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Post by ozark on Mar 8, 2011 17:08:39 GMT -5
I have been perhaps confused for a long time concerning prayers that seem to me to be selfish. I pray that Gods will be done and that I am provided the strength and courage to accept His decision. None of us can see a loved one suffer or die without being tempted to ask GOD to spare us this hurt. But IMO what God has Willed to occur will be. I believe that God holds the controls and the best we can hope for is to accept his Will and that He knows best. My heart goes out to those who are suffering or having to watch loved ones suffer. But the best I can do in my opinion is to accept that it is what God decrees and my desires are to turn it over to Him. I am a praying man but may have a weird way of looking at it. Your opinion will be respected by me whether we agree or disagree. Ben
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Post by cfvickers on Mar 8, 2011 17:51:55 GMT -5
I am torn in this area. I don't think it is right really to pray for my own health and well being, but I do not hesitate to pray for that of others. Honestly I don't know which way is right but if prayers were never answered and God is already going to do what he is going to do regardless what we pray, then why pray at all. Christ regularly healed those who were sick, blind dying and even dead. Also every preacher I have ever encountered personally, encouraged others to pray for the health or healing of others, so I do. I have had the same question many times though. I don't know which is right but I don't think God is going to fault one for praying for others. When praying for myself I only ask for forgiveness, the wisdom to react the right way to whatever happens to be my situation, and the strength to follow through with His will. In my case I have no issues with praying or asking others to pray for the health of my loved ones, But for me I would only ask someone to pray for the above, because I would feel selfish praying for my own health. I have been blessed and even right at 34 years old, if the lord desires to take me today my only prayer is that my children are well cared for and loved in my absence. Maybe my way is a bit selfish, but I would pray the same for anyone who asked for it, and from the bottom of my heart. I think that is at least an act of unselfishness. That said, praying for the lords will to be done is one thing that absolutely can not be wrong, but with the same logic the lords will is going to be done regardless. Good discussion topic. I will be interested in hearing the opinion of others. I do believe though that praying for the well being of others is an act of love and kindness and therefore I do so. We are not meant to know all until we get to heaven, and by then our work here is done but we will all know soon enough. It is what is in your heart that matters. If you mean well toward those you are directing your prayer, it can never be considered selfish.
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Post by cfvickers on Mar 8, 2011 18:01:16 GMT -5
I also believe that there is a constant battle with satan and granted, God is surely one step ahead, but his battle plan would have to be ever evolving.
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Post by adk on Mar 8, 2011 18:22:47 GMT -5
I think Cfvickers has stated more eloquently than I can the very essence of why I pray. I would only add that I also pray to thank God for the good grace and blessings which he has bestowed upon myself ,my family and others. I also pray for God to continue to bestow his good grace and blessings as he sees fit.
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Post by ozark on Mar 8, 2011 18:56:19 GMT -5
In the book of James we find where it is said that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. There is bible supporting prayers and also the Lords prayer that ask that His will be done. It may be his will that we pray and hope for His intervention. Ben
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Post by ET on Mar 8, 2011 19:29:24 GMT -5
This is an excellent topic. What is prayer? To me this represents my desire to have a close relationship of communicating with God. Here I convey my concerns, needs, ask for guidance, ask for forgiveness and express my gratitude for what He has done. But this is not limited to revolving around me.
Jesus Himself set examples for praying and what to pray for. He also prayed for himself before His capture and crucifiction.
As prayer is a personal relationship of communicating with God I’m not aware of an exact procedure as how one must pray, yes guidelines were given. For me it is opening my heart and feelings when communicating with God.
Ed
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Mar 8, 2011 21:34:57 GMT -5
For me the hardest prayer to learn was "Thy will be done" because I wanted my mother to live for my own selfish reason's.. But I learned to pray that way. Prayer is a personal thing between each and their savior. Every morning I pray. and several time's through the day.. I thank God for everything ...everything... drop
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Post by cfvickers on Mar 8, 2011 23:29:47 GMT -5
I also thank God daily for the blessings and the turmoil in my life. I know that when I have hardship, there is a lesson to be learned. I was thinking of what I will ask the Lord for. It was probably wrong of me not to mention giving thanks for his blessings. I know this, even in the hardest times, He has provided.
