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Post by twoodard on Feb 4, 2011 15:52:32 GMT -5
So I talked with pete for a little bit yesterday and when he gets around to making plugs again he is going to send me one of the ML-I style plugs for my new project. the doner action has the standard bolt face so I will be using ACP cases. I have a ton of win stuff that I load for 1911. what are you guys using. I dont mind spending the money for really good brass like I do for my custom rifles but if the win stuff is working good Ill get some of that and dedicate it for this gun.
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Post by thelongrider on Feb 4, 2011 19:27:49 GMT -5
On my first Remington 700 build, I bought 500 Federal 45 acp+p nickle cases and after measuring the web on all 500 I came up with one lot of 150 cases within .001" When I trimmed my breechplug to fit these cases and thought I was ready to prime, I found the primers on large rifle are taller than large pistol primers and would not fit flush with the case. I used a primer pocket uniformer for rifle cases to deepen the 45 acp primer pockets. This was a pain in the neck!
I just fit the breechplug on my last Remington build using trb0's breechplug trimming tool ( on loan to me )and Lapua .308 win. brass. I got 61 cases that were dead nuts out of 100. This is super high quality stuff! Using this brass and trb0's method of trimming the breechplug made it much more easy as well as more accurate.
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Post by dave d. on Feb 4, 2011 19:37:06 GMT -5
:)like mike has pointed out acp's were a pain i learned the hard way go with cut down rifle brass.if you get 50 that are the same you are doing good its just the nature of the beast.if you have maching abilitys you could mill them all the same.goodluck with your build.
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Post by twoodard on Feb 4, 2011 19:51:33 GMT -5
thanks. I would hate to cut down some lapua brass for this. but might have to do something. forgot about rifle primers being taller than pistol primers. what is that trimming tool you are talking about?
nevermind, looked it up and its for the remmy.
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Post by killitgrillit on Feb 4, 2011 22:31:11 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I took federal gold medal brass and put them in my lee case trimmer holder and drill adaptor, I made a jig for my drill press and chucked up a 3/8 end mill and went down inside all my case's and made them the same thickness, this is after I made them all .890 oal length. then I headspaced my breechplug to the cases.
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Post by rkrobson on Feb 4, 2011 23:06:19 GMT -5
Ditto on the Lapua cases. Iam having a 1/2" end mill ground to .375" for inside case cutting, and the other end turned to .490 which is my Forester trimmer shaft size. Forester makes a short base and this will work like a trimmer, instead milling the inside case head thickness uniform. I saved all my leftover brass as I bought 500 Lapua, as I have three of the DD Pacnors, 2-45s and 1-50. I'll report on the 50 soon, as I've been shooting the 325 Parker BE a lot. Ray
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Post by twoodard on Feb 5, 2011 12:32:20 GMT -5
ok ill sort first and if needed come up with a way to ream the inner case head. thanks guys
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Post by Richard on Feb 7, 2011 19:12:18 GMT -5
OK, so let me ask a dumb question?  ? (yeah, I know, there is no such thing as a dumb question ;D) So look, I build a lot of CF rifles and know how to head space them. I note that people are questioning the fact that there is a difference in the dimension from the back of the case head to the inner web...........right? My thought is this: In a standard rifle, the manufacturers generally allow up to around .006" of "head space". Of course, the more head space, the longer your cartridge grows each firing. But, the case will fire, safely, with that much clearance. So what is the big deal about getting each case exactly the same? These are not benchrest rifles........they are muzzle loaders. I hardly think a couple of thousandths difference is going to make a bit of difference on the target/critter?? If I have say.............100 cases and the web thickness of all cases is within .006" of each other, then why not head space for the thickest one (so you can close your bolt without it binding) and the thinnest one should also fire? Also, being straight walled cases, there is no shoulder to "grow?" So, what am I missing? Richard |
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Post by killitgrillit on Feb 7, 2011 20:34:17 GMT -5
