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Post by fishhawk on Jan 20, 2011 17:40:11 GMT -5
Installation of "Hunters" Bolt Nose Kit on a 700ML I will try to restore these pictures soon, GO TO REPLY#11, AND USE PDF FILE FOR PICTURES. This is what you get with "Hunters" kit. Firing Pin, Bolt Nose, Drill Bit & spare cross pin. You may want to replace the mainspring. Brownells 767-154-110 Midway 315415 Plastic Weather Shield (pressed on) Twist off with Pliers Weather Shield Removed Locate notch in Firing Pin Head Hook notch in firing pin head on firm edge. (I use 1/8" Aluminum fastened in vise) Pull on shroud to expose slot in firing pin head. Install dime & release pressure. Unscrew bolt off shroud. Clean outer bolt piece especially bore. Bonding area for new bolt head. Mask bolt exterior except bonding area, bead blast tip clean. This may not be neccesary especially on a tight fighting new bolt nose, but I do it to insure a good surface for locktite. Bead Blasted bolt nose area. This is how you want the new nose aligned to the bolt. Align the right edge of primer slot with center of bolt retainer slot. (slot highlighted with masking tape) Red Locktite the bonding area & press in padded vise if needed. Some are loose, some are tight. This is the tool I made for depressing the main spring. 3.2" of 7/16"I.D. tubing. Tapped one end 1/2-13 and Welded 5/16" Bolt across the other end. Lets call it "Tool #1" On tool #1 I drilled a 3/16" Dia. hole centered to the tube through the bolt. Thread Tool#1 on until crosspin exposed, dime will fall out. Drive out crosspin and remove tool #1. Unscrew firing pin from shroud & head using protection if you want to save the old pin. I use a piece of leather. Use a soft jawed vice to hold shroud. Pieces of firing pin assembly. Clean Spring, Shroud & End Piece. Screw in new pin & spring with protected tool until tight. (New Spring?) Install Tool #1 You may need 5/16" nut over pin tip to expose crosspin hole. Put pressure on spring to start tool #1 Drill hole with provided bit. I hold another bit on the other side as a reference for alignment. As the bit goes through pin center if resistance is felt, finish drilling from the other side. Install Crosspin. Remove Tool#1, putting dime in slot. Measure new pin length. This one measured .395" tip to flat of base. Screw pin assembly into bolt body. Remove dime by locking slot on firm edge the same way the dime was installed initially. Dropping pin head into fired position. Making sure pin is in fired position, measure protrusion above primer face. (This one measured .125") Re-install dime and unscrew assembly. .050-.060 is the pin protrusion goal. Math Below .125 protrusion *****.395 Length -.060 goal prot.****-.065 Length Removed Off ---------------- ****------ .065 Off***********.330 Goal Length Cut, grind or file pin down CLOSE to goal length. Re-assemble & Check protrusion. Re-assemble & adjust length a little at a time. When length is right round off the edges of the tip. Lube & Assemble. FINISHED BOLT! Contact "Hunter" on this board. Kits are $85 shipped. He will install the bolt kits if the customer wants this service for $25. Order Info: Fred Arnold 131 Rauch Drive Marietta, OH 45750
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Post by Richard on Jan 20, 2011 19:12:33 GMT -5
Fishawk............Excellent clear photos and very good accompanying descriptions. This should go in the Hints & Tips section for sure. So, my only question is this? It is just the Red Locktite that holds the new primer holder on that protrusion from the bolt??? Could that lend itself to pulling off if a tight primer presented itself? I could see a small "roll pin" being put thru both pieces...............Just as far as the inner area that the firing pin rides in. The hole could actually go all the way thru the entire bolt if need be. The pin would just be for one side allowing the free movement of the firing pin. Should the nose have to be removed, you would take the firing pin out and drive the roll pin completely out the other side of the bolt. Just a thought? Richard
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Post by fishhawk on Jan 20, 2011 21:13:53 GMT -5
Richard, this is only the second one I've done. The first was a slip fit, the second was a .0025 press on, the first could be a problem, that's why I think the bead blasting might help. Hunter may post on this question, I have to contact him anyway I'll alert him of your question.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2011 21:52:02 GMT -5
excellent job, this will come in very useful to many here, maybe for me as well...Bill
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Post by smokeless77 on Jan 20, 2011 22:15:14 GMT -5
Richard, Those were my same thoughts. The nose on the bolt is thin, Only about .0580" not a whole lot to hold on to. I was also thinking use the loctite and, Drill the new nose and tap it for a set screw, which would be countersunk and tightened to the bolt. Just another Idea? (Silver solder?) John
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Post by rossman40 on Jan 20, 2011 23:52:37 GMT -5
You can use the red loctite but a better choice would be a retaining compound like one the 600 series loctite.
