show the same results then using either or type of bullet for a given load could be considered comparable for pressure results. I just got to know. ;D
Ed
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