OK, so let me ask a dumb question? ? (yeah, I know, there is no such thing as a dumb question ;D) So look, I build a lot of CF rifles and know how to head space them. I note that people are questioning the fact that there is a difference in the dimension from the back of the case head to the inner web...........right? My thought is this: In a standard rifle, the manufacturers generally allow up to around .006" of "head space". Of course, the more head space, the longer your cartridge grows each firing. But, the case will fire, safely, with that much clearance. So what is the big deal about getting each case exactly the same? These are not benchrest rifles........they are muzzle loaders. I hardly think a couple of thousandths difference is going to make a bit of difference on the target/critter?? If I have say.............100 cases and the web thickness of all cases is within .006" of each other, then why not head space for the thickest one (so you can close your bolt without it binding) and the thinnest one should also fire? Also, being straight walled cases, there is no shoulder to "grow?" So, what am I missing? Richard Richard, your headspace is set off of the webbing thickness of the case and breach plug and bolt. I agree you could have a few thousand difference and get away with it, but this way the bolt will close the same everytime (pressure to close) and it will help with the sealing ability to prevent blow by. Just being anal I guess ;D |
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Post by rkrobson on Feb 7, 2011 20:46:28 GMT -5
The blowback by is huge, .001 allows a lot soot to enter the plug bolt face and action area, its far worse than I imagined Richard. There also ia a little lost after one firing. I had cases that were marginal on the first firing, although allowing no blowback, and then on the second firing the entire case was sooted black, inside and out. You must feel the bolt close on the plug, kinda like a high pressure centerfire case thats only neck sized for several firings at high pressure. Ray
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Post by Richard on Feb 7, 2011 20:48:04 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply........So, we are saying that we want the end of the BP to be tight up against the web surrounding the flash hole to seal gases? I have never looked close at one of these BP's for the Remington's. Somebody have a good close up?
Thanks
Richard
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Post by thelongrider on Feb 7, 2011 21:26:22 GMT -5
The Breechplug on the left is one of Pete's for the Remington 700  As rkrobson has stated blowby is a problem. My breechplug was trimmed about .0005" crooked and all my cases were blackened half way around. |
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Post by killitgrillit on Feb 7, 2011 21:31:13 GMT -5
Heres a cut out that might help explain it.  |
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Post by rkrobson on Feb 7, 2011 21:47:25 GMT -5
Those are great pictures and show why I believe milling the inside of case head to a flat uniform dimension is the best way to get a good seal, very necessary on higher pressure loads, Ray
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Post by killitgrillit on Feb 7, 2011 22:46:15 GMT -5
Those are great pictures and show why I believe milling the inside of case head to a flat uniform dimension is the best way to get a good seal, very necessary on higher pressure loads, Ray Exactly!!! thats why I did it that way. |
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trb0
8 Pointer
Posts: 211
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Post by trb0 on Feb 8, 2011 18:53:10 GMT -5
Killitgrillit. I made a collar today that holds a 3/8ths end mill and attaches to my RCBS case trimmer but I I have to make a change on it tomorrow at work. Does the end mill leave the brass smooth or are ther ever so slight chatter marks in the brass. Thanks Tim.
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Post by spoonover on Feb 8, 2011 20:04:37 GMT -5
Made one out of a 3/8" drill bit, fashioned into end mill. Had some slight chatter marks, when mic was used it smoothed out marks from getting the reading, so not any concern. Running cutter on the slow speed, seems much better.
Finding out military brass might work, but the primer pocket has to be swagged or opened (no big deal). Brass seems to have more meat to work with.
Is there any reason why a guy could not use any brass as long as it has the rite case head size. Start with a 45ACP and go up to 30-06, even 22-250?
Will keep playing around to see what works. Thinking of grinding a radius on the cutter for a concave affect into the primer area for a better seal?