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Post by stubblejumper on Mar 9, 2011 0:29:19 GMT -5
I think that the act of praying is itself one of the greatest benefits we have as children of God. God wants us to pour out our hearts in adoration, confession, thanksgiving and in making our requests known. I think we view prayer as a means to an end, instead we should see it more as the end itself. What a priviledge to be able to talk to the limitless creator of the universe!
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Post by 153 on Mar 16, 2011 12:07:51 GMT -5
ozark, I believe God gave us free will to pray or not to pray, to do right or wrong. I also believe he already knows the game plan but because God gave us free will it is still up to us. I am much like you now as I pray more for other people. Most of my prayer for me are being thankful for what I have been blessed with. My daughter is between jobs now and I have no control over that so I just lift my hands to God and ask him to take over this as we are told in the Bible. In my younger days I did pray for worldly things but as I have found my faith I now just give thanks and pray for guidance for myself.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Mar 16, 2011 19:16:41 GMT -5
This is a very interesting topic. I usually shy away from this forum because I believe religion is very very personal. I shy away from telling someone here that "I pray for them".
I want the best for everyone. I don't want anyone to suffer. I don't want anyone to not have a good outcome to a situation.
Many times people pray for the best and the worst happens and call it God's will. Then they pray and pray and get a great outcome and thank everyone for prayers that surely made a difference.
It seems that the grey area is very grey. If it works we call it good...if it "fails" we call it good.
I just hope for the best for everyone. It will or won't work out for your hopes.
I wrote once on this forum that my elderly neighbor said she would pray for me that I got over a bad sinus infection. She is very openly religious and uses God in many conversations. I wondered that day if she was worried that the person who looked after her would not look after her anymore....I did much for her...groceries, garbage, air conditioners, talks...whatever she needed.
Like I said, it's all very personal. Whatever works for you. Religion provides many comforts and also poses many questions. Everyone has a slightly different interpretation....it's not like math or science.
I have my own things that are tough right now and I will continue to handle them as best I can.....doing everything that I feel is right. Spent 3 days/nights in I.C.U. this week....more to come....with a girlfriend who fell on the ice....is in terrible back/leg pain and some complications have developed with internal bleeding. This is out of my hands and it is tough...since I was the one who let go of her hand right before she slipped.
We are both in early 40's so it seems way to early to consider "bad" things. But things happen...accidents happen..and I don't think God made it that way or it wouldn't have happened......Why would he let that happen and then say "OK" cause you prayed I will make this turn out right.
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Post by deadon on Mar 16, 2011 19:29:03 GMT -5
Praying for you and your friend Sir, Rusty
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Post by deadon on Mar 16, 2011 19:35:15 GMT -5
I am a pretty simple man. God can turn this lap top into a hockey puck if he wants to, he can do all things. The bible says ask and ye shall receive,therefore if I ask and do not receive, it is because God does not want to do it, period IMHO, Rusty
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 16, 2011 20:25:50 GMT -5
In our contemporary North American culture, suffering is considered a very negative aspect of life but in some other cultures around the world and also that of the middle east during the time of Jesus, the phenomenon of pain and suffering was considered to be a very normal part of existence. The Apostle Paul even said that he rejoiced in his persecutions and tribulations.
God welcomes our prayers and even expects us to pray as when we pray we are enhancing our relationship with Him. James, the natural half brother of Jesus, wrote that we should go boldly toward the throne of God with our petitions as we are the children of God.
As a parent and now a grandparent I can say that I love it when my children come to me to ask me things. I love to spoil my grandchildren and even delight when they ask me if I can do something for them. However there are certainly limits on what I will and can do for them and sometimes they must suffer the consequences of life before they can truly learn from their experiences.
