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Post by edge on Mar 29, 2011 19:45:43 GMT -5
Need tips on stock design that lends itself to staying on target! I have stated repeatedly that as a lifelong shotgun shooter I do everything BUT squeeze the trigger! I can live with not being a trigger squeezer, but I need help staying on target AFTER the trigger breaks! If the trigger breaks and the stars align I hit the target where I should. If the trigger does not break I yank and the rifle almost always goes high and right...always! Tonight I had two loads and three sabots to test. All 8mm 200grain SMK's First design was in two materials PVC-1 and PVC-II Third Sabot was an old design PVC-II which I hunted with this year. The problem was I had not shot in a while so I oiled the bore with Rustlick and when I cleaned it it probably seeped into the BP and first caused a complete misfire and then a hang-fire. Now a hang-fire is about the worst thing for me since I can't stay on target after the shot...forget it it ain't happening I can live with a misfire since it won't wound a deer, but a hang-fire while hunting probably means a wounded deer! I use a regular Savage Tupperware stock. I like it but probably need to modify the grip area to weld my hand to the stock...or something ?? I think that I need an adjustable cheek support since I barely touch the stock with my face. I am thinking of a more straight pistol grip and wondered if others have used stocks like that?? Thought and pictures are appreciated. edge. This is what I mean by a straight pistol grip: My load is probably NOT safe in your rifle!
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Mar 29, 2011 20:54:04 GMT -5
the short answer here is I think you will need to learn to squeeze.
Are you recoil shy? If so, does the "yank" make the kick easier to deal with because it hits you when you expect it?
I am no expert but I would practice this "art" with a .22 that has a good trigger.
Better yet...use reduced loads in your smokeless and get used to the break.
I used to be a big time yanker and now am a big time squeezer and there is no doubt that it helps with accuracy.
When ever you yank the trigger, there is no good way from a bench rest standpoint to consistently stay on target...IMO
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Post by edge on Mar 29, 2011 21:06:36 GMT -5
This is a heavy rifle and not much recoil. Just too used to shotgun hunting where when the shot presents itself there is no time to squeeze. Rabbits, birds and driven deer don't sit still enough to let you get ready. No excuse, but at my age I am probably not going to change my trigger habits The grip or stock style I'd be willing to test, but I'll never be a good bench shooter...I've resigned myself to that long ago. Offhand shooting is about the same too UP and Right almost every time if I don't have a rest. edge.
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Post by rossman40 on Mar 29, 2011 23:05:19 GMT -5
If you look at your groups you have more horizontal then vertical spread. So you need to look at how you handle the recoil, your doing pretty good now but when you start shooting square or circular groups then your in the groove. Right now your groups are 1/2" tall and 1" wide. Some of that can even be the wind so your not doing too bad at all. As far as stocks a pistol grip helps with controlling cant but on the bench I often see guys try to take the recoil with the right hand instead of the buttstock. I like more of a flat or sandbag "ski" at the rear with a short rabbit ear bag.
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Post by youp50 on Mar 30, 2011 3:56:46 GMT -5
Just an assumption... Your hang fire appears to be about 3.18 inches from your aiming point. That is not very far out of the 6 inch diameter that is repeated as the kill zone for a whitetail deer.
My personal observation is I have benefited from checkering a laminated after market stock. I was also able to form the cheek piece to do what I wanted. I did not have too little contact with the cheek piece, though. I would think a higher end after market stock maker could be enticed into leaving additional material in that area for you to fit it to your desire.
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Post by edge on Mar 30, 2011 5:51:31 GMT -5
Horizontal is ALL me Until it warms up I am shooting in an underground tunnel so I can't blame the wind ;D ;D Pulling Right is what I do. Some is just "sight wobble". I don't hold the fore end, but in the field I don't either. Depending on the situation the forearm rests on my hand or I slightly push into a bi-pod, but Unless I get caught with my pants down and am forced to shoot offhand I am never gripping the fore end. I used to be worse, but I put my thumb on the Tang and that has reduced the left-right a lot....hard to believe I know ;D Perhaps going to a heavier trigger for a while so the light trigger will be more of a surprise?? I've thought of a "palm swell" but that would seem to get my hand going to the right even more...but maybe not. I can certainly flatten the bottom of the forearm but I think that most of the problem is in my grip and about 99% is between my ears edge.