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Post by hunter on Jan 21, 2011 6:23:20 GMT -5
Richard, I have shot 3 different 700 ml's with the present set up and have not had any issues with close to1000 rounds thru the three guns. On the 45 I was using some really tight fitting primers that made the bolt lock down extremely hard , for more than 100 rounds. If the press fit is tight as expected I see no problem. If and when the fit is loose due to tolerances with both pieces, a higher grade of locktite or maybe epoxy my be needed. The roll pin idea may be a little tricky for most to install.
smokeless77 The silver solder would be a more permanent fix but would sure fix a loose fit problem.
These are good ideas if the need arises.
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Jan 21, 2011 8:17:04 GMT -5
I just ordered the conversion, and felt uneasy, this helps tremendously. You are the man!
Don
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Jan 21, 2011 9:23:00 GMT -5
Is anyone one here technologically capable of resizing this Instructable where the pics and words will fit on a word document? I have tried, but only get half of the pics. I want to print it out and have it ready for my installation. If you can, please email it to me nwmdt@yahoo.com
I'm just not computer savvy I guess.
Thanks,
Don
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Post by excisac on Jan 27, 2011 7:44:43 GMT -5
Fishhawk, Would you mind if I post a PDF using your photos and description?
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Post by fishhawk on Jan 27, 2011 13:44:56 GMT -5
Go for it!
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Post by excisac on Jan 27, 2011 22:00:23 GMT -5
Here is a PDF file of Fishhawk's tutorial. I sized the photos to fit the page and cropped off some of the unnecessary background leaving the important stuff. The written descriptions were copied/pasted to the appropriate pictures. I thought about adding in some of the information others have added in the subsequent comments such as 600 series loctite and silver solder but i did not do it in the end.
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Feb 1, 2011 14:00:31 GMT -5
Well, just got installed. Very nice piece of engineering actually. I have not shot it yet, but I'm extremely satisfied with the fit and finish.
Thoughts:
1. Kit came with everything but a replacement roll pin for the bolt, not a big deal I managed not to lose the one I punched out.
2. The new nose was a very tight fit, I didn't have use of a vise, so I had to use a nylon head hammer. It took a lot of force to drive it on, the next one I do I will wait 'till I can use the vise.
3. Take your time drilling the dang hole out for the roll pin, I snapped the bit. It grabbed as I was almost through, I should have drilled half way then started from the other side. I had another bit of the same size, so no worries.
4. The nose I got has a recess "channel" where the firing pin comes through, it's not the same as fishhawks pictures. This proved hard to get a measurement of the amount of protrusion from the face of the bolt. I did the best I could, I believe it is right.
Other than that, it's very cool. I will be ordering 3 more over the next few months.
Thanks Fred!!!!
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Post by hoz on Feb 7, 2011 18:28:15 GMT -5
Got my bolt back from hunter today. Looks GREAT!!!!!
Thanks Fred
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 16:42:17 GMT -5
for those of you contemplating a bolt nose kit I must say Fred does a very good job making these.the primer has a much better fit than on the factory savage and they work very well.
cudos also to fishhawk for the good directions on doing the install. all three of mine fit very tight so I doubt very seriously they will ever come off short of a cutting torch....look forward to putting them to work...bill
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Post by johnnywadd on Apr 12, 2011 19:55:00 GMT -5
what happened to the pictures
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Post by hunter on Apr 13, 2011 5:53:18 GMT -5
Johnnywadd, If you go back up this thread about 4 posts to excisac's post and click on the attachment you can see the pictures
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Post by hunter on Feb 20, 2012 16:53:37 GMT -5
TTT for Buster1 go up 5 posts to excisac's post and click on the attachment.
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Post by jeremylong on Feb 28, 2012 21:19:37 GMT -5
Another option, I started using a bolt in a bolt when pressing on the primer carrier. Some are really tight and I get a little nervous pressing on the shroud end.
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Post by fishhawk on Feb 28, 2012 23:16:20 GMT -5
Good idea Jeremy, I am always careful how I press on the shroud end. My biggest fear is breaking the solder/ brass holding the bolt handle on.
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Post by bluedog on Mar 3, 2012 23:50:55 GMT -5
I have a question regarding this 209 bolt nose conversion for the 700 ML. If a fellow wanted to convert his 700ML bolt using the Hunter bolt conversion AND wanted to keep the factory barrel, what plug can be now be used in the factory barrel that will be fully compatible wit the new 209 primed bolt nose? Everyone talks about using this bolt kit in concert with a smokeless barrel swap but what about just keeping the factory barrel in place and use Blackhorn 209 in the 700ML till the money shows up for a new smokeless barrel? Is anyone doing this?