All of my petitions to God will not be granted to me in the way that I would want. Even so, I know that God still wants me to communicate with Him and as my prayer life becomes a central part of my whole life I am comforted to know that God is with me even when He does not grant all of my requests. In fact, I find that as I mature as a Child of God that my prayers tend less to be requests to God but more of a praising of Him for who He is and what he has already done for me. There is nothing that is off limits to pray for but there are some things that God in His wisdom will deny us only because His will is that of goodness and mercy.
Doug
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Post by deadon on Mar 16, 2011 20:31:23 GMT -5
In our contemporary North American culture, suffering is considered a very negative aspect of life but in some other cultures around the world and also that of the middle east during the time of Jesus, the phenomenon of pain and suffering was considered to be a very normal part of existence. The Apostle Paul even said that he rejoiced in his persecutions and tribulations. God welcomes our prayers and even expects us to pray as when we pray we are enhancing our relationship with Him. James, the natural half brother of Jesus, wrote that we should go boldly toward the throne of God with our petitions as we are the children of God. As a parent and now a grandparent I can say that I love it when my children come to me to ask me things. I love to spoil my grandchildren and even delight when they ask me if I can do something for them. However there are certainly limits on what I will and can do for them and sometimes they must suffer the consequences of life before they can truly learn from their experiences. All of my petitions to God will not be granted to me in the way that I would want. Even so, I know that God still wants me to communicate with Him and as my prayer life becomes a central part of my whole life I am comforted to know that God is with me even when He does not grant all of my requests. In fact, I find that as I mature as a Child of God that my prayers tend less to be requests to God but more of a praising of Him for who He is and what he has already done for me. There is nothing that is off limits to pray for but there are some things that God in His wisdom will deny us only because His will is that of goodness and mercy. Doug I hoped you would chime in and I am so thankful you are my friend, Rusty
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Post by stubblejumper on Mar 16, 2011 21:27:05 GMT -5
Doug
Your way with words is a gift. Exactly what I was trying to say but much more clearly stated. Prayer should not be a last resort, or "call 911" part of our lives but a daily communion with our creator. Requests and petitions are definitely not wrong (James says that we have not because we ask not) but they should be only a part of our prayer life.
God desires our praise, gratitude and confessions as well. Prayer is its own reward. We take for granted the awesome gift of being able to talk to the one who spoke the universe into existance. It's too bad that our culture, myself included, too often views prayer as simply asking without the balance of praise, thanksgiving and just plain talking at times.
We love to have our children ask for things but what if that was the only time they ever talked to us? Too often I treat God like a "genie in a lamp" instead of a loving father.
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Post by ozark on Mar 17, 2011 3:00:36 GMT -5
I liked many responses and expecially Wilmsmeyer's. I have recentely lost my wife and the hurt is difficult to bear. I prayed that God's will be done understanding that she wasn't mine but belonged to God. If taking her was his will it is not easy to sincerly love or thank him. I recently ask if we would recognize each other in heaven. If not how can I not be disappointed. I try to understand Gods purpose in permitting us to suffer sickness, see our loved ones suffer and die. We are supposed to Love God with all our hearts and sole. It is sometimes hard to do when he permits so many problems. I wont let a child of mine suffer if I can permit it. God lets his children suffer as a common act. I try to pray and accept that Gods will be done. It will whether I pray or don't. If you read this and feel I need councling and you feel you are qualified to do that then welcome. I promise I will not be argumentive. Ben with a broken heart.
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Post by petev on Mar 17, 2011 9:34:11 GMT -5
I believe that we can pray for whatever we want. Then it is in God's hands. I also believe that if you feel that God helped you, that it is then necessary to both spread the good deeds and love, and to give credit to God for his help. I also think that we have to understand that God answers prayers in his way- "God works in mysterious ways", and that we can be surprised or momentarily confused or disappointed by his answers. That's where it was beautiful when Christ said in prayer, I think in Gethseminie, "Lord pass this cup from me, but not as I will, but as you will". He prayed for what he wanted, but trusted the Lord to do it his way. By communicating with the Lord, only good can come from it, IMO. Pete
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Post by stubblejumper on Mar 17, 2011 16:04:36 GMT -5
Ben
I am in no way qualified to judge you or provide councel but I will pray for your broken heart.