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Dave1
8 Pointer
Posts: 131
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Post by Dave1 on Mar 30, 2011 6:32:00 GMT -5
Your body, ears, and mind, does not like violent and loud explosions with painful hammering recoil. The natural reaction to such is a flinch. Try to increase your shooting comfort by adding a good recoil absorbing pad to your gun and buy/use the best silencing ear muffs you can find. Forget the ear plugs. The silencing ear muffs quieten all noises around you as well as greatly reducing the shot noise and they have a calming effect.
Practice often with a small caliber rifle such as a 22. Just before each shot, take a minute or so to allow heart rate and breathing to slow then execute a smooth trigger pull. Concentrate on keeping the cross hair precisely on the target center before, during, and after the shot. Follow thru after the shot is important in developing good shooting control and habits. Dry fire practice at home helps also.
Hope this helps.
Dave
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Post by mike.dawson on Mar 30, 2011 6:38:32 GMT -5
I have a Savage 17hmr with the accu trigger and during the summer here in florida this is what I shoot at the range. I have adjusted both triggers so they break nearly at the same pressure. No recoil to speak of and shells are cheap and I shoot this rifle all summer long, This has helped me in shooting the 50cal.
Mike
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Post by spoonover on Mar 30, 2011 7:09:54 GMT -5
Dry fire at your target, than have someone load your primer. Have them trick you with a spent primer every now and than. When the rifle does not fire you will find out you are anticipating your shot, sight picture will be the same as dry fire you are working on. This is the best way to break the bad habit of anticipating your shot. I must say this will hurt your pride, look what we spend for a more accurate rifle!
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Post by edge on Mar 30, 2011 7:47:00 GMT -5
No pride here, I have poor technique! Perhaps I should practice with a rest that holds the the rifle on target?? Maybe if I am not timing the crosshairs on the bull there would be no need to "time / anticipate" the shot. Follow through...what the heck is that ;D ;D Nope, the rifle is not on target after the trigger pull...wel perhaps it is on the target of the guy to my right...but definitely not on mine edge.
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Post by rangeball on Mar 30, 2011 8:40:55 GMT -5
One thing we did in the military to learn the squeeze was to have someone (buddy system) balance a coin on the end of the barrel then dry fire. Over time you learn to squeeze without the coin falling off.
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Post by olsmokey on Mar 30, 2011 9:03:32 GMT -5
When I first started hunting with a muzzleloader I used a Kentucky longrifle in flintlock. Did all my practicing shooting offhand never shot with a rest. This was probably the best training I could have gotten. I still have that rifle hanging over the fireplace. I just pretend I'm still shooting it when I shoot now. Even a percussion rifle will train you for trigger pull and hold on target. If you still have one dig it out and spend some time with the good old days. 90% mental 10% physical. Once you get your ''groove'' back it will become natural behavior. Have some fun doing it. good luck Dave
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Post by dans on Mar 31, 2011 9:25:26 GMT -5
Edge one of the mods I like to the tupperware stock is to add a kickezz cheek protector to the comb. I use the 3/4 inch one. If you are barely touching the comb of the stock and not gripping the fore end then the rifle is free to jump up and hit you in the cheek and you get the resultant high right impact. I can yank the trigger with the best of them and this mod has helped me. Another thing I do is spend a lot of trigger time shooting a Savage .22 set up similarly to my ML. The more I shoot the better I get.
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Post by edge on Mar 31, 2011 10:38:49 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the suggestions.
Plenty to think about for my next range visit.
edge.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2011 10:39:15 GMT -5
Edge, When I first got my savage I had to get used to the trigger pull, I was used to my Browning bar. It seemed to have creep before finally going off, anyway I try to picture in my mind to pull the trigger straight back parallel with the barrel. I have to TIME my crosshairs to target. I try to time it staying on the vertical line of the recticul. It also seems to help me when I shoulder the gun tight into my shoulder and try to pull straight back without any torque from my right hand. I'm sure what works for me might not work for others,everybody is different,I think that is the core of this board . I'm a novice but the picturing in my mind of pulling straight back cured my jerking off,lol. My 2 cents hope it makes sense 2u, Greenhorn
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Post by edge on Apr 1, 2011 22:14:56 GMT -5
I went to the range today with a rest that cradles the rifle front and back. OK results, BUT I do have some parallax in my Bushy 3200 that was noticeable! I'd say 1/2 - 3/4 inch at 100 yards as I moved my head around which was a bit surprising to me. I tried some nylon sabots and while the group looks really bad I think I will try a more modest load before I give up on them. Pros: slightly cheaper , a bit lighter and they won't rust my barrel if I don't clean and oil. Cons: a little slower machining time, and MUCH harder to debur. edge.