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Post by killitgrillit on Feb 8, 2011 20:06:31 GMT -5
Killitgrillit. I made a collar today that holds a 3/8ths end mill and attaches to my RCBS case trimmer but I I have to make a change on it tomorrow at work. Does the end mill leave the brass smooth or are ther ever so slight chatter marks in the brass. Thanks Tim. There nice and smooth. |
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Post by spaniel on Feb 8, 2011 20:11:13 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply........So, we are saying that we want the end of the BP to be tight up against the web surrounding the flash hole to seal gases? I have never looked close at one of these BP's for the Remington's. Somebody have a good close up? Thanks Richard Yes. And as I experienced, after a couple firings the tighter ones can loosen up. I will probably re-headspace my barrel soon on the same cases before developing a new load, just to get a tight seal again. |
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Post by Richard on Feb 8, 2011 20:51:33 GMT -5
Thanks for the pictures............they are worth a 1,000 words! OK, now I got the picture.
Spaniel...........so when your re-head space, you are talking about removing the barrel and cutting the shoulder for a tighter fit, right? That could get to be a PITA, no?
Richard
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Post by rkrobson on Feb 8, 2011 21:59:42 GMT -5
Killitgrillit and turb0, Ive been told by a gunsmith that there are cutting oils, etc, that will work on brass and allow for clean milling. Are you guys aware of these and what are they? and do you think they're necessary? In response to Spaniel and reheadspacing, I got two plugs for each of my guns and left one long for future use and or case head thickness changing on new lots of brass. Pete only charges $20 or so for a new nipple and I think thats the way to go, always having one to use, Ray
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Post by Richard on Feb 9, 2011 14:27:06 GMT -5
rkrobson.........are you saying the center piece in that BP that Pete makes is a "replaceable" nipple??? If it is, that is a great idea. I was thinking you would have to cut the shoulder and set the barrel back a few thou. to close the gap inside the web?
Richard
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Post by edge on Feb 9, 2011 15:17:09 GMT -5
Richard the center can be replaced. I designed it that way for ease of manufacturing not for replacing it, but it just worked out that way  edge. |
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Post by Richard on Feb 9, 2011 15:29:05 GMT -5
Thanks Edge..........Your a thinker!  Richard (and you can keep all that NJ snow ;D.........I don't miss it here in NC) |
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Post by moto357 on Feb 10, 2011 1:18:00 GMT -5
have some cases cut down but haven't trimmed the plug for headspacing yet.. any of you fellers be interested in milling the inner web on say 50 of these?
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Post by Richard on Feb 10, 2011 14:53:42 GMT -5
Edge...........Here is a thought...............Suppose (and I don't know the diameter of the end of that nipple?) you went inside the case with a end mill the diameter or just a couple of thousandths bigger than the end of the nipple? Mill it maybe.................I dunno? .020" deep? This would allow the nipple to seat tight inside the web and provide a degree of sealing "around" the tip of the nipple?...........Maybe actually a little deeper than .020"?
Richard
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Post by Jon on Feb 10, 2011 15:09:02 GMT -5
I'm trying to get a bunch of brass done And just though that some others might be interested. If so let me know?
Jon
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Post by edge on Feb 10, 2011 15:10:40 GMT -5
Edge...........Here is a thought...............Suppose (and I don't know the diameter of the end of that nipple?) you went inside the case with a end mill the diameter or just a couple of thousandths bigger than the end of the nipple? Mill it maybe.................I dunno? .020" deep? This would allow the nipple to seat tight inside the web and provide a degree of sealing "around" the tip of the nipple?...........Maybe actually a little deeper than .020"? Richard I use a 209 primer machined into the acp case so do not have that problem I think that the best you can do with a normal case is to sort them, but certainly a machined and uniform flat would be better. If there was going to be a market for this then IMO the boltface should have an O-ring groove machined / EDM'd in it. If say a 3/8 O-ring sat proud by about 0.005 inside the boltface then a few thousandths difference between cases would not matter and they would all seal pretty well. edge. |
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Post by Jon on Feb 10, 2011 15:13:51 GMT -5
Edge good idea. well worth thinking about. Richard I know you miss the snow.
Jon
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Post by twoodard on Feb 11, 2011 18:34:03 GMT -5
Jon what are you planning on doing? making up uniformed brass for us? if so I may be interested
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