This is not our final home: we look forward to a place where ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” Rev21:4-5
In the mean time we are stuck in this fallen world with very tough trials and questions as we often wrestle with God's will and what he permits to happen. You are simply an honest man with honest questions. Hang in there Sir.
Ed
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 17, 2011 20:44:11 GMT -5
Ben.....what you are feeling is real and normal. When two become one flesh and one partner dies the other partner is of course confused and heartbroken. There are so many unanswered questions that roll around in your head with no apparent relief. Anger, confusion, sadness, numbness, among many other emotions will fluctuate uncontrollably though your countenance as you scramble to make sense of it. As crazy as it all sounds this is a normal reaction of bereavement.
This is not a time to be alone. Surround yourself with loved ones and make contact with them often. Freely express your love and appreciation for them. As you know, life is short and there is not unlimited time to show your love for others. Accept invitations for dinner or social get togethers. DO NOT isolate yourself at this time.
For some reason that God only knows, talking about your feelings is very therapeutic. Talk about your loss and your feelings. Others who love you will listen because they care and some of them are hurting also. Keep your wife alive in your heart and the hearts of others by talking about her often. There is nothing wrong with laughing about old times that you had together.
Ben, there is no handbook to read that can help you through this heartbreaking time. Each bereaving person has to find his own way but they must do it in an active manner. Isolation will surely bring you to an early grave and there is too much life left within you for that. Angel does not want that for you. You can make it through this with a greater appreciation for every breath that you take but it is going to require that you surrender to the grace of God and the love of his children.
I am praying for you Ben and I mean that.
Doug
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Mar 18, 2011 10:16:34 GMT -5
I struggle with the concept of God's will. If someone decides to go against all advice and not socialize during tough times...purposely isolate themselves...and then suffer the consequences of such actions, can it be said then that God's will was for that to happen too?
If everything is God's will, does that mean everything that ever happens is OK? A murderer should be let go? a Terrorist shouldn't be hunted? A person lacking of faith is justified? Someone who has given their life to helping others get's sick and dies a slow horrible death is God's will? A murderer who never gets caught and live a healthy, long life and die peacefully in his sleep is God's will?
I know I ask too many questions and provide no answers....because I have none. And I mean it when I say I mean no offence by my questions and respect all of your opinions.
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Post by ozark on Mar 18, 2011 11:37:50 GMT -5
Wilms, I have to answer all your questions with three words: "I DON'T KNOW.'
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 18, 2011 15:11:26 GMT -5
Where does God come from? How long is eternity? Don't all things have a beginning and an end? If the universe is limited then what is on the other side of the universe and what is on the other side of that and where does it all end???
We can't expect to even be capable of understanding all the natural mysteries of the universe much less mysteries which are spiritual in nature. However, I believe there is a conflict here between God's desire and God's ordinance. We are lumping it all together under the heading of God's will.
In a certain sense nothing can occur outside of the ordinance of God since God is in constant control of every electron that revolves around every nucleus of every cell in the universe. So, in a certain sense, we can say that it is God's will that a baby be born with two heads or that a very good and sincere person would painfully suffer with cancer. God allows such things as a consequence of the corrupt condition of all of nature as evidenced by earthquakes and natural disasters. Can we really say that this is God's will? Depends doesn't it?
Based on my own experiences in life and also that of the experience of others in combination with what the Holy Scriptures say on this subject, I believe that we as followers of Christ must expect to endure such hardships and be ready to suffer for Jesus. This, of course separates the men from the boys or as scripture relates.....goats from the sheep....or wheat from the tares. Should we only expect to receive the good things in life then turn around and curse God who gave us life..... because we are in discomfort?
As said before.....it is mostly us 21st century Americans who struggle with such questions as those in other cultures seem to have a handle on it. Even the Hindus and Buddhist seem to understand that pain and suffering is a part of life that leads to the development of endurance and eventually leads to peace. A real foreign concept for us to grasp.