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Post by jims on Apr 2, 2011 7:58:43 GMT -5
There is certainly nothing wrong with that top group and you may get that new sabot working also.
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Post by Jon on Apr 2, 2011 12:28:13 GMT -5
Edge. I think I live close enough to you that if you are interested I have a dft leadsled that you are more than welcome to try if you think it would be any help. I have a dangerous game rest that I still have to put together That is all I will be able to use for atleast this year. I barely drive or I would bring it to you. Jon
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Post by edge on Apr 2, 2011 14:10:49 GMT -5
Thanks, I appreciate the offer but I don't think that I want a fixed rest. I can't use it hunting so I'll live with what I can use.
I did find that I definitely need a cheek pad, especially with the parallax issue.
edge.
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Post by jims on Apr 2, 2011 16:09:51 GMT -5
I think Beartooth makes a decent cheek pad as I recall.
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Post by dave d. on Apr 2, 2011 21:45:40 GMT -5
:)bud that top group is very nice.looks like you and gun are doing well.goodluck with future range sessions.
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Post by dannoboone on Apr 3, 2011 21:08:23 GMT -5
Thanks, I appreciate the offer but I don't think that I want a fixed rest. I can't use it hunting so I'll live with what I can use. I did find that I definitely need a cheek pad, especially with the parallax issue. edge. Perhaps I should practice with a rest that holds the the rifle on target?? Maybe if I am not timing the crosshairs on the bull there would be no need to "time / anticipate" the shot. [edge. Got me confused. (Not hard!) Which do you want to do......find out what your sabots will do.....or.....practice?? Mighty is the man who can do both at once!! For this mere mortal, when wanting to see what a new load/ sabot/rifle is capable of doing, I use a Zero Kick Shooting Rest, which has both vertical and horizontal adjustments. That takes over 90% of my human factor out of the equation. From a "flyer" every 3-5 three shot groups to only one or two in a whole day's shooting is quite an improvement. Once a load is worked out, then, and only then, comes the practice. After that, an "unexplained flyer" can only be blamed on the shooter. As for the parallax issue, an AO scope works wonders. Good luck with your sabot work ups!
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Post by Rifleman on Apr 4, 2011 5:49:45 GMT -5
Mark- we have discussed the problem with trigger control before, but for what it is worth, here is a tip- get the grip pressure right before you shoot. On other words grip the stock with the trigger hand hard until you detect shake with a firm straight back pull to the rear, relax the grip until the shake goes away. Then you have a very firm grip on the rifle, no concentrate on a slow straight back pull, the tightness of the rest of the shooting hand prevents any sympathetic movement of the the rest of the hand. You can get a controlled trigger break this way. Reader Digest version
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Post by ozark on Apr 4, 2011 11:23:15 GMT -5
Many good suggestions here. Your are dealing with a failure to follow through. What you are seeking is a cure. First, I want to say I totally agree with The Rifleman regarding the firm but not overdoing the trigger hand grip. I would make sure that your trigger has no overtravel and stops immediately after break. Next, I suspect you have extremely fast reflexes. If so, you could be reacting instantly to the sound and recoil. Fire a few shots with your eyes closed and concentrate on what your body is reacting to. Quick refleses could be triggered by you eyes. With all the suggestions you have you may decide that shooting well isn't that important to you. LOL
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Post by edge on Apr 4, 2011 12:09:26 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the suggestions. In the field and in a good solid position this is not really an issue since I rarely shoot at game that is moving quickly. When I do it is at relatively close range. If I don't try for a super small group I actually find that I stay on target after the shot, but when timing the crosshairs I am a yanking machine I am going to practice with my HandiRifle and its immovable trigger. If I can stay until it breaks I have no choice but to follow through....even though it may not happen when I want it too! edge.