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Post by lakeplainshunter on Mar 4, 2012 5:57:22 GMT -5
I have a question regarding this 209 bolt nose conversion for the 700 ML. If a fellow wanted to convert his 700ML bolt using the Hunter bolt conversion AND wanted to keep the factory barrel, what plug can be now be used in the factory barrel that will be fully compatible wit the new 209 primed bolt nose? Everyone talks about using this bolt kit in concert with a smokeless barrel swap but what about just keeping the factory barrel in place and use Blackhorn 209 in the 700ML till the money shows up for a new smokeless barrel? Is anyone doing this? Hunter sells a very nice breechplug with a ventliner for a stock barrel. He also has a bolt nose kit for "smokers". You can use the smokeless bolt nose kit with his breechplug, but you will need to modify the breechplug by .085". This is the route that I am going with one of my guns as it may get another barrel at a later date.
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 4, 2012 11:10:04 GMT -5
Bluedog, Hunter makes two different bolt nose kits. One is for improving the factory gun used together with his special breechplug that uses a ventliner, this is referred to as the "smoker kit". The boltnose kit for a smokeless conversion is nearly identical, just is .085" longer so the breechplug tip is past the lug for safety. What I have done for several member that thought they wanted to eventually go to smokeless is install the longer smokeless nose and use the "smoker" breechplug but remove .085" from the sealing shoulder of the breechplug and the same amount of the thread nearest the sealing shoulder of the breechplug. The thread has to be removed to keep them from binding before the plug is in place. This way the bolt is smokeless ready for the future.
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Post by Jon on Mar 4, 2012 15:29:46 GMT -5
Just my .02 worth. I think when the hunter kit first came out that is what sort of started the smokeless Rem. thing. Up till then you could buy a Remongton for almost nothing. When the Hunter kit came out and stopped the blow back Remington came into its own. If I'm not mistaken Mountainman has a great smoker bolt B/P kit that works great using a 32 acp. Ignation.
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 4, 2012 15:40:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the info fishhawk! So, the 'smoker' plug has the same threads and size to fit the original Remy barrel and work with an unique (albeit very close to smokeless) version of the bolt nose kit. I can't help but wonder why hunter, or whoever designed the conversion, did not design the 'smoker' plug initially with the same specs that your mod applies to it and then utilize the same bolt nose (smokeless) specs for both 'smoker' and 'smokeless' plugs. What am I missing? The Folks who do this sort of stuff are certainly smarter than me and I assume there is a reason for what is done, but there also seems to be utility in standardization too. What would it require for you to modify my bolt and supply the appropriate breech plug for my rifle? It is my desire to be able to use the rifle with stock barrel for BH209 with minimal/no blow back but have the proper bolt conversion for an eventual smokeless barrel swap if I desire to go that route. Is that reasonable? What about head spacing the new 'smoker' plug? Thanks, Billy I think the "smoker kit" was designed way before anyone had a smokeless barrel built for a 700ML. When Hunter and I think Dave D got together they decided to make a longer one also for a safer smokeless. If someone else was involved I'm sorry I left you out. By doing it where you cut one thread off you do loose that one thread of strength. I think Hunter prefers it stay the two different noses so both designs are at their optimum.
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Post by edwardamason on Mar 4, 2012 17:29:48 GMT -5
Thanks for the info fishhawk! So, the 'smoker' plug has the same threads and size to fit the original Remy barrel and work with an unique (albeit very close to smokeless) version of the bolt nose kit. I can't help but wonder why hunter, or whoever designed the conversion, did not design the 'smoker' plug initially with the same specs that your mod applies to it and then utilize the same bolt nose (smokeless) specs for both 'smoker' and 'smokeless' plugs. What am I missing? The Folks who do this sort of stuff are certainly smarter than me and I assume there is a reason for what is done, but there also seems to be utility in standardization too. What would it require for you to modify my bolt and supply the appropriate breech plug for my rifle? It is my desire to be able to use the rifle with stock barrel for BH209 with minimal/no blow back but have the proper bolt conversion for an eventual smokeless barrel swap if I desire to go that route. Is that reasonable? What about head spacing the new 'smoker' plug? Thanks, Billy What u may find like a lot of us found is there may be no need to go the custom route.
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Post by fishhawk on Sept 5, 2012 16:24:54 GMT -5
Just barely round the edges of the firing pin tip leaving at least 75 pecent of the pin tip flat and keep protrusion at about .065". This will cut down on primer sticking issues.
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Post by dave d. on Feb 18, 2014 14:15:47 GMT -5
Btt
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topprop
Button Buck
make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands
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Post by topprop on Jul 12, 2014 17:47:54 GMT -5
Just bought a couple kits from Hunter (Aka Fred) Good stuff... I so wish I new about this before I bought another vendor's crappy... lots of blow back 209 kit
Does anyone have the part number from Brownells for a new firing pin spring with the hunter kit?
Nevermind I knew I read it somewhere... found it in the PDF above:
"You may want to replace the mainspring.
Brownells 767-154-110
Midway 315415 "
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Post by rio on Mar 19, 2015 14:52:54 GMT -5
Is the original cross pin tapered? I am having a fit getting it out. Bent two pin punches. Just went and bought two heavier duty ones. I can get it to move but not come out.
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