The Holy Scriptures tell us that they who endure until the end will be with God. Even though we all have rebelled against God in a big way, it is God's saving grace that provides the spiritual power to endure until the end. It is not our own work. It requires submission to the Holy Spirit. So then yes........for he that does his own bidding instead of following the influence of the Spirit.....in a certain sense it is God's will that they suffer the consequences of their actions.
In another sense, it is not God's desire that any man should perish but that all should come to repentance and become a cherished child of God. Let he who has ears......let him hear.
Doug
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Mar 18, 2011 20:52:32 GMT -5
Doug,
You do have a way with words and perspectives without simply throwing the bible at everything. What I mean is that you can try and explain things without simply repeating a scripture.
This is the type of reasoning that I am usually open to....an interpretation in plain English.
I read your post twice and I can not say that what you have said is wrong or worthy of discarding. Same as what you said about the nice buck you shot and then felt no satisfaction. I understand that. I digress
I feel that people who truly believe and give themselves up to the faith have awesome powers to deal with life. I know many who cope with hard things well due to faith. With doubt, questioning and pessimism, comes fear. Balancing science, evolution and faith is a tough course. Hopefully, any higher being that may have created us understands this dilemma that he has planted in us by giving us this crazy brain with a mind that we all have inside our bony skulls
Good perspective Doug
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Post by ozark on Mar 18, 2011 21:41:58 GMT -5
Intellectually much of religious beliefs don't make sense. That a man could live several hours or days in the belly of a fish cannot be bought intellectually. It must be believed on faith that what is written in the bible is fact. The disciples questioned some of what Jesus told them. Thomas doubted what he seen with his own eyes. For many of us it is most difficult to accept that it isn't understandable but believable. It is often said: You just have to believe. How can we believe when intellectually it appears impossible?. I liked the teacher who told her class that the throat of a whale was much to small to swallow a man. A little girl chimed in and said: "when i get to heaven I will ask Jonah." The teacher ask what she would do in Jonah wasn't in heaven. The child didn't miss a beat and said: 'Then you will have to ask him."
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Post by petev on Mar 19, 2011 11:57:50 GMT -5
Wilms, I am by no means a member of the clergy, but it would bother me to not try to answer your earlier post. According to the bible, and the Catholic faith, and probably other Christian faiths, everything that happens, is not always necessarily God's will. That is where free choice comes in. It is possible to choose an evil path that is not God's will, and in fact a person can choose to follow Satan. Revelation talks about it again and again, and what the fate of those will be that follow Satan and the anti-Christ, and what the fate of those will be who are listed in "the book of Life" (those who have been saved). If some churches began to teach a passive type of existence, where everything is pre-decided, and is "God's will", then the Bible and Catholic Church, and therefore I, disagree strongly. It is a great strength of the Christian faith, and the teachings of the Bible, that we have so much room to better ourselves and our lives, or choose to do evil, and have brief gratification, and no relationship with God, either here or after death. And the Bible insists that our belief must be expressed in our works. The non-passive nature of this type of belief gives it so much more meaning and reward to the believer. Biblical examples of this are the Golden Rule, "what you do for the least of your brothers you do also for me", what you do for others will come back to you 1,000 fold, etc. I hope this helps.
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Post by stubblejumper on Mar 19, 2011 13:21:19 GMT -5
My wife has a bumper sticker on her car:
Concerned Student: "Dear God, why do you allow so much violence in public schools?" God: "Dear concerned student: "I am no longer allowed in public schools"
For whatever reason God allows things to happen that are definitely not what he would desire. He does promise to work out all things for the good of those who love him however.
Our pastor has said that if God were to wipe out everything that was evil from the earth, there would be no one left. (We all sin was his point). One day he will, that is in our future home.
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Post by ET on Mar 19, 2011 15:34:20 GMT -5
Wilmsmeyer
Scripture from the Bible “Gods Word” is the foundation my belief is based on. To simply quote something from my head or my own reasoning does not provide me with a leg to stand on.
Ed
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Post by stubblejumper on Mar 19, 2011 17:10:39 GMT -5
ET +1
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Post by petev on Mar 19, 2011 20:14:11 GMT -5
Wilmsmeyer, why not take it (prayers) for a test drive?
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