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Post by Rifleman on Apr 4, 2011 12:34:48 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]If I don't try for a super small group I actually find that I stay on target after the shot, but when timing the crosshairs I am a yanking machine [/glow]
This indicates to me that you might benefit from a better understanding of "wobble area" is and how it correlates to a good shot. It is counter intuitive, but your a smart guy and once you get your mind around the pretext, no doubt it will sell you on the premise. Once that happens there will not be the intellectual reservation that will hinder progress as you strive to perfect it and establish the proper muscle memory. So now that I have explained the related mental mumbo jumbo, I will let Mr Ozark explain wobble area as it relates to offhand or unsupported shooting and trigger control, if he so desires.
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Post by bigmoose on Apr 4, 2011 13:44:21 GMT -5
IMHO I think most folks over think shooting especilly in regards to recoil, if you pull your rifle firm against your shoulder, all it can do is make a loud noise and push. The proof is when shoot at game, does anyone remember the rifle recoiling. In the Army you would get recruits to get a sight picture squeeze the trigger, with them not knowing the rifle wasn't loader. Some folks flinched just squeezing the trigger, and the M1 was a pussycat to shoot. I seem to remember you posting some super groups. All the while saying you were not a bench shooter, go back to that form, and send my those old targets so I can post them , to prove I'm a bench shooter. Its strange giving advice to someone I bug constantly, looking for advice.
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Post by ozark on Apr 4, 2011 14:43:01 GMT -5
I will tackle explaining the wobble area and suggest a way to decrease its size. While holding a rife or pistol as steady as possible while aiming at a target or animal part without using a rest of any sort the sight picture will not stay rock solid. The shooter will observe that sight picture is moving about. It will be dead on for an instant and then move away in some direction or another. The area the sight picture move within is the wobble area. As a rule a shooter cannot shoot a group smaller than their individual wobble area. There are several methods of decreasing the size of your wobble area but it requires some effort and training. First learning how to hold the rifle, stance, breathing and concentrating can help. Dry firing an hour or so daily while holding the rifle correctly builds up the correct muscles and the wobble area decreases in size. I need to emphasize here that getting a natural point of aim is essential. Above I mentioned that as a rule you cannot shoot groups smaller than your wobble area. With much work of body stance, mussel training, proper holding and cheeking the rifle one can discover the pattern of their wobble area. In my case the sight picture enters the bullseye at seven O:Clock. works across the bullseye to go out at two. It then wanders around toward six and out before heading back to the seven O:Clock entry. Since I know the pattern I can increase pressure on the trigger as it enters. Resist the urge to yank it while everything is pretty. If it doesn't go off wait until it makes its round and starts in again. In this manner you can cheat on the wobble area a bit. I will stop here as this hopefully explains the wobble area. If some wants more on how to hold the rifle, how to position the body and become a good offhand shooter between The Rifleman and I we can guide you along. But, there is work to do and we can't do that for you. A couple of years ago Rifleman wrote an excellent lesson on offhand shooting. It may be in the hints and tips. It was reading his post back then that made me know he was the real McCoy. I knew he had been there. Edge this wasn't meant for you in particular. I just hope it helps many.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Apr 4, 2011 18:12:44 GMT -5
I suggest not giving up your field techniques of timing the shot at game. I do it too...slap the trigger when it looks good and it doesn't let me down on deer at reasonable ranges. However, when shooting woodchucks with a .243 at 300+ it's squeeze....
The good trigger control will help you when shooting from the bench and once you get comfortable with doing that you can really begin to benchmark loads.
Don't give me that crap about being too old....you're also too smart to fall for that. Make it a project to master good triggering at range time and it will put a smile on your face. You can do it
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Post by ozark on Apr 4, 2011 18:49:46 GMT -5
I am not a believer that trigger action is to constantly and continually apply pressure on the trigger until the hammer falls. I mash the trigger directly to the rear and while hunting you can mash it fast or slow. With that said, I believe it best to learn the basic fundamentals of shooting and then modify them to match your individual needs. I am now shooting pool from a power chair and doing fairly well. But I have had to make many modifications to my stance etc. One reason I am such a believer in applying the basics is because they were ingrained in me years ago. Now at 83 I can stand up from my power chair and still shoot well offhand at targets or game. Me and my pellet gun are Startlings worst nightmare around here. Shooting is fun at all ages that I have lived